Valkyrie, Stormraven, Voidraven

[DerekLee688]

Loyalists get AV10 and two heavy bolters for 60pts and nothing is twinlinked

am not talking about twin linked + we dont get specials to buff our units and those would be 1 per slot . So unlike sm wouldnt be able to run 6 or 9 skimers . max would be 3.

 

you think oblits would cost 75 pts too if you could take one per hvy support slot ?

 

So what you want is the minimum amount of points spent to shoot down everyone else's 120-200+ pt. skimmers? That seems a little boring for a Chaos dex entry.

 

Heck, put something jucy on it like a battle/flak cannon that auto stuns any skimmer/flyer that is partially under the template.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Problem being Chaos is that you can't really get away with giving them anything *new* per say mechanical wise, it would have to be some sort of demon engine or a modification. I persoanlly don't get why we can't have open topped rhino's and suchforth.

 

Why not? Retconning the fluff is what GW does all the time

 

"Retconn" is such a dirty word... It's more "This is how we meant it all along, honest.."

[Mr. Sandbot]

Problem being Chaos is that you can't really get away with giving them anything *new* per say mechanical wise, it would have to be some sort of demon engine or a modification. I persoanlly don't get why we can't have open topped rhino's and suchforth.

 

Wait, then what the hell has the Dark Mechanicum been doing this entire time?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Problem being Chaos is that you can't really get away with giving them anything *new* per say mechanical wise, it would have to be some sort of demon engine or a modification. I persoanlly don't get why we can't have open topped rhino's and suchforth.

 

Wait, then what the hell has the Dark Mechanicum been doing this entire time?

 

Exactly. These are the same guys that gave us the Defiler, Hell Talon, Hellblade, Blood Slaughterer, and Brass Scorpion, just to name a few. Granted, they're all daemon engines, but it's not like the concept of invention suddenly died out in a place where almost anything you can imagine comes into reality.

[Clewz]

Does make you think what the hell happened to all the banned technology they were given free reign to be getting on with during the heresy

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Does make you think what the hell happened to all the banned technology they were given free reign to be getting on with during the heresy

 

I think it's that thing where when you get all the things you want you never know where to begin so you feth off and do something else entirely.. Somewhere out there are Dark Mechanicum Adepts complaining about how Update 998.965.693.369 for WoW "Like totally ruined the game..."

[Abyssel]

And low and behold the sad truth is,

 

Chaos will never be cared for enough to give anything 'Good'

 

-cough-raptorspossesedbikerschaosspawn-cough

[Captain Juan Juarez]

And low and behold the sad truth is,

 

Chaos will never be cared for enough to give anything 'Good'

 

-cough-raptorspossesedbikerschaosspawn-cough

 

I think it's more "We've done a lot of Power Armour lately.. Let's do something else..."

[Spacefrisian]

Maybe a Defiler that can act as those Tervigons coming from below. Wishfull thinking.

[the jeske]

So what you want is the minimum amount of points spent to shoot down everyone else's 120-200+ pt. skimmers? That seems a little boring for a Chaos dex entry.

and how are you going to do the everything part when A other armies have more long range support then we do . scater lasers/hvy bolters on chimeras , sm can run rifle man MM attack bikes and 9 LS . It doesnt matter that our skimer has more weapon[in fact it doesnt a tempest has more shots then our would , but that aint that important] if there 4-5 times less of them the other armies have .

 

I dont get the boring part . what is better get a sub part 200+ unit that will never get used we have tons of those "not boring" units and somehow they never find a way in to chaos builds . I wonder why.

 

 

Maybe a Defiler that can act as those Tervigons coming from below.

and how would that help ? a tervi is at least a MC there are a few shots needed to take it down . a defiler is an av12 tank that wont get cover and wont charge on turn it enters [+ it would be hell hard to deep strike it without the whole moving parts on the model issue] deep striking it at long range wont help and deep striking it at short range means we are buying a one shot battle canon [in an enviroment pf +4 cover minimum ] for 150 pts. I dont think that would make defilers more viable or will give us more tactics.

 

 

what the army needs [that with staying with the same desing mind set , no FoC changing charas , no legion rules etc which I also whink is what we will get when we get a new dex] is working units in FA and elite slots . This can be done in only 2 ways , special rules that are very powerful but the units still are costed normal[as in they dont cost 300+pts] or make stuff very cheap .

How to make bikes viable without changing much ? give them scout or give them options to run 3-4 specials per squad . chosen ? we dont realy use anything other then a 5 man 5 special set up with rhinos so either make the weapons[not the marines] cheaper or make them cost the same but let them pick between tank hunter, stealth and FnP before a battle . [with FnP they maybe would have found a place in some sort of tier 2 hth lists].

[Roesor]

Problem being Chaos is that you can't really get away with giving them anything *new* per say mechanical wise, it would have to be some sort of demon engine or a modification. I persoanlly don't get why we can't have open topped rhino's and suchforth.

 

Wait, then what the hell has the Dark Mechanicum been doing this entire time?

 

Exactly. These are the same guys that gave us the Defiler, Hell Talon, Hellblade, Blood Slaughterer, and Brass Scorpion, just to name a few. Granted, they're all daemon engines, but it's not like the concept of invention suddenly died out in a place where almost anything you can imagine comes into reality.

 

I never said it did O.o I said anything new would probably be a demon engine or a mod' if the dark mechanicum did find proper STC stuff, would they even share it? The NICE mechanicum doesn't like sharing.

My point was that basically chaos is supposed to be older equipment, next ed if suddenly there was a completely brand new veichle that no one else had, it wouldn't make much sense. Although perhaps a downgraded version of the deathclaw pods and Helltalon/blade...

But yeah also to be honest if they wanted to they just would...it's their fluff and their game after all, they could say Abaddon had a dream about a planet with thousands of knight titans on it and then give us them :)

[Kitchen Knife]

Regarding the fluff, chaos uses older equipment, which is often( always ?) better.

 

"Here we have the uber-1337-gosu power blade. Cuts through Abbadons armor without even touching him, Sadly the technology to produce such a weapon is lost blablabla....."

 

In all the 40K fluff, the adeptus mechanicus whines, because the lost sooo much tech since the heresy (What did the guys actually do? Polish their bionics?).

So it would make sense, that chaos still has access to this (old) technology. Also GW doesn't need to invent new units, we all never heard before (Still want my chaos-jetbikes!)

 

So far, the fluff states, that raptor jump packs are way better/lighter/faster/whatever then the mordern assault jump pack. In game terms, there is no difference.

Just think GW screwed that up a little bit.... ;)

[Talon Darkshade]

I would love to see Dreadclaws added in. Not really a flyer but does come from the sky. Merely for the fact that it would give Chaos a different way to play. Not saying it won't be something like current cookie cutter list and swapping out rhinos for dreadclaws but atleast it would give a different playstyle.

[Alys]

Isn't there Tzeentch fliers? Silver Tower, Firelord and Doomwing, from Epic?

[DerekLee688]

I dont get the boring part . what is better get a sub part 200+ unit that will never get used we have tons of those "not boring" units and somehow they never find a way in to chaos builds . I wonder why.

 

Not pointing any fingers, but I blame the horde mentality of the online community. I still don't understand why nobody uses noise marines with sound blasters. Bolter with assault2?! + Heavy 3 instead of standing still for a single shot + I:5 for around 25 points?. But no, everyone is stuck on their land riders full of zergers, plague marines, daemon princes/lash, and oblits. Sternguard are 25pts and are about the same but used so much more with or without specal/heavy/combi weapons.

[Hellios]

I dont get the boring part . what is better get a sub part 200+ unit that will never get used we have tons of those "not boring" units and somehow they never find a way in to chaos builds . I wonder why.

 

Not pointing any fingers, but I blame the horde mentality of the online community. I still don't understand why nobody uses noise marines with sound blasters. Bolter with assault2?! + Heavy 3 instead of standing still for a single shot + I:5 for around 25 points?. But no, everyone is stuck on their land riders full of zergers, plague marines, daemon princes/lash, and oblits. Sternguard are 25pts and are about the same but used so much more with or without specal/heavy/combi weapons.

 

Well some people do use them... but compare them to a normal marine and for the extra points you get Fearless (double edged sword) and +1I (I could take the IoS if I wanted and in a big squad that wouldn't be bad)...

 

Sonic blasters then cost more points and are good for shooting... while +1I is good for combat... which is why instead of sonic blaster you often see power weapon + doom siren champion.... Thats the problem this squad seems to be an all rounder but it costs too many points... if it was cheaper of it was more focused on shooting or cc I guess it would be used more. Also now that everyone can run noise marine mobillity isn't as useful as it once was. If they came with sonic blasters as standard I'm sure more people would take them... that however is life.

 

Plague marines are good because +1T & FNP hell in CC and shooting (if you are getting shot) and blight grenades help you on the defense... -1I isn't great but the way plague marines tend to get played it normally isn't a huge problem... they will win by attrition!

 

Khorne Berzerkers on the other hand get +1A & +1WS... which helps in combat... and if they charge they get +1S, +1I and yay another attack! That all helps in close combat.

[DerekLee688]

None of them can double tap their bolters before they jump in combat. Do noise marines have CCW & pistol?

[the jeske]

Not pointing any fingers, but I blame the horde mentality of the online community. I still don't understand why nobody uses noise marines with sound blasters. Bolter with assault2?! + Heavy 3 instead of standing still for a single shot + I:5 for around 25 points?. But no, everyone is stuck on their land riders full of zergers, plague marines, daemon princes/lash, and oblits. Sternguard are 25pts and are about the same but used so much more with or without specal/heavy/combi weapons.

I think most people know here that I have been playing EC exclusivly since the dex came out . Do you want me to make a run down of why EC are [or rather were] tier 2 and werent realy a viable army since 3.5 ?

 

Ok I will do it [again] . As I said before many times the main problem of the chaos dex is that we dont have viable FA or elite units . And even those that some people use [like 5 man chosen with 5 melta] are too short range [+ random because of how outflank works] . BL list deal with it by taking melta in their csm/pm squads. If someone realy hates skimers or rhinos [and never plays against av14] they can even go for a AC/plas build . And what can EC do ? now EC get a buff to I which aint bad in itself when you have enough power weapon/rending attacks to use that in hth . thing is EC dont have that , they dont even have a str buff like zerker champs so runing power weapons is out of the question . So if we go the hth way we get the I buff[and it aint free] for normal attacks ... that sucks a bit as half the deaths in hth come from fist/power weapons or HQs. This turns EC hth builds in to gimik ones that use syren [with the hope that your opponent never read the chaos dex and doesnt know what it does] . its like playing with a weaker zerker build.

 

now the other option is [what I was doing for a long time] play a shoty build use sonic weapons to force saves on special/hvy/sgt models and hope they fail their saves , while using 5 man BM units as support as campers . problem is this "worked" only because of oblits and rhino wall+ lash combination[no not to bunch up to pull away] . as soon as BA/SW and IG become viable this kind of builds died a sad death , because 2 of those armies out shot and cancel the good sides of EC[lash , wounds on sgt , not being forced to actualy drive in rhinos which made rhinos walls more flexible in use etc] while the third just blows EC sky high through a combination of cheaper units , more shots , shoting transport spam etc. Why well as anyone who played chaos against those armies at high tournament lvl . chaos has problem with not having enough long range counter unit , with being forced to go in to melta range what sometimes isnt possible[for example counter units like mefo or TH/SS are too strong to take down without doing it with half of our army] . EC dont have that option[no melta in squads] so they just get out shoted and out assaulted . In the case of SW both at the same time.

 

You will probably ask now , so why not play a hybrid build . sonics and syren in squads , buff to shoting and to hth at the same time , fewer attacks with lower str in the but much stronger shoting prior charge because of assault weapons ? Well it doesnt work . First of all a squad like that costs 300+ pts [like an elite TH/SS unit with an HQ] and still dies like normal meq from shoting . that sucks . second thing that gear on our unit doesnt come from the void , the points from it have to come from somewhere . So what are EC players suppose to do ? run without oblits [so no long range support 0_o] or maybe run with a smaller number of squads [so 2 in a 1500 pts army ] that still die like normal meq. Or maybe we should cut on HQs run with a single DP and cut one oblit . but then what we play with half the hvy support we normaly run , our army gives one less target to our opponents [so those rhinos with those overcosted EC that die like meq die faster] for what ?

To get sb shots before a charge with syren ? well the chance is rather big that the squad maybe out of charge range and then our EC units of doom eats fire from half an army [well actualy less because it doesnt take half an army to kill 8-10 NM].

 

 

ah and a NM with a SB does not cost 25 pts.

[DerekLee688]

I've never been an EC player, or a tourney player. I build C:SM 5ed armies. I see NM with SB that can shoot twice at 24", and get 3 attacks on the charge at I:5 or pump 3 shots at 24" away and then get double the attacks of a C:SM tac marine or the same as a Sternguard at I:5 if charged. Fearless, no I'm envious. I'm at home with my C:CSM codex and their price has been errata'ed or I have the wrong edition codex. How much more are NM with SB than a regular C:SM tac marine? They shoot better, they assault better, and they are troops. Even if you only use one squad they are good enough to be long range support for better CQC units or hold their own as a counter assault unit and don't have the reason why Dev's or havoc's aren't taken because they don't score.

 

I'll admit the problem I have is seeing an army as more than the sum of its parts and do not dispute C:CSM needing an update.

 

 

I sorry that this has nothing to do with the topic, but CSM players saying NM suck has been something I've been trying to understand for a while now.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Numbers, primarily. For the cost of a Noise Marine with a sonic blaster, I can take a basic CSM with a meltagun and he'll stand a reasonable chance of hurting the inevitable Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider/Dreadnought that he has to face down. Noise Marines are totally dependant on grenades to combat vehicles unless you want to take the chance of the scatter-able 40-pt Blastmaster or dropping a PFist onto your Champ and turning his I5 into a joke while hoping he lives long enough to use it. In that respect, they're just like 1K Sons: unless you're pouring amazing points into one guy, you're in deep trouble if someone trundles something with an AV over 10 towards you. Those same points could outfit a basic CSM squad with a Champ, a Fist, two meltaguns or plasmaguns, and they'll have more bodies to absorb damage with. Mechanized armies are too common for Noise Marine builds to really combat effectively without having to resort to CC, and then what avails those 5pt sonic blasters? Not at all.

 

That being said, I still will field NMs on occasion, provided I have an inkling about the mission scope in advance. If I can put them on a wall to do nothing but hose firepower down on a horde, then yeah, I'll happily use a NM gunline and dare that horde to assault them in Cover, then have to content with I5 the rest of the time. But how often does that happen? Not often enough, so the NMs await a time where I can actually use them for variable roles as opposed to the one-trick pony they are. If I need one-trick ponies, I field cheaper Berserkers.

[Hellios]

It isn't that noise marines suck but compared to other units tha chaos or other armies can take they are 'meh' and as their abillities make them all rounders to fully buff them out costs a lot of points... and ok a 10 man squad can put out 30 shots... well I'm getting close to 20 marines which can put out 40... are just as tough so when one dies it hasn't got such a huge impact on my army. If all of the noise marines points went into CC they might be ok (but as it is the only thing that really makes them 'better' when assaulting compared to Khorne Berzerkers is the doom siren... I will assume chaos is charging. Otherwise berzerkers having +1S +1A +1WS in combat makes them better than noisemarines... oh and if you are meched up you can't fire all your guns while inside the transports anyway...)

 

As others had said the shooting isn't good enough... Against MEQ 1ksons will do better if people are in the open (and as I play a 1kson army I can tell you 1ksons are not very good) while against units in things start to even out and against mass infantry the noise marines win... but then they have issues with really heavy infantry or armour... plague marines have melta and plasma... khorne berzerkers can have plasma but normally all you will need is the powerfist in combat (where berzerkers should be... while expensive shooty units shouldn't...)

 

XD I guess we have derailed the thread!

 

Anyway I demand a Harbinger super-heavy bomber in the next codex rarara!

[DerekLee688]

Thanks everyone for explaining this to me. From working with C:SM tacticals, it's too hard to make a relyable flexable unit that can take on infantry and armor with one heavy/specal/combi so I let my tac's just focus on infantry. In this mentality I see 8 NM with SB that are comprable in price and performance to 8 C:SM devestators with all heavy bolters but they score. Versus BA assault squadx 10+ Sang priest/JP far out prices 8 NM with SB without adding special wepons/PW/PF for squad/sergent/priest and it would be hard for the NM player not to get one or two turns of assaut 2 or heavy 3 firing when they have 24" range. Even when they do meet in CQC BA will only strike at I:5 then I:4 when the combat continues.

 

NM don't need 9th or 10th man for better weapons, have great range even without rhino, and assault 2 gun is just as good as another CC attack compared to a pistol and rapid fire bolter. They won't be the end all be all unit that can handle everything, but they will eat non-elite infantry like no one's buisness. Champion/Doom Siren/PF/Blastmaster are all great options but so are PF/Lasscannon/PG and I avoid those because of cheaper/free alternatives that are useful in a less flexable way.

 

You guys say they're cost prohibitive, but they do things that not many units can do and have equipment than no one else can take. The fact that their uniqueness will force opponents out of their confort zone to deal with them should make up their points if not too much was spent on upgrades.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Thanks everyone for explaining this to me. From working with C:SM tacticals, it's too hard to make a relyable flexable unit that can take on infantry and armor with one heavy/specal/combi so I let my tac's just focus on infantry. In this mentality I see 8 NM with SB that are comprable in price and performance to 8 C:SM devestators with all heavy bolters but they score. Versus BA assault squadx 10+ Sang priest/JP far out prices 8 NM with SB without adding special wepons/PW/PF for squad/sergent/priest and it would be hard for the NM player not to get one or two turns of assaut 2 or heavy 3 firing when they have 24" range. Even when they do meet in CQC BA will only strike at I:5 then I:4 when the combat continues.

 

NM don't need 9th or 10th man for better weapons, have great range even without rhino, and assault 2 gun is just as good as another CC attack compared to a pistol and rapid fire bolter. They won't be the end all be all unit that can handle everything, but they will eat non-elite infantry like no one's buisness. Champion/Doom Siren/PF/Blastmaster are all great options but so are PF/Lasscannon/PG and I avoid those because of cheaper/free alternatives that are useful in a less flexable way.

 

You guys say they're cost prohibitive, but they do things that not many units can do and have equipment than no one else can take. The fact that their uniqueness will force opponents out of their confort zone to deal with them should make up their points if not too much was spent on upgrades.

 

The difference is that SMs have enough reliable support units to be able to afford using Tac Marines to strictly deal with enemy Troops. Chaos isn't quite so fortunate; we have to have our Troop squads able to take on all comers or it's suicide. Noise Marines can't reliably do that without pouring points into the upgrades, whereas a basic CSM squad can for much cheaper. We HAVE to have our Troops be the end-all, be-all of handling everything because we aren't going to have a pet Razorback, a friendly Dreadnought, a deathstar of TH/SS Terminators, or a powerful special character HQ with a fat retinue of dudes to take care of any gaps in our Troops' combat capabilities. Obliterators can't be everywhere at once, nor can they shoot into CC.

 

When it comes to the Cult Troops, uniqueness is not always something desirable, nor is it the best option to take when you're having to rely on the same guys you need to claim objectives to also do the heavy lifting when it comes to combat, no matter what form that combat may present itself as. 2/3rds of the Chaos Codex is made of inferior or unreliable units to what SMs can claim; our flexibility in choices is an illusion masking woeful inadequacy in many key areas of 5th Edition.

[the jeske]

sm have dreads rifle man, drop dreads . one slot . MM attack bikes different slot . dakka or las preds again different slot .

 

we have FA nothing. elite maybe chosen [imo not realy not with the range they have] hvy support oblits .

 

+ we cant combat squad we cant double our fire power by taking a las/plas pred for 5 dudes . runing 10 man AC/plas units is a lot less flexible [+ our dudes cost more , can run away if they get caugh we lose a unit the sm player still has those other 5 dudes hiding somewhere etc] .

 

NM don't need 9th or 10th man for better weapons, have great range even without rhino, and assault 2 gun is just as good as another CC attack compared to a pistol and rapid fire bolter.

realy ? in a world of mecha where str 4 SB do absolutly nothing to rhino mounted squads and where even our "heavies" weapons cant deal with AV13/14 ? yeah we pwn DE [huge models av 10 , NM are not offten used and a offten people think that i 5 means they should be a hth army so deploy to near etc] or slogger IG and this is more or less it . problem is 60%?+ of all armies are meq and most of those play mecha not slogger [as do eldar , IG etc] . so the extra shots [that are not free] are offten wasted most of the time . I always wonder how people would like zerkers or PMs when they would have to pay 5pts per model to get their special rules .

 

You guys say they're cost prohibitive, but they do things that not many units can do and have equipment than no one else can take

problem is that when compering to good and viable units in other armies their unique trait is sucking hard.

A tac in sm is cheap , get ok rules , does what it suppose to do[not die too fast] . a zerker/pm unit is great . undercosted rules , no need for 10 man squads , fearless . RAS in BA good rules[priests , 2 specials , rhinos are fast etc] , support the army builds[can go counter , can go razor spam , can go assault builds all with different game play] .

GH cheap , very good rules , good weapon options in squads [can be rune without WG] which dont make the unit overcosted .

EC do good anti horde in the open or syren [if your opponent doesnt know it exists] and this is all .

 

When we add to the fact that the other armies have tons of options to cover their possibls short comings[technicly BA and SW units are as short range as ours . Only LF can counter double the number of targets oblits can , both armies can run LS , BA can us MM attack bikes etc ] . EC have to be carried by DPs and oblits , but the same can be said about armies with csm/zerlers/pms . But csm/zerkers/pms are much better then NM , they take more dmg , they do more dmg , they can try to do anti tank . NM based builds right now just plain suck . 1ksons can at least put anti tank on their sorc for cheaper [and probably fry their brains or get stoped by runes/staffs/hoods etc but that is a different story] . NM get a 40 pts auto cannon ;) .

[Warsmith Aznable]

If they wanted to make chaos cooler and more fluffy they could give them the 'looted' vehicle option.

 

I must say that although that is one option, I would prefer if they didn't go down that road and instead of doing copy/paste on the Imperium stuff went with more Daemon engines. I really like the Stormraven, it's a good looking model and I think there could be some really nice Chaos conversions on it, but I just prefer having the two factions separated a bit more than they are.

 

Agreed. There are Forge Worlds in the Eye of Terror making crazy Daemon Engines all day long, so I think it would be cool if we got a flyer/skimmer that was maybe like a Defiler and Hell Talon made a baby, and that baby can carry troops and has an assault ramp.

 

But the "looted vehicle" idea is neat, too.

 

I've got so many tanks to assemble and paint that the new Chaos flyer will be old news by the time I can get around to getting one anyway...