Going to start on a DoA list.

[Sir Blayse]

Ok I'm not posting a list here, but will give you an idea of what I have so far.

 

HQ will be Librarian and Honor Guard with JP's

Elites so far is three Priest with JP's

Three JP assault squads for troops.

 

I'm trying to work out a list that is not too expensive on each unit, but packs a good punch.

So a few questions to ask and hopefully get some answers on how these have worked out for others.

I'm definitely giving the Libby SoS, but for the second power I'm debating on Might of Heroes, Blood Lance, Sword, or Unleash Rage. I'm leaning towards Lance or Rage. Any experience with these?

Honor guard, should I use the 20 points to make a blood champ, or just get 3 PW's and maybe some shields, plus a PF or TH. I like the idea of putting a TH in to deal with heavy targets. With SoS is getting shields a waste of points?

 

How many priest is too many? So far I plan to run at least three, these will probably be using chainswords. I feel that at 75 points and the fact they die fast, I would be better to not waste more points than that? I might run one or two more to go with other choices, but that depends on what I go with.

 

Now, what about other choices? I debating on either running JP DC or JP VV. The DC come with Priest built in and have a nice WS. But I lose control of the unit quickly. Should this matter? In my experience DC only last a turn or two anyway. With JP's if I DoA in, then they don't get to assault and could easily get wiped out by enemy. Infernus is not dependable when DoA, could easily be useless and squad is insanely expensive. The VV have a chance to come in and assault same turn, WS is only 4 and doesn't have FNP. I can not give them a chappy or priest, or lose Intervention ( which is the main reason to use them). I'm thinking VV are better, hopefully getting tied up in combat on turn they come in. With DoA how well does this work? Also, do you run them as 5 man or 10 man squads? What is a good load out? I plan to use HI, so I'm thinking only bolt pistols and some PW's, plus either PF or TH.

 

Other elite choices? I could get two chappy's or some more priests. If I run DC, then I will definitely use at least one chappy. The rerolls make them super-powerful, but even more expensive.

 

Last, would I just be better off getting a few more JP assault squads and priests. They don't hit as hard, but are scoring and can be tough to kill with priests. Are the harder hitting power units worth their points?

 

Am I missing something?

 

Thanks.

[SamaNagol]

You havent said how many paints the army will be

[Sir Blayse]

Sorry, I'm shooting for 1750 to 2000 points. I magnetize my Assault troops packs so I can easily swap them for JP's.

[SamaNagol]

2000pts

 

3 x 10 Assault MArines wth 2 Melta and a Thunder Hammer or Fist (THammer preferable)

 

Honour Guard with 4 Meltaguns and a Fist/Hammer

 

10 Vanguard Vets with 4-6 Storm Shields, 2 Power Weapons and 2 Fists/Hammers

 

Librarian with Jump Pack and Blood Lance/Shield

 

4 Sanguinary Priests with Jump Packs and P Weapons

 

Sanguinary Guard with Banner and Infernus Pistol

 

 

Have fun.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have a series of tactical articles in my blog (see my link below) on DoA armies. Take a peek if you're interested.

 

I run my Libby upgraded to an Epistolary with Sword and Rage. I have found that three stormshields works well for my Honor Guard. If you take some SS in your Honor Guard the lightning claw is a good choice as well since you've lost the +1A (SS does not count as a single handed weapon).

 

I would run VV over DC since the former are really good now due to their HI combined with DoA. Hope that helps.

 

G :D

[Sir Blayse]

I'm guessing the extra priest would go with the guard.

Strangely I didn't even think about using them? I'm a bit iffy on them. One of my opponents runs a lot of plasma cannons. Just for that reason I rarely run termies. I don't see the guard being any better than them.

If I drop the PW's on the priest, one priest, and guard, I could get another pretty good VV squad. Probably 3 or 4 shields and 2 PW's, I would have to adjust the first VV for a few points as well.

I'm just afraid the Guard would drop in early and fail to do anything with the short-ranged infernus. I know it might not happen, but I have bad luck a lot it seems.

I'm just thinking HI might be a bit better.

Also, if going first is it better to deploy most of the army or still try and DoA it? I'm pretty sure if going second I will reserve the whole thing. Thanks.

[SamaNagol]

The infernus isn there to be relied on. It is there just in case. Your Honour Guard and RAS are your Melta hit squads.

 

The SG are great units for absolutely positively clearing an enemy unit off of something. With a Priest they will kill almost any infantry unit they charge.

[Rinion]

*snip* I have found that three stormshields works well for my Honor Guard. If you take some SS in your Honor Guard the lightning claw is a good choice as well since you've lost the +1A (SS does not count as a single handed weapon).

 

I would run VV over DC since the former are really good now due to their HI combined with DoA. Hope that helps.

 

G ;)

 

I'm a new player this edition, so genuine questions ahead! Is it actually good to take such a geared up squad? It gets near 300pts for one 5 man unit then! Loaded with 3x LC/SS and a Power Weapon and Jump Packs. Costs about the same as a DC squad with some power weapons and a Reculsiarch or so.

 

Which would it be, that 5man VV squad, or 6x DC with Power Fists and a Reclusarch?

[SamaNagol]

I run a 10 man VGV squad so it can combat squad into 2 5 man units. That way I am paying 200pts for a 5 man squad tooled up that can engage a unit in combat immediately and be survivable enough to hold up enemy units whilst other scoring troops come in.

[Till]

Something I have found to be an issue that I invite you to roll around:

 

If you DoA against a mounted army (and mech is very popular in 5th) you can kill all transports, but the crap inside will charge or rapid fire. If you're playing against guard with plasma/melta its going to hurt... a lot. I find that having two librarians both with blood lance in a honor guard squad with plasma murders this issue. Drop the AS with meltas down to kill the transport, drop the honor guard/lib "katicorner" to the AS and blast away with ranged. The blob of AS will give the HG/lib squad a cover save from that angel the dead transport/crap inside will give you another from that one. Lastly you get a SoS save if someone gets through all that LOS.

 

This set up is a ton of points but I think its very fun to play and is very effective (in my experiences) with other power armor armies. How it would do against others... not sure.

 

Lib- 125

HG - 225

x2 = 700

Thats two blood lances, 16 plasma shots, two lib hoods (for large area psych def) 2 priests, 12 wounds, and all doa. I donno if its the best use of 700 points but its hella fun.

[Zhukov]

Just a quick but pretty relevant point:

 

I keep noticing that almost everybody seems to take Powerswords instead of (single) Lightning Claws... A single Lightning Claw on a model with 2 Attacks base (or more) is better or equal against almost everything...

 

Even some simple math will illustrate this:

 

Vs. T4, charging (with furious charge):

LC: 3x 1/2 x 8/9 = 1,33

PS: 4x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1,33

 

So equal in this case. Without furious charge:

LC: 3x 1/2 x 3/4 = 1,125

PS: 4x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1,00

 

I could do much more math, but the conclusion:

 

Lightning Claw is equal or superior against T4+

Powerswords are only better against T3 and on models with 1 attack base against most targets (which we don't have). So my advice:

 

Single Lightning Claw is the superior weapon; take it instead of the Power Sword if you are interested in that.

 

 

About Jump Pack armies, this article is very usefull. It writes a summary on it while including links to other articles about the same subject too:

 

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/12/...verview-of.html

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run my Libby with his HG in a SR. Lots of points tied up in one unit but they can kill a lot of stuff easily. The SR gives you some long range AT amongst other things. It's been a good combo for me.

 

G :D

[Mezkh]

LC: 3x 1/2 x 8/9 = 1,33

PS: 4x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1,33

 

So equal in this case.

 

Just to note, in this case I would take the Powersword everytime, because it has the statistical potential to deal four wounds, whereas a Lightning Claw has a maximum possible wound tally of 3.

 

Hence the problem with using simple math to illustrate a point. It's too simple. Statistics isn't only about mean results, consider the relationship as a normal distribution. I'm a terrible mathematician/statistician re: probablilty theory, but perhaps someone can explain it better than I can.

 

Plus the other point from a modelling perspecitive powerswords are dead easy to come by and look good, lightning claws are hard to find and don't have the same variation in bits.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The chances of scoring four wounds with the PS are quite slim even with FC. I think the point that should be noted is if you take a SS then the LC is a better choice.

 

G :D

[Sir Blayse]

If you DoA against a mounted army (and mech is very popular in 5th) you can kill all transports, but the crap inside will charge or rapid fire. If you're playing against guard with plasma/melta its going to hurt... a lot. I find that having two librarians both with blood lance in a honor guard squad with plasma murders this issue. Drop the AS with meltas down to kill the transport, drop the honor guard/lib "katicorner" to the AS and blast away with ranged. The blob of AS will give the HG/lib squad a cover save from that angel the dead transport/crap inside will give you another from that one. Lastly you get a SoS save if someone gets through all that LOS.

 

I'm interested in this, but not sure exactly what it is saying? What is the librarian/HG shooting at? I'm thinking that the libby with HG melta's would be better at killing the vehicle, if the guard player has his vehicles in parking lot formation the lance would be super. I'm pretty sure I would want the AS to take on occupants.

 

Let's take my usual opponents forces. He has 3 russes, one has Plasma cannon, plasma sponsons, and Pask. The other two are normal LRBT's. He only has one Chimera with vet's. The other is blob squad with 3 infantry. Lascannon heavy team. He also has a few other vet squads on foot and two lascannon armored walkers. I'm probably missing something here, but that is about it. I'm not really worried about his vets, but whenever I use JP squads DS in, then I get ripped up by templates.

 

The other one is a SM army with 2 dakka preds, 3 las/plas backs, dev squad, CC HG, a couple of tac squads, and 2 ten man scout squads. Plus, I'm pretty sure I'm missing something else here also, but it's close.

 

What if I do a mix in the HG, 1/2 Melta and 1/2 Plasma. It's a few less AP 1 shots, but gives me 50% more shots total at 12". In most cases I will be going for side or rear shots. I almost never face any one with LR's, so I shouldn't needed more than being able to pop AV 11 in most cases.

 

As for the SR, I would like to use one or two, but the cost is high for it. I think it would be better in my Mech list.

 

As for the LC issue, I don't think I could reasonably do these anytime soon. I have plenty of PW's from my other space marine sprues.

 

Now a second point, I like to try and tie up combat on my turn assault and win in the opponents assault. This usually keeps me from losing to heavy firepower and gets me an extra move. If I run the VV with just 2 PW's and a TH, would this be too much power. I'm a little worried it will be a bit too killy at 10 men. Any results for this? I'm not the biggest mathammer guy, but would like to know how this would work against say 10 tac marines or 10 guardsmen. Would it be better to do the 2 5-man squads and split them up into 1PW and TH in one, and just 1PW in the other? Thanks.

 

(Also, I'm going to build my VV from the DC box, so you have an idea what I'm working with.)

[Mezkh]

Definately if you use a SS then LC.

 

Anyway, my tips for DoA would be:

 

- Strongly recommend you consider taking a named character. That's Dante, Astorath, or Sanguinor for jump packs. They help you deal with other enemy characters and nasties that Assault squads struggle with. The Librarian is pure support and an okay choice, but can fold easily in CC.

 

- Don't take too many priests. Points can be tight in a DOA army as you need to balance survivabilty with model count and enough upgrades and specialist units to get the job done. I think four effective priests is too much in 1750-2000 points, and would never take one priest per assault squad - that's too many.

They are too expensive to spam at 75 points each before upgrades.

 

Generally I go with 2 special weapons per 5 Vanguard, keep them as a unit of ten with the choice of how to split the weapons between the two 5 man squads on deployment.

[Zhukov]

LC: 3x 1/2 x 8/9 = 1,33

PS: 4x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1,33

 

So equal in this case.

 

Just to note, in this case I would take the Powersword everytime, because it has the statistical potential to deal four wounds, whereas a Lightning Claw has a maximum possible wound tally of 3.

 

Hence the problem with using simple math to illustrate a point. It's too simple. Statistics isn't only about mean results, consider the relationship as a normal distribution. I'm a terrible mathematician/statistician re: probablilty theory, but perhaps someone can explain it better than I can.

 

Plus the other point from a modelling perspecitive powerswords are dead easy to come by and look good, lightning claws are hard to find and don't have the same variation in bits.

No I get what you are hinting at and I can't deny that: A powersword will always have more potential; but also more potential to fail... for example; if you hit 3 times with the powersword; the chance of getting 0 wounds is 1/2^3= 12,5%. Now the chance of getting no wound with 2 Lightning claw hits is 1/2^4= 6,25%.... And the chance of getting 2 out of 3 hits with the lightning is higher (37,5%) than getting 3 out of 4 hits with the powersword (25%) (pushing it further towards the LC...)

 

So I'm afraid that even though the potential is higher of the Power Sword; the Lightning Claw simply has a higher (or equal) average damage output ánd it's more reliable (the re-rolls are the cause of this)

 

Higher potential just isn't that important in this case; the more because you don't (well you shouldn't) plan for getting 'lucky' (by gaining way more damage than you realisticly can expect)

 

Also it would only matter if you wound 4 times with the powersword... The chances of that is so low that it makes it a pretty marginal advantage; pretty much neglectible in my opinion.

 

Really; there is little to no reason to take Powerswords over Lightning Claws when looking from a gaming perspective; not even when you make the math more complicated.

 

Yes of course; if you can't get your hands on some LC's, then of course take the Powersword; but that's kinda irrelevant for this discussion don't you think? :) Try asking a SW player for lightning Claws. (cut of the SW details ofc) Other option is cutting the Terminator LC (many people have these, the more because TH/SS termies are popular) near the elbow and stick it onto a normal arm. (where you cutted a part off too ofc)

[Sir Blayse]

I'll probably try out getting the space wolf one's. I think removing the emblems shouldn't be too hard. I've got some time to get it all together, until then I'm busy with putting together some other things. I will need to acquire a few more melta's also, but I've got a friend that will trade some of my plasma guns for them.

[JamesI]

I recommend this thread for DOA tactics.

[SamaNagol]

If you want Lightning Claws, especially with Storm Shields on Power Armoured marines, you will need the right handed LC and it is best to use the Terminator one. Just cut it off at the elbow and it is the same size as the Captain's one.

[Till]

I'm interested in this, but not sure exactly what it is saying? What is the librarian/HG shooting at?

 

The crap inside the transports. the AS kills the mech on the deepstrike then its done. The Lib/HG shoot everything else inside and its done. Its pretty much cutting down the scoring units of mech before they can react least thats the idea. These two shooty squads would roll a squad of tanks you said you would be going against. Land behind and shoot 8 shots and a lance through the squadron. 8 str 7 on rear armor 10 with a lance? They're dead or at least wont be a bother in the near future.

[Sir Blayse]

Ok thanks. This has been real helpful. I don't think I'll be using the shields though. The 10 VV, sgt w/TH and 2 LC's plus JP's put them at 360 a piece. I feel this should be a good unit with this build. I'm definitely hoping to get HI to work though. With DoA is this pretty easy to do?

I actually seem to have a harder time making a 1750 list, than 2000. At 1750 I have to drop a VV squad. This gives me a 100 point opening.

[Emperors Immortals]

IMHO try to include at least 2 SS per 10 VV, the save and wpound allocation is more than worth it.

 

 

 

-edit- I also tend to run 6 or 7 man single VV squad at less then 2000pts, i find it a waste OW.Also, plasma on you HG is an absolute killer versus guard, chimeras and marines - great but overlooked all rounder.

[SamaNagol]

Getting the charge off is not guaranteed.

 

The reason why a lot of people take multiple Storm Shields on this unit is because they can act as an excellent 'blocking' unit. Ensuring they can get into combat at full strength and getting the charge means that they can certainly stop even the nastiest of units doing their thing.

 

Or of course you can just send them to butcher units of Long Fangs or Stealth Suits which can't stand up to the number of attacks you can put out.

[Sir Blayse]

Ok this is what I have at 1990.

 

HQ- Libby, HG w/2 melta and 2 plasma + JP's= 340

Elite- 3xSang Priest w/ JP's=225

Troops- 3x 10-man RAS w/PF and 2 melta= 705

Fast- 2x 10-man VV w/JP 2 LC's and TH= 720

 

The only way I can think to get more points is drop the VV's down a bit. If I do this, then I lose combat squading. If I drop 2 from each squad, then I could have 3 SS in each squad. This would protect the LC's and TH's. The other option might be to drop a Sang. Priest, but I'm not a big fan of that.

 

I think the HG and RAS should do a decent job of popping AV. I can use the VV to deal with enemy command squads, walkers, long-range weapons, etc.

 

I'm not great on my mathammer skills, but I figure VV would kill 4 to 5 MEQ on the charge. Depending on what they hit they might lose probably 2 or 3. MEQ will probably make their check and stay locked in. Against guard it seems on the charge I would kill about 9 or 10 pretty easy, might lose one to bad luck on my end. This is actually a bad outcome for me. I don't want to be open to get hit. If I drop 2 from each squad, then the numbers look like they might be better for me. If someone with better skills could check this it would be helpful. If so, then this would definitely be the best way to get some SS in there. Thanks.