Spearhead and the current Daemonhunters Codex

[Gentlemanloser]

The free download of the full Spearhead rules has got me looking at this expansion again, and I just want to double check myself on a formation.

 

It would seem possible to utilise the 'Mechanised Assault Spearhead' to allow Grey Knight Terminators to ride in Chimeras (with first Turn Outflanking to boot!), as neither the DH TDA entry, nor (unlike the Rhino below it) the Dedicated Transport section for the Chimera give any limitations on embarking TDA into a Chimera.

 

On top of that, the DH Codex misses the usual "Takes up the space of 2 in transport vehilces", so it would also seem you could cram 12 GKT into each Chimera.

 

As in spearhead, Dedicated Transports are chosen as a Heavy slot unit, and without the need to have a unit with them, there would seem to be nothing rules wise to prohibit this.

 

Have I missed anything?

[Frosty the Pyro]

I beleive there is a FAQ that makes GK terminators take up 2 spaces

[Gentlemanloser]

There's nothing I can see in the DH FAQ, the only mention close to is is the change to the Valk in the IG FAQ which was errata-d to not be able to carry Ogryn's with a small mention at the end that the Valk cannot transport Ogryn's or similiar sized units 'such as terminators'.

 

Do Chimera in the IG Codex state they cannot carry Ogryn's? If so, there's a slim case for the the DH Chimeras to not carry Terminators.

 

But it's still from the FAQ of a different Codex...

[Grey Mage]

RAW: theres nothing stopping you.

 

Real World: your more likely to make friends by publicly strangling small furry animals. This is a bad idea. This is close to, though not quite as bad as, declairing that for this battle you will be using the bottom of the die to determine results, because the core book only covers rolling dice, not how to read the pips.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't see the similarity.

 

We have to (until april) suffer from outdated rules (no fire points, no access points, open topped rhinos, over costed points, etc), and due to this, there is a posibility for once, to use it to our advantage.

 

Much like our old Force Weapons.

 

I don't own the IG codex, but if Ogryn can be transported in Chimera's then there's not even RAI to limit Terminators riding in them. The only thing stopping GKT is yet again another out of date rule we're forced to suffer. That Dedicated Transports can not carry any other unit in them.

 

If that rule was to disappear, then our GKT could ride in Chimera's without the need for Spearhead.

 

Edit:

 

After a quick google (so I could have missed something!) I can't find any mention of Ogryn's being unable to ride in Chimer'as, only that they are 'bulky' and take up two places.

 

So no one sohuld have any problems with Terminators riding in Chimeras.

 

If the puppy hurting analogy is with regards to GKT not taking up two slots, well, old rules RAW aside, I'd even contest any RAI arguement that they should. My arguement would be based around the mini's themselves.

 

GKT don't use the normal TDA other Marines do, but an updated 'Aegis' version, which is noticable less 'bulky', which could easily result in them not taking up as much space in transports as thier brethern. :cuss

 

I really don't get the cheese problem here?

 

Edit2: I thought I'd add that I'd never personally push for GKT not counting as 2 slots, especially as it's evident they do, from the GK LR entries. ;)

[Vindicatus]

After looking around, you're going to run into this speedbump :

 

Dedicated transports can only transport the unit that bought it as it's dedicated transport.

 

So the real question is, can GKT's buy a dedicated Chimera? No. Thusly, a unit of them cannot ride in one.

 

However, can a Grey Knight GM in terminator armour attach itself to a unit with a dedicate Chimera and thus ride in it? Yes, taking up two spaces.

 

Edit : After having taken a direct IV of espresso just moments ago, I re-read everything in the thread to make sure I didn't shoot myself in the foot. This one is tricky for a few reasons.

1) GKT's as a unit aren't able to ride in a Chimera, thus I would say 'no'. (as stated above in the whole Dedicated transport section of the C:DH)

2) Codex rules usually supercede all other rules, and because it's not an option for them, I would say 'no'.

3) Spearhead modifies a lot of crap; at what point are you simply allowed to do something and have it not seen as cherrypicking the best of both worlds?

 

In conclusion, I'm with GreyMage on this one. Techinically if you wanted to make the argument, you could, but you're going to get a lot of sour looks from people, and I can almost gaurentee that it WILL be seen as cherrypicking to allow something previously unavailable to the unit.

[Race Bannon]

GKT in a Chimera? That's laughable just imagining it :P Poor suckers. Regardless, I don't think anyone is going to convince you to think otherwise. So as GreyMage said:

 

RAW: theres nothing stopping you.

 

So, go for it and have fun :D Let us know how it goes!

[Gentlemanloser]

:P

 

I imagine if my group does start to play Spearhead, I'll be thrashed by the Falcon/Prism/Nightspinner Eldar spam. :P

 

But first turn, outflanking, GKT. Tasty! Shame Chimera's aren't Assault vehicles! (Edit: And Scoring!)

 

Dedicated transports can only transport the unit that bought it as it's dedicated transport.

 

So the real question is, can GKT's buy a dedicated Chimera? No. Thusly, a unit of them cannot ride in one.

 

It's the Spearhead rules. Dedicated Transports aren't dedicated transports in Spearhead. They're Heavy Slot choices that are taken without an attached unit.

 

When selected as part of a spearhead, dedicated

transports count as Heavy Support units instead, and

therefore are selected without a transported unit.

 

Add to the the rules for the Mech Assault Spearhead for choosing units;

 

you must take one unit of

any type, from one or more entries in the army

list, that can transported in the vehicle.

 

I suppose the next question is do units that form a Spearhead still count towards your usuall FoC amounts? I couldn't see any clarification of this in the downloaded rules.

[Grey Mage]

No, they take up one of your spearhead slots- as detailed in the spearhead rules. Much like how a dedicated transport and its assigned unit take up a single FOC slot, IG infantry squads, etc.

 

And Im sorry, personal opinion- but outdated rules and the occasional wargear issue doesnt make munchkin style shenanigans like terminators in a chimera- model size or not- anything other than shenanigans in the end. I understand the frustration, SW players went without an updated codex longer than the GKs you may recall, but I dont think that means you should go out of your way to lower your own integrity to something that is so obviously an exploit. I couldnt justify it to myself personally, and I would have a hard time enjoying the game as the player behind such a force.

 

Still, it is your army and your game- youll do what you want, and thats each players own choice. If you really think that this is kosher then by all means, forge ahead.

[Gentlemanloser]

I still don't get why you think it's an exploit, when the Spearhead rule clearly states *any* unit.

 

Terminators can be transported in Chimera. Legally and currently (I can give a single example if people wish). That's not an exploit. And it's certainly not munchkin/beardy/cheesy.

 

No where close to some of the shenangians that can be pulled off in the newer Codexes.

 

So why should a 'legal' Spearhead Formation be?

[Vindicatus]

Because many people see this as a 'Surprise-buttsex', min/max to the nth degree move, myself included. Many of the RAW issues in our codex I skate around (force weapons 'slaying outright' versus 'causing Instant Death' for instance) because what it's going to do is completely surprise your opponent for one (normally not a bad thing but..), and for two, you then have to explain to him the cheese behind it.

 

Having a little gift in store for whoever stops in front of my Crusader unknowing if my GKGM is hiding away in there, or he'll deepstrike in from off the table the next turn? While it's usually nice to tell an opponent where things are in which vehicle, you don't necessarily have to, like you would be obligated to show him your list.

 

This is using an older Codex ruleset to bend, if not break, the ethics of the Spearhead ruleset set far ahead of it in order to gain a rather blatant advantage.

 

Then again, you're parking a GKT terminator squad in a rolling tin coffin. Good luck making it more than a foot away from the table edge with everyone intact; if people were smart, especially with how C:DH has this weird ability to cut through the cheese of current codices with bizarre surprises, they'd know something was up and flay the thing where it stood.

 

Still standing by GM in how I couldn't, in sound mind and personal ethics, sit behind an army with this sort of tactic in mind.

[Gentlemanloser]

Really?

 

This is some kind of devious suprise?

 

Using a Transport to transport a unit it's not denied to transport.

 

Wow..

[Frosty the Pyro]

Really?

 

This is some kind of devious suprise?

 

Using a Transport to transport a unit it's not denied to transport.

 

Wow..

 

 

Note that the mechinized assault rule says "you must take one unit of any type, from one or more entries in the army list, that can be transported in the vehicle.

 

The rules of Deamon huntes say that your units can only ride in a dedicated transport that is dedicated to them. Chimerias are a dedicated transport.

 

Grey KnightTerminators do not have the option to have a chimeria dedicated to them.

 

Grey Knight Terminators do not qualify as a unit "that can be transported in the vehicle."

[Gentlemanloser]

Grey Knight Terminators do not qualify as a unit "that can be transported in the vehicle."

 

That's incorrect.

 

GKT can be transported in Chimeras. They just can't embark another DH's unit dedicated Chimera (Muh in the same way they can't embark into another DH;s units Land Raider. But they can still be transported in Land Raiders).

 

As I allued to above, there is a totally curent legitimate way for GKT to be transported in Chimeras.

 

So, the Spearhead requirement is satisfied.