SamaNagol Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This is the role we are trying to outline for VGV. They are there to hold up heavy enemy targets, or take out specific infantry targets like Devastators, Tau Suits or Ork Lootas which can put a hurting on your DSing models. Everything in a DoA list has a specific role and you really need to trim the fat, but invest the points where they are needed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I would change the weapons on the honor guard to all plasma getting you to 2k even or put in all melta. Imo plasma and melts are differnt roles. I wouldn't mix them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I think you can get by with two Priests. If you arm them both with melter pistols I think you can drop the HG as well. That will easily get you enough points for another hard hitting unit. G -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This is the role we are trying to outline for VGV. They are there to hold up heavy enemy targets, or take out specific infantry targets like Devastators, Tau Suits or Ork Lootas which can put a hurting on your DSing models. Everything in a DoA list has a specific role and you really need to trim the fat, but invest the points where they are needed. Gooood advice. Ok this is what I have at 1990. HQ- Libby, HG w/2 melta and 2 plasma + JP's= 340 Elite- 3xSang Priest w/ JP's=225 Troops- 3x 10-man RAS w/PF and 2 melta= 705 Fast- 2x 10-man VV w/JP 2 LC's and TH= 720 The only way I can think to get more points is drop the VV's down a bit. If I do this, then I lose combat squading. If I drop 2 from each squad, then I could have 3 SS in each squad. This would protect the LC's and TH's. The other option might be to drop a Sang. Priest, but I'm not a big fan of that. I think the HG and RAS should do a decent job of popping AV. I can use the VV to deal with enemy command squads, walkers, long-range weapons, etc. I'm not great on my mathammer skills, but I figure VV would kill 4 to 5 MEQ on the charge. Depending on what they hit they might lose probably 2 or 3. MEQ will probably make their check and stay locked in. Against guard it seems on the charge I would kill about 9 or 10 pretty easy, might lose one to bad luck on my end. This is actually a bad outcome for me. I don't want to be open to get hit. If I drop 2 from each squad, then the numbers look like they might be better for me. If someone with better skills could check this it would be helpful. If so, then this would definitely be the best way to get some SS in there. Thanks. I think you're overdoing the VV a bit. They're kind of a wildcard unit, and really good to have up to a certain point due to their unique ability, but the expense isn't worth running two units. Generally you'll have a couple of good drop points and/or a couple of really optimal targets for 1-2 combat squads, but with 4 squads coming in it's natural your 3rd and 4th squads won't be hitting as good units. You also lack crunchiness. At the core you've really got nothing punchier than ~50 assault marines and 4 weak in CC Characters. This is fine vs your Imperial Guards and so on, but if you're building an 'all comers' list you will be overpowered in CC by stuff Assault Marines can't handle. Also too many priests. If you dropped one squad of Vanguard and one priest you can fit in two Sanguinary guard squads for example, plus perhaps some meltabombs. Or you could go with Lemartes and Death company escort. etc. I'd recommend finding room for Meltabombs on the Vanguard as well, they're a steal at 5pts each model and help towards your wound allocation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Ok, I think that I can do all plasma in the HG. In most cases they should be getting rear armor shots on vehicles and in other cases will give me plenty of kills against MEQ. I would like to keep 3 priests, plus I'm not a fan of Infernus pistol. In most cases the short range gives me nothing. I will have to do a test with this and see how it works. I'm pretty sure the plasma's will be better overall than the melta's for the HG. Plus, I have a lot of these hanging around. Also too many priests. If you dropped one squad of Vanguard and one priest you can fit in two Sanguinary guard squads for example, plus perhaps some meltabombs. Or you could go with Lemartes and Death company escort. etc. I not really sure I'm getting the reasoning behind getting Sang. Guard. 40 points each for only 2 attacks each, WS 4, Str 4, and a 2+ save. They have a nice gun, but I'm just don't think that works for me. I'm pretty sure if I drop a VV, the only other likely choice would be a DC unit with Lemartes. How about this? HQ- Libby, HG, 4 Plasmaguns w/JP = 350 Elite- 2x Sang Priest = 150 Troops- 3 -10x RAS, PF, 2 Melta = 705 Lemartes, w/ 7x DC, 2 PW's = 425 Fast- 8x VV w/JP, 2 LC, TH, and 3 SS = 360 Total: 1990 ( can fit 2 melta's bombs in somewhere. But, is Lemartes a good choice? I can use a reg. chappy and give him melta bombs, plus another DC member. 5 attacks seem nice, but I would have to get him wounded and not ID'd for that.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 At 2000pts I would seriously consider running Death Company and Lemartes, because they will cause absolute carnage when they hit the enemy lines. All you have to do is point them in the right direction and let them do what they do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This is probably a stupid question, but how does MB help with wound allocation? Are teh models treated as being armed differently? I always though grenades/MB didnt count? If they do....then theres a whole new realm of hurt BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This is probably a stupid question, but how does MB help with wound allocation? Are teh models treated as being armed differently? I always though grenades/MB didnt count? If they do....then theres a whole new realm of hurt BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I figure the MB is armed differently to a standard marine...could eat my words though if there is a rule to say otherwise! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Would wound allocation matter on one wound models anyway? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I don't see DC as a good investment in a pure jump army. They are expensive and don't have a transport to deliver them. They will be kited around and shot up. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I've always run mine in a rhino before, but with everything else to deal with... I don't see getting kited that bad. Also, I don't see me getting kited by LRBT or Walkers. Hmm, should I drop the PW's in the DC for a TH? Lemartes doesn't have much to do with vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I agree with some of the other fellows here death company with all that bling and the character? Thats soooo many points. thats 10 sang guard O.o. I would suggest dropping the DC for another lib and and HG. They're the same price with way more diverse killing power. I seem to be saying the same thing in different threads about sang guard. I love them every game they preform well. Don't try to think about how well they do in a vacuum. Start adding in priests, charge bonuses, cover saves from AS... they're a 5 man wrecking crew that take planning. I'm not saying take em; just saying don't discount them all together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I was thinking of doing a second Libby/HG squad with plasma's also. It would certainly be cheaper than the DC, but not very good at CC. Another question? What about running the HG's with 3 Plasmaguns and a Blood champion? I would gain a PW and WS 5. With the savings here I could make room for more meltabombs. As for the Guard, I'm just not impressed by them. Maybe fully done up, but not sure. If they had relic blades, then I'd really like them I think. So far I've just not seen anything sell them to me. Also knowing my opponent throws out plasma templates doesn't spark a big interest in them either. If I did I think I'd want to use death masks, just for the cool factor. Also, I'm not a big fan of putting a lot of shiny gold into my army. I will probably run this as more FT's. Though I've been tempted to do something different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 DC are great in a jump list, it's pretty hard to kite them when they move 12" and assault 6. I reckon keep the power weapons (turn into lightning claws on the charge is awesome) but try and add a thunder hammer as well. Lemartes is definately the way to go over a normal chaplain for Death company, it's around 25 extra points for his extra abilities over the elite jump pack chappy and he can't be picked out in combat as an IC. That initiative 6 base with 7 on the charge is nasty as well. Generally a reclusiarch with extra wound isn't as good... Sanguard can be good, sure base they aren't that attractive but the idea is they drop in behind your assault squads so that they can get the charge off. They run on hitting the table to avoid being bunched for templates, and because they're cowering behind your Vanguard and Assault squads they often get cover saves. 15 PW weapon attacks and if they pick up a priest aura that's Str5 with some rerolls, it works out good value at 200 points a pop. One 30 point banner per army for an extra 5 attacks. Good support for Assault squads who look like getting bogged down. I do like the DC in 2000 points though. Fearsome. Oh and the wound allocation, still works good for single models in small squads. Basically means when you take mixed AP firepower or CC attacks where some ignore armour and others don't, you can stack the nasty wounds onto one model and take the saveable ones with a 3+ followed by 4+ FNP Works for the Death company too, take a mix of bolters and chainswords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I was thinking of doing a second Libby/HG squad with plasma's also. It would certainly be cheaper than the DC, but not very good at CC. Another question? What about running the HG's with 3 Plasmaguns and a Blood champion? I would gain a PW and WS 5. With the savings here I could make room for more meltabombs. My take on the plasma death squad is they're there to do something the rest of the codex cant, kill MC and kill crap that come out of dead transports on DS. Librarians are glass cannons... last place you want an IC with t4 3+ 2w is CC. They're not there to do well in CC. Thats what a 240 point AS does (along with Sanguard that you dont like =p) May just be me, but I dont think having a 100% assault army is the way to go. What happens when you run up against crap that can kite or worse yet actually beat you in CC. Having that 1/3 of your army be real strong range dmg is nice to lean on. There isnt much "damn I sure hope I can kill that last 5 man razor crew sitting on that OBJ" no need to fret, they're dead. In the end It will all work out. You're doing enough thinking to have a fun army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 So some of ya have been having success with the DC in a pure jump list - interesting! Do you DS them onto the table? I'd feel better running them in a Stormraven so they don't get kited before the first charge goes off. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2649905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 You cannot kite DC in a 2000pts game. It is physically impossible. There's too much stuff on the table. DS them slap bang in the middle of the enemy, they will draw a huge amount of fire and either A) die so your scoring less scary units stay unscathed, or B) Live then kill anything they touch because they are FAR superior to Sanguinary Guard when they are actually in combat. I wouldnt ever take JP DC in a smaller game, but at 2000pts you can afford a unit of 6 with Lemartes and it will put the fear of God into whoever has to deal with it along with the other 4 units dropping down that turn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2650005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Would wound allocation matter on one wound models anyway? This is probably a stupid question, but how does MB help with wound allocation? Are teh models treated as being armed differently? I always though grenades/MB didnt count? If they do....then theres a whole new realm of hurt BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I posted this a couple of days ago in response to a similar question. And with regards to melta bombs, yes, they do make a model different. (ref wound allocation BRB. units that are identical in gaming terms roll saves together. There's no exclusion mentioned anywhere for melta bombs. Anyway... It's most significant when you must allocate more than one wound per model. Especially of varying strengths & AP. Say 5 unique models must allocate 11 wounds (x), 3 of which with no armour save (X). One allocates thusly: A x x B x x C x x D x x E X X X E is plainly dead. but A through D get to make 2 saves each. Requires 4 failed saves to eliminate the unit and these 4 fails must be on each of the models as opposed to say, A & B failing twice each. If the models are identical, all 8 (of 11 wounds) rolls are done at once as a batch. 3 models are already dead from the no save attacks. Thus, the remaining 8 rolls must be saved by 2 models, ie 2 failed saves of 8 batch rolled and they're dead too. It means the difference, in the above case, of around 2 survivors versus probably none. If they're 80+ points worth of veterans, the 30 points spent on ensuring they're all different is well worth it. It's why I'm fond of HI VV 5 mans having (although I don't field them myself) Glaive(/PF/TH) (sgt) PW PW+MB LC LC+MB They're all more or less the same... but are uniquely and cheaply done so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221705-going-to-start-on-a-doa-list/page/2/#findComment-2650661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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