Have the 30k stories ruined the 40k stories?

[Valkyrion]

Has no one read the bible?

There are those who believe every single little thing to be 100% truth, and those who take it as a message to be interpreted, and those who sit somewhere in between.

 

I know we're not really allowed to talk about the bible, but the HH draws certain parallels in that some things are 100% undeniable FACT and other things are complete conjecture from an outside, but supposedly trusted source and it is up to the reader to discern the meanings, intentions and truths.

 

If you take everything as fact, or canon, from either volume you'll end up tremendously confused.

 

Perhaps the saddest part of the HH is that we all know what is going to happen. Imagine a 'real life' 40k world where the Horus Heresy had never existed and was only being revealed to us through this series, three books a year. We wouldn't know who was a traitor or the rest of details and then the lines of canon would be fuzzy.

'There is no canon' means the canon is mutable, always changing, evolving, being added to.

[eyeslikethunder]

Just time for a breif reply. The major points for my stance do not come from TFH, but Tales of the Heresy - The Last Church.

 

A quick quote from the Emperor

 

Uriah - 'Then I hope you have foreseen the consequences of a world bereft of religion.'

Emperor - 'I have,' replied the emperor. 'It is my dream. An Imperium of Man that exists without recourse to gods and the supernatural. A united galaxy with Tera at its heart.'

 

There is a ton more in that story if you like.

 

Additionally, the conversation in Mechanicum is on pages 137-139.

 

'I believe the Emperor is a great man, a visionary man, a man of science, and reason, who has knowledge greater then the sum total of the Mechanicum,' 'but I believe that he is despite all that, just a man. His mastery of technology and refutation of superstition and religion should be a shining beacon guiding the union of Imperium and Mechanicum towards the future, but many on Mars are willfully blind to this, determined to ignore the evidence before them. Instead they embrace their blind faith in an ancient, non-existent god closer to their chest then ever before.'

 

Now, this is obviously an in character point of view, but the Emperors own stance is fairly well document in both TFH and TlC (the last church), so the quote from Mechanicum just serves to reinforce that the Emperors stance is well known throughout the Imperium. There is another short story where this is brought up, I think with the Sisters of Silence where one is shocked to hear the other refer to the Emperor as 'God-Emperor', highlighting the incoming schism to be found in the loyal followers of the Emperor, in addition to the split in the HH forces.

 

EDIT: Seems obvious to me that you want a God-Emperor, who is a force for good, but I really dont think the setting supports that conclusion. You refer a few times to not liking a nihilistic (Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief?) version of 40k but I really think that is already what we had, prior to any HH novels.

 

The Emperor didnt want a religious following, this is known from the IA on the Word Bearers if not earlier, morality in 40k is a grim thing indeed, where if its not in the interests of the state, its either meaningless at best, or heresy/treason at worst no?

 

But it goes on to reveal at the end of the book that the Big E started the Machine god faith. When defeated the Silver dragon and placed him on mars. He used it to create create mars as a world of Technology so he would have this to help him conquer the universe. He allows the Machine God is the emperor belief to help him rule mars. He does not crush this belief after unification. He also shows her a terrible future a desperate struggle by humanity to survive with a thin path to survival. This is not the glorious future hes been telling everyone is coming up. This suggests his planned future is not as great he as he is suggesting to get everyone on side and he not opposed to using religion when it suits his needs.

 

I think this is described as the great lie. She is left as guardian of this lie and the Silver Dragon.

[Pall Ironbear]

This sums up GW's canon pretty well: http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

 

I'd really like to be able to read that, but seeing as the ads on that site block out half the article, it's unlikely to happen. :P

 

The trouble with the 30K/40K universe, as far as I see it, is that it isn't historical fact. But we as the fans get so immersed in the reality of it, that it gets treated as such. It's only fact is; it's a work of fiction to help provide background for a game (heretical I know, but hey, this is the right section for it :P ). As more creative talent joins the fold, their ideas about how that world works will cause it to evolve. Sometimes for the better, sometimes worse.

 

The difference between the canon/lore/fluff of the RT days and now, for me coming back to it after a ten year lay off, is a marked one. Now we have people asking how bad the two "Lost" first founding chapters must have been. I'm sure, back in the RT days, it was just a way for the game's design team to leave space for the player to create his own legion. One space for the heretic, one imperial. Now that there has been more foundings than there are bolter rounds in the 40K universe, it's a redundant concept, as far as the original intention goes. Just one example of new input altering the 'reality's' dynamics.

 

So, to answer the original question...the HH novels haven't ruined 40K for me, just made it far more interesting to see all the other viewpoints.

It certainly provides a great source of discussion (as seen on this very thread) and entertainment. Especially when someone's nerd-rage kicks in at the local GW store :lol:

[Fei Yuki]

I won't exactly say the 30k ones "ruined" the 40k stories, since to me, the Horus Heresy basically shaped the Imperium to what it is today, and gave us Chaos SMs (helllooo Night Lords!). Stuffs were more (imo) glorious back then, the crusades, the primarchs, the Legions ...etc, rather than the repeat ad nausem "see-chaos/xenos-fry-em-in-the-name-of-the-Emperor" stuffs.

 

Personally, for 40k fictions, I'd like to see more Chaos being featured, as in standalone works like Soul Hunter/Storm of Iron, rather as random canon fodder / opponents.

[jaxjace]

Not at all,

 

I have to really force my way through ANYTHING after fulgrim in the HH series.

Space wolf and then ultramarines started me off and i have liked most of my 40K with the obvious exception to the blood angels, and salamanders that im just gonna say didnt happen.

 

never read eisenhorn but it sounds bad.

 

Helsreach... was a good book. it was good, damn good, damn damn good damn damn good damn damn damn.......Good.