Jaws of the World Wolf and a unit shooting bolters

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

An issue just came up in a game I played against the Tau concerning the Jaws of the World Wolf that sparked a heated debate... I need assistance clarifying how this actually works...

 

When my Grey Hunters pack with Rune Priest attached targets another unit and hits it with Bolters and Jaws of the World Wolf, how exactly does wound allocation and removal work?

 

In this particular case, I was firing at his squad of now 14 Kroot. I managed to get 4 Kroot under the JotWW line and scored 11 additional wounds via flamer and bolter. The debate was whether or not he could allocate bolter wounds to models being removed from play via JotWW.

 

Can someone please assist and clarify with this situation? Thanks!

[bystrom]

In general, yes. In this case, no.

 

In general, JotWW is a shooting attack, therefore, the bolters and JotWW happens at the same time. On the other hand, in this case I'd guess that all the kroot were the same, therefore you roll for the whole squad of kroot as one and remove as many casualties as is neccessary once the number of dead kroot is resolved.

[dswanick]

The JotWW is a Psychic Shooting attack. As the Runepriest is attached to the GH pack they shoot as a single unit. Rolling to wound and Taking armor saves come before Remove casualties, so yes the specific models to be removed by Jaws are still part of the unit when it comes time for your opponent to allocate wounds and can therefore have wounds allocate to them and be removed as casualties.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The JotWW is a Psychic Shooting attack. As the Runepriest is attached to the GH pack they shoot as a single unit. Rolling to wound and Taking armor saves come before Remove casualties, so yes the specific models to be removed by Jaws are still part of the unit when it comes time for your opponent to allocate wounds and can therefore have wounds allocate to them and be removed as casualties.

 

 

I never particularly thought of it, but this follows the proper order of operations, and thus by the power invested in me (which is to say none) I declare it correct.

[trefenwyd]

Wait a minute, you're blowing my mind here. Are we saying that it is theoretical/probable to completely negate JotWW (assuming accompanied flamer/bolter/etc fire)?

 

Step 1:

Roll to hit (let's say 10 hits via bolter, 10 also via JotWW)

Step 2:

Roll to wound (let's say 5 bolter wounds)

Step 3:

Take saves (let's say 4 unsaved bolter wounds [iG], 4 fail their JotWW I tests)

Step 4:

Remove casualties. Since JotWW affetcs 'models', the oppoenent can put the 4 unsaved bolter wounds on the 4 models that failed their JotWW test, thereby only losing 4 instead of 8 models. Wow. Maybe RAW, but definitely a 'broken' mechanic. I'm debating whether or not the 'must allocate one wound per model until everyone has one wound' rule kicks in, but since JotWW doesn't cause wounds, I don't think it applies. Anyone have a different interpretation?

[nurglez]

I agree, you assign wounds on models and make saves, however the models that have failed their initiative test are removed, and suffer no wounds for it, therefore you could dump the ap 1 and 2 wounds on them.

[breng77]

As was stated above you can only assign wounds if there are different groups of models. A squad with all identical models would have to remove 8 models as it has taken 8 casualties. I guess you could argue either way as there is no ruling as to the order in which these things happen.

[trefenwyd]

True, but there's nothing that tells me that I have to resolve my Init tests prior to my wound/save rolls (and as far as I know of, nothing that says I can't). So then it boils down into the SW player wanting the opponent to roll saves prior to init tests (so he doesn't yet know who's going to die from JotWW) and the opponent trying to do the opposite! So, what is the approriate step at which to roll the init tests?

 

It's not step 2 or 3 (wound/save), which leaves steps 1 or 4. Step 1 because it's associated with the shooting portion of the phase. Step 4 because it directly results in casualty removal. I.e., the RP rolling his psychic test and declaring a target is step 1. Steps 2/3 are ignored, and step 4 is the init test. This interpretation wouldn't allow for specific AP1/2 allocation on JotWW casualties because that allocation happens in step 3, but it would still allow for the opponent to double up wounds on JotWW losses. This all gets muddied when you're talking about non-homogenous units, and might engender some tactical analysis (do I put the AP1 wound on my power fist that was targeted by JotWW or not?).

[breng77]

True, but there's nothing that tells me that I have to resolve my Init tests prior to my wound/save rolls (and as far as I know of, nothing that says I can't). So then it boils down into the SW player wanting the opponent to roll saves prior to init tests (so he doesn't yet know who's going to die from JotWW) and the opponent trying to do the opposite! So, what is the approriate step at which to roll the init tests?

 

No actually, if you do it that way then the other player just takes all the saves on those models hit by Jaws, so if they die he does not take an I test. The question for me would be do the models get removed prior to wound allocation.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

In the same kind of vain what if Arjac and a Priest with Jaws were in the same unit and Arjac nailed a single monstrous creature by throwing his hammer wounding him and the Priest hit it with Jaws? Is the Initiative test at 1 or the MC's original Initiative? Sorry to get off topic.

[dswanick]

In the same kind of vain what if Arjac and a Priest with Jaws were in the same unit and Arjac nailed a single monstrous creature by throwing his hammer wounding him and the Priest hit it with Jaws? Is the Initiative test at 1 or the MC's original Initiative? Sorry to get off topic.

Q. Is a model that has suffered an unsaved wound, but hasnʼt been killed, from Arjac throwing his Foehammerreduced to initiative 1 until the end of the next player turn? (p51)

A. Yes.

I can't find any rule or FAQ that states the the target model uses his base or unmodified Initiative, so I would say yes - as Arjac reduces the targets I to 1 for the remainder of the turn the JotWW would use the modified I for the test.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

So Initiative test would be after wound allocation by that example.

[Corby]

In the same kind of vain what if Arjac and a Priest with Jaws were in the same unit and Arjac nailed a single monstrous creature by throwing his hammer wounding him and the Priest hit it with Jaws? Is the Initiative test at 1 or the MC's original Initiative? Sorry to get off topic.

 

 

Was this faq'ed? I always presumed thunderhammers only reduced the targets initative to 1 when inflicting wounds in combat.

 

Edit: The rulebook says nothing on thunderhammers having to inflict wounds in combat to reduce a units initative to 1.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

In the same kind of vain what if Arjac and a Priest with Jaws were in the same unit and Arjac nailed a single monstrous creature by throwing his hammer wounding him and the Priest hit it with Jaws? Is the Initiative test at 1 or the MC's original Initiative? Sorry to get off topic.

 

 

Was this faq'ed? I always presumed thunderhammers only reduced the targets initative to 1 when inflicting wounds in combat.

 

Edit: The rulebook says nothing on thunderhammers having to inflict wounds in combat to reduce a units initative to 1.

Yes, Space Wolf FAQ version 1.1 Arjac's hammer does make you I1 when he throws it.

[nurglez]

I would say that if Arjac and a rune priest with jaws was in the same unit, and hit a daemon prince for example, that it wouldn't effect the Initiative. As a unit's shooting is supposed to happen at the same time.

[Kassill]

I would say that if Arjac and a rune priest with jaws was in the same unit, and hit a daemon prince for example, that it wouldn't effect the Initiative. As a unit's shooting is supposed to happen at the same time.

 

 

So then it would have to be a RP running alonside Arjacs then, right? :nuke:

[CaptMac]

I raised this when talking about a list on another thread but if you move the Rune Priest out of unit coherency (and split him from the pack). He fires another unit and just make that "unit" fire after the GH Squad. You get your foehammer to the face, the mushed face model is then reduced to ini1, the Priest then fires as a subsequent unit...job done.

[Frosty the Pyro]

found it

[dswanick]

Pg.3, left-hand column, last Q&A.

[CaptMac]

Q. Is a model that has suffered an unsaved wound, but

hasnʼt been killed, from Arjac throwing his Foehammer

reduced to initiative 1 until the end of the next player turn?

(p51)

A. Yes

 

So we're in agreement as soon as he takes a wound from the foe hammer he's Ini 1?