Black Rage, Death Company and Logistics

[Quixus]

It seems that the Blood Angels go through a lot of hassle for their Brothers lost to the Black Rage.

 

First, on the eve of battle they are separated from the rest and either clad in new black armour or their armour is painted black. Then they go out to fight and either die or are killed by Astorath.

 

The Codex even goes as far as saying that the Angels Encarmine have around 30 DC warriors most of the time. Wouldn't that mean that after each battle the Chapter would be reduced by 30? Shouldn't it have wiped itself out in the last 10 millennia?

 

Moreover since Marines are in a state of near constant warfare, how does Astorath keep up with the killing?

 

Shouldn't the redemption of the lost only take place at the end of a campaign or other longer engagement?

[Haunter!]

I doubt that Astorath jets over to a successor as soon as they finish a battle to mop up the remains of the fallen. I'm sure he has a list and deals with them when he can.

 

From what I've read, those fallen that fail to die gloriously in battle are locked away until a proper execution can be dealt. Take, for example, the short story "At Gaius Point." The Flesh Tearers were taking a brother that fell back with them so that he may either be confined (possibly to be added to the Death Company properly for a future engagement) or executed. I highly doubt it's possible to slay them after every skirmish with the enemy.

[Demoulius]

IIRC the death company are indeed kept in statis after battles if they dident die (and astaroth isent around to pop some heads :rolleyes: ) take Lemartes as an example :woot:

[Quixus]

I doubt that Astorath jets over to a successor as soon as they finish a battle to mop up the remains of the fallen. I'm sure he has a list and deals with them when he can.

 

From what I've read, those fallen that fail to die gloriously in battle are locked away until a proper execution can be dealt. Take, for example, the short story "At Gaius Point." The Flesh Tearers were taking a brother that fell back with them so that he may either be confined (possibly to be added to the Death Company properly for a future engagement) or executed. I highly doubt it's possible to slay them after every skirmish with the enemy.

It would make a lot more sense to put them in stasis between battles or otherwise restrain them, but the Codex says otherwise:

Those few members of the Death Company that survive the battle perish soon afterwards, either of their fearsome wounds or through the mercy of the Redeemer of the Lost, whose duty it is to end their suffering.

 

Only special characters (Lemartes, Mephiston) and Dreadnoughts seem to get a pass. Except for Dreadnoughts Stasis is not mentioned.

 

Astorath however is indeed responsible for all the Successor Chapter's Lost as well:

Whilst officially bound to the Blood Angels, Astorath's duties carry him far and wide amongst the Chapter's successors. It was long ago considered that these terrible duties were best borne by a single brother and, thus far at least, a single brother has been equal to the task at hand. So does Astorath tread the stars, seeking those who require his blessing of oblivion

[Demoulius]

that bit of fluff kinda irks me tbh...surely there are times when several succesors and/or the blood angels themselves are fighting simultaniously? how is he supposed to be everywhere at once? :(

[TheMouth]

that bit of fluff kinda irks me tbh...surely there are times when several succesors and/or the blood angels themselves are fighting simultaniously? how is he supposed to be everywhere at once? ;)

 

 

This is 40k, so the only logical answer I can give you is....magic. or warptime. :P

[Brother Nathan]

and thats why his fluff is crap. seriously hes banned from being anywhere near my storm angels with orders to shoot him on sight. it would have been better to have the chaplins able to fufil that role. or at least have one of them per chapter. but one guy going round the entire imperium looking for death co to kill. and wehn does he have time to fufil his position of high chaplin? grrr. also it screws up the whole tower thing cause we just used to put anyone who fell to the flaws in the tower. now the tower gets those who fall to the thirst and the ragers get the axe...? also astros rules conflicta bit, he kills dc, and where he goes theres more likely to be dc, go stand in a corner then and stop making people angry... i love his rules but his fluff is more screwed up than mepheson....

 

anyway ignore him just say your brothers hide most of their dc from them and put them in stasis when not in use and release them into the fires of war when nessiary. and occasionally stick a few in a tower somewhere. And they are gonna be transported to baal for the last battle. hmm wonder how many are in those towers....10k years since horus, must be quite a few....

[shatter]

The only way to make it (the up to 30 not dying because of black rage per battle) work is with stasis or the black rage death company induction is the beginning of a process that ends with the battlefield death or euthanasia of the afflicted. Ie. It could take years to be considered 'fallen' to the black rage and their personalities considered lost.

 

Before battle:

Is he ragey? Yep?

Induct him.

 

After battle:

Has he calmed down to manageability? Yep?

Okay, ferry him to the cruiser and stick him in his sarcophagus and set it to hibernate.

 

After battle II: Has he calmed down to manageability? Hell no! He's eating my foot.

Okay, oh, here's Astorath... hey, how'd he know? *BEHEADS*

Nice swing there... 5 handicap?

[Quixus]

Makes a lot more sense like that.

[Red Fury]

Ha that was pretty good Shatter, and I imagine it is supposed to happen that way too.

 

Before Matt Ward's codex, the DC stayed together and fought from battle to battle trying to find their glorious death on the battlefield before going completely insane from the Black Rage. Only those that went completely mad and suffered from the Red Thirst were locked up in the tower and hid from the rest of mankind. I always thought of the two as very separate afflictions and the Red Thirst being the worst of the two.

 

But Matt changed all that so what do I know... ^_^

[Demoulius]

The only way to make it (the up to 30 not dying because of black rage per battle) work is with stasis or the black rage death company induction is the beginning of a process that ends with the battlefield death or euthanasia of the afflicted. Ie. It could take years to be considered 'fallen' to the black rage and their personalities considered lost.

 

Before battle:

Is he ragey? Yep?

Induct him.

 

After battle:

Has he calmed down to manageability? Yep?

Okay, ferry him to the cruiser and stick him in his sarcophagus and set it to hibernate.

 

After battle II: Has he calmed down to manageability? Hell no! He's eating my foot.

Okay, oh, here's Astorath... hey, how'd he know? *BEHEADS*

Nice swing there... 5 handicap?

seems most likely as well. marines are a far to powerfull commodity (specialy our death company) to kill them off after a SINGLE battle... mind you if were talking about a planet here and theyre set loose i can totally see them kicking the bucket somewhere as their rage induced state leads them into traps and into open areas against battle cannons ^_^

 

 

 

anyway ignore him just say your brothers hide most of their dc from them and put them in stasis when not in use and release them into the fires of war when nessiary. and occasionally stick a few in a tower somewhere. And they are gonna be transported to baal for the last battle. hmm wonder how many are in those towers....10k years since horus, must be quite a few....

lol love the mental image. *que clash of the titans theme* release....the couple of thousand mad men from the tower!

 

*insert tidal wave of death company marines* :mellow:

[Ander00]

also astros rules conflicta bit, he kills dc, and where he goes theres more likely to be dc, go stand in a corner then and stop making people angry...

Well, fluff-wise it's supposed to be the other way around and he just happens to be where there are more DC. Since he only kills those who are no longer fit to fight, he'll do his job after the battle. Other than that, I mostly agree. I'm not a fan of his either.

 

 

cheers

[BOBMAKENZIE]

This is why Astorath gets a big Background Thumbs down. Whats the point of the Amero procedure? (Did I get the right name?) where the chaplain ties them down and then gets them to recount what they see until they have an aneurism. If Astorath just wanders about killing them all? This is why we cant cure this stuff ;)

[Br0ther Rafen]

Really, this is one of the major reasons as to why I have stopped playing BA (aside from my orginal army being completly nerfed :lol:)

The fluff throughout the entire codex is just a complete disgrace. It really is, with lots of plot holes and just stupid :lol: pretty much everywhere. It really annoys me, to say the least ;) Emperor, I wish Phil Kelly did our codex.

[ashen]

I generally am not a fan of Mat, but rules wise I think he did really well, fluff wise, not as good. I simply ignore the whole Astorath wanders the galaxy killing DC thing. I much prefer the previous ed fluff about locking DC up and bringing them out to fight. I mean, why destroy an extremely valuable resource, let them die with honour in battle!

[Gv0zD]

I generally am not a fan of Mat, but rules wise I think he did really well, fluff wise, not as good. I simply ignore the whole Astorath wanders the galaxy killing DC thing. I much prefer the previous ed fluff about locking DC up and bringing them out to fight. I mean, why destroy an extremely valuable resource, let them die with honour in battle!

 

This. Seconded.

 

 

The DC marines are not lepers, and they don't need anyone to end their sufferings. They deserve an honourable death, and slaying them Astorath-style is disgrace imho. So I just ignore the lines regarding him traveling and chopping heads. 

 

Lemmy asked for prolonged service and was granted it, so why didn't others?

[TrentL]

I always thought and I pretend the fluff is that even among the DC when they start to fall to the Rage they become too hard to handle, that even their crazy brethren are looking at them sideways... when a warrior perhaps even taps into the Primarch and becomes too difficult to deal with too powerful, to crazy, astroth shows up and puts an end to him.

 

Either way I like the Idea of Astorath... but they did leave some major holes in his fluff mainly about the whole "Where he goes there are more signs of the Black Rage"

 

I would have much preferred something like "Astorath is the only chaplain who has some semblance of control over the DC, and he has been known to lead entire Comanies of DC to their Glorius death when he finds too many to deal with individually. Astorath's flag ship has massive amounts of stasis chambers in which he keeps DC that can be used in battle, and during the worst wars where the BA need shock troops to grind the enemy down, Astorath is called in to unleash the might which is the Death Company."

 

I'm lousy at writing but something like that.

[Demoulius]

throw moar dots! death company marines!

[Brother Nathan]

I always thought and I pretend the fluff is that even among the DC when they start to fall to the Rage they become too hard to handle, that even their crazy brethren are looking at them sideways... when a warrior perhaps even taps into the Primarch and becomes too difficult to deal with too powerful, to crazy, astroth shows up and puts an end to him.

 

Either way I like the Idea of Astorath... but they did leave some major holes in his fluff mainly about the whole "Where he goes there are more signs of the Black Rage"

 

I would have much preferred something like "Astorath is the only chaplain who has some semblance of control over the DC, and he has been known to lead entire Comanies of DC to their Glorius death when he finds too many to deal with individually. Astorath's flag ship has massive amounts of stasis chambers in which he keeps DC that can be used in battle, and during the worst wars where the BA need shock troops to grind the enemy down, Astorath is called in to unleash the might which is the Death Company."

 

I'm lousy at writing but something like that.

 

 

that would have been far better.

[Plague Angel]

I always thought and I pretend the fluff is that even among the DC when they start to fall to the Rage they become too hard to handle, that even their crazy brethren are looking at them sideways... when a warrior perhaps even taps into the Primarch and becomes too difficult to deal with too powerful, to crazy, astroth shows up and puts an end to him.

 

Either way I like the Idea of Astorath... but they did leave some major holes in his fluff mainly about the whole "Where he goes there are more signs of the Black Rage"

 

I would have much preferred something like "Astorath is the only chaplain who has some semblance of control over the DC, and he has been known to lead entire Comanies of DC to their Glorius death when he finds too many to deal with individually. Astorath's flag ship has massive amounts of stasis chambers in which he keeps DC that can be used in battle, and during the worst wars where the BA need shock troops to grind the enemy down, Astorath is called in to unleash the might which is the Death Company."

 

I'm lousy at writing but something like that.

 

 

that would have been far better.

Eh... I disagree.

 

Really the only dumb part is that "all Death Company in the galaxy, all the time, his responsibility" thing. It's just too impossible. The only necessary change to Asto's fluff is letting every successor Chapter have their own Redeemer of the Lost. Maybe trained by him, but that's it.

 

Trent's suggestion is — well, there's nothing wrong with it. But it's a completely different thing than what we have. It's not Astorath, it's a completely different character. I'll call him High Chaplain Not-storath.

 

Not-storath would have been cool, sure. But whether he's better than Astorath is pretty subjective.

 

...Fluff aside, I adore Astorath's rules.

[Quixus]

Really the only dumb part is that "all Death Company in the galaxy, all the time, his responsibility" thing. It's just too impossible. The only necessary change to Asto's fluff is letting every successor Chapter have their own Redeemer of the Lost. Maybe trained by him, but that's it.

Well I also find the idea of repainting the armor of someone, who just started to froth at the mouth and wants to rip anyone's arms off to beat him to death with while having this movie of the Siege of Terra in his heads, pretty stupid as well; especially since no sedation or other method of restraint is mentioned.

 

BTW what happens to the armor once the marine is dead? Will it be repainted and given to a new initiate? I don't know if the armor's machine spirit will be fine with it, it's a lot of repainting in a short amount of time. According to the Deathwatch fluff, Its members leave one shoulder pad in the original colors as to not anger the spirit.

[Gv0zD]

BTW what happens to the armor once the marine is dead? Will it be repainted and given to a new initiate? I don't know if the armor's machine spirit will be fine with it, it's a lot of repainting in a short amount of time. According to the Deathwatch fluff, Its members leave one shoulder pad in the original colors as to not anger the spirit.

If they manage to die in battle, the armor is likely to be destroyed (DC would not die from a single bolt wound :) ). If the DC is killed by Asto, I think the armor would be repainted and the tech-marines would perform the necessary rites to calm the enraged machine-spirit. In a world of religious-technology I think the refitting of the armor would take a lot of time and effort. My 0,02$.

[Quixus]

(DC would not die from a single bolt wound ^_^ ).

But from a single power fist/melta shot to the exposed head. :D

[Emperors Immortals]

Id always just assumed that DC died from there condition either through battle or through exertion shortly after.

 

Astoroth has been used a few times by me, hes a great character but horrible fluff.

 

I can see him dealing with the worst of the afflicted (esp old school red thirst) and running the containment program, but not personally dispatching with every surviving DC.

 

Besides, its our sacred religious duty to make sure DC members can die in battle - gloriously.

[Demoulius]

tbh with the way some of the death company marines are afflicted i can totally see them turning on their brothers if theyre to far gone, in which case i dont see it unlikely that they will defend themselves and dispatch of the DC marine(s) themselves if Astaroth is in warpspace somewhere picking his nose ;)