Ashur Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 This question came to me after reading Prospero Burns. Like the book or not, Dan Abnett clearly create a new and more serious fluff for the space wolves, beyond their usual viking theme. I tend to think that WS suffer the same problem. Perhaps because both legions are heavily influenced by historical cultures. This give them a potentialy cartoonish image, more so than others legions. This bothers me because I tend to like them both. So know that the wolves were described in depth, I was wondering what could happened with WS when they get their own HH novel. I would like to hear your opinions. What would you do to turn WS into Astartes and Jaghatai Khan into a Primarch instead of just mongolians in space? What make them unique compared to other legions ? Every legion is based on their Primarch, so what kind of man Jaghatai is ? Stop calling them all Khan wouldd be a good but insufficient start. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Personally, I like the "Whire Scars" as Mongolians in space, maybe expand the background seem so they arn't just clear cut copies, but all in all, as long as the theme is kept, I'll be happy whatever comes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 "Whire Scars" ? What are you talking about ? ;) I'm not saying the mongolian aspect should dissapear. But then again, is their anything else about them beside that cultural influence at this moment ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Not really, from what I remember of IA article, just steppe nomad types, overthrow civilized tyrant type, Big E comes, trades in horses for motorcycles, and off to the stars a pillagin' they go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Smitty Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 (In his best Shatner voice) KKKKHHHHHHAAAAANNNNN!!!!!!!! I could not help myself Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Gladius Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 The bikes thing annoys me. Its like any deployment must involve a drive up to the battle, then they all get off and hide their bikes. Just sounds a bit forced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 The bikes thing annoys me. Its like any deployment must involve a drive up to the battle, then they all get off and hide their bikes. Just sounds a bit forced. The dragoons of old are frowning at you. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 They are much more than bikes and mongols, fluff wise and game wise They can take anything other than Dreadnoughts, the old stupid rule banning Devastators has gone now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I cannot wait for a White Scars novel, I just have this image and feeling that Jaghatai is going to be awesome! The White Scars favour fast, mobile lightning warfare. A lot like the Blitzkrieg I'd imagine. So that doesn't necessarily mean they swap horses for bikes, employing lots of Rhinos (argument for them having fast Rhinos' could be made here), Land Speeders, Jump Pack troops and a lot of tanks in general. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Taking down a Tau city wall would be the most fluffy thing an author could do for the White Scars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Gladius Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I meant more in the BL books so far (volodorious and the short peice in legends), the inclusion of bikes to match their table top tactics seems forced, just my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseDaMoose Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Taking down a Tau city wall would be the most fluffy thing an author could do for the White Scars. Like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 What's wrong with Mongolians in space? Hopefully a White Scars book will copy the format of Prospero Burns and bring forth the rich culture and historical themes. When you actualy study the Mongolains and Ghengis Khan the stereotypes evaporate and the truth is far, far more interesting. The Mongolians had a rich, vibrant culture where very inteligent and made use of modern echnology (for the day). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 What's wrong with Mongolians in space? Hopefully a White Scars book will copy the format of Prospero Burns and bring forth the rich culture and historical themes. When you actualy study the Mongolains and Ghengis Khan the stereotypes evaporate and the truth is far, far more interesting. The Mongolians had a rich, vibrant culture where very inteligent and made use of modern echnology (for the day). Couldn't agree more. I'm currently reading Conn Iggulden's series of novels on Genghis Khan, and if a BL author could successfully translate the culture represented in these into a 30/40k "mongols in space", we'd have much more than simple barbarians who ride stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boltergeist Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [note: I play White Scars-- 4000 or so points worth, and have since 3rd ed, so I may be a bit biased :jaw: ] To me the WS have suffered from inconsistent storytelling from day one, and this has skewed people's perceptions of them. The IA article removed their devastators and dreads, the old Epic rules did the same, 4th ed took away their tanks and transports but gave BACK the devastators... etc. To me that's all silly. Just because they prefer a certain type of warfare, doesn't mean they don't have codex astartes training and access to what a mission demands. Dreadnoughts serve a direct battlefield purpose, and are no more tactically unwieldy than terminators and so forth, especially given that they can use drop pods and won't be walking to battle. Same deal with Devastators-- they are no better or worse than tactical marines. But, I digress. Their doctrine is Hit and Run, visualized and I assume inspired by the Mongol theme. They are not assault-based in the way BA and SW are-- it's more about attacking the enemy's weak points, and robbing them of their strengths while limiting reprisals. They do it with speed and maneuverability (or more specifically, using the right tool for the job). Fast units flank, isolate, and destroy slower moving enemy units by moving into range long enough to destroy their target and then move away again. Anything that moves fast is neutralized by Devastators and tank support. The enemy can't get to grips and so their power is wasted, and the WS force can quickly reform in the middle of a battle to apply overwhelming force to selected points of the enemy line. Granted this is somewhat hard to reflect in the scale of 40k and a lot of it happens in my imagination, but I like the idea regardless. In any case, I'd like the books to show that aspect of them, and differentiate them better from the other chapters by how their ethos works on the battlefield. It's not "we ride bikes in so we can get into close combat" like a lot of people think-- it's very different but equally (if not more) effective. Much more of a fencing than a broadsword approach IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2646809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweentheLines Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I remember reading somewhere that Horus was expecting the WS especially Jaghatai Khan to turn during the Siege of Terra but for whatever reason he did not. Perhaps some of his forces did turn and Jaghatai stamped out the traitors or maybe he was playing Horus? I'd like to see more of that or just their personality expanded more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I agree...the poor white scars are a bit neglected which is a shame as they are actually a very good chapter (if only white wasnt so hard to paint!!!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 I remember reading somewhere that Horus was expecting the WS especially Jaghatai Khan to turn during the Siege of Terra but for whatever reason he did not. Perhaps some of his forces did turn and Jaghatai stamped out the traitors or maybe he was playing Horus? I'd like to see more of that or just their personality expanded more. You will find that in the Horus heresy collected visions. I don't know if we can find it in the HH novels. it would be a good way to expand Jaghatai character and relations with the Emperor and his brothers. Right know, WS tend to be described as SW but without their lighter side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 When the HH book comes out for the White Scars I hope it's ALOT better then Hunt for Valdorious was. The whole "The tiger squats in the forest" bit as cold talk was retarded, instead of having your battle code be cheesy haiku rejects use the language of Mundus Planus. I've always like the WS (it seems alot of SW players also like the WS), one of my favorite parts of Descent of Angels was when they met up with the WS fleet and where having a conversation with the Captain. Personally the drawing of The Great Khan by Aerion the Faithful put a new spin that I would like to see in the chapter which incorperates various differant aspects of asian culture behind a Mongol/Hun mask and I think to an extint this already exists in the White Scars fluff with the fact that their Fortress Monastery is located in the Khum Karta (I think that's how it's spelled) mountains which to me brings to mind Tibet and Buddhist temples. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Short answer: Nope. Currently about as shallow as a kiddy pool. Take a Codex Chpater, add one tactical/strategic preference for blitzkrieg and hit and run style warfare, mince a dash of "Mongolian-esque" in, blend vigorously and voila. You have White Scars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 [note: I play White Scars-- 4000 or so points worth, and have since 3rd ed, so I may be a bit biased :rolleyes: ] To me the WS have suffered from inconsistent storytelling from day one, and this has skewed people's perceptions of them. The IA article removed their devastators and dreads, the old Epic rules did the same, 4th ed took away their tanks and transports but gave BACK the devastators... etc. To me that's all silly. Just because they prefer a certain type of warfare, doesn't mean they don't have codex astartes training and access to what a mission demands. Dreadnoughts serve a direct battlefield purpose, and are no more tactically unwieldy than terminators and so forth, especially given that they can use drop pods and won't be walking to battle. Same deal with Devastators-- they are no better or worse than tactical marines. But, I digress. Their doctrine is Hit and Run, visualized and I assume inspired by the Mongol theme. They are not assault-based in the way BA and SW are-- it's more about attacking the enemy's weak points, and robbing them of their strengths while limiting reprisals. They do it with speed and maneuverability (or more specifically, using the right tool for the job). Fast units flank, isolate, and destroy slower moving enemy units by moving into range long enough to destroy their target and then move away again. Anything that moves fast is neutralized by Devastators and tank support. The enemy can't get to grips and so their power is wasted, and the WS force can quickly reform in the middle of a battle to apply overwhelming force to selected points of the enemy line. Granted this is somewhat hard to reflect in the scale of 40k and a lot of it happens in my imagination, but I like the idea regardless. In any case, I'd like the books to show that aspect of them, and differentiate them better from the other chapters by how their ethos works on the battlefield. It's not "we ride bikes in so we can get into close combat" like a lot of people think-- it's very different but equally (if not more) effective. Much more of a fencing than a broadsword approach IMO. I agree they should have access to everything EXCEPT dreads, and this isn't a tactical decision so much as a cultural one. The White Scars have the 'freedom of the steppes' in their blood and the idea of being entombed doesn't sit well with them. It's along the lines of Black Templars refusing to fight along 'witches' or the Wolves refusing to teleport 'cause of their ingrained fear of such trickery. It's cool and it adds to their persona. If you want a dread, there's roughly 999 other chapters to choose from. Astartes aren't just technologically advanced soldiers that utilize all types of warfare. They're more akin to religious fanatic college frat houses that stubbornly refuse to change their traditions... And, that's why they're awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culebras Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 There isn't a HH book out yet, but if you are looking for flavor for your White Scars army, I would suggest picking up "the hunt for voldorius" by Andy Hoare. The book focuses heavily on modern White Scar warfare, including their unique battle cant and customs. The book shows them to be a very proud but intelligent and fierce warrior people who employ flanking attacks, suprise, and scouts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I would suggest picking up "the hunt for voldorius" by Andy Hoare. Except that book is evil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2647829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandmaster Anaziel Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I cannot wait for a White Scars novel, I just have this image and feeling that Jaghatai is going to be awesome! The White Scars favour fast, mobile lightning warfare. A lot like the Blitzkrieg I'd imagine. So that doesn't necessarily mean they swap horses for bikes, employing lots of Rhinos (argument for them having fast Rhinos' could be made here), Land Speeders, Jump Pack troops and a lot of tanks in general. I completely agree. White Scars=Blitzkrieg on wheels! XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2648168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical Cricket Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Savage Scars is coming out this March as well. I personally am looking forward to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221497-are-the-white-scars-more-than-just-mongolians-in-space/#findComment-2648199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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