About this Storm Raven:

[Zid]

Ravens are pretty damn survivable honestly. With 90% of the meta using meltas as their only pure AT, the ravens pretty hard to tackle. Tack on the fact it works awesome in reserve or on the table.... its well worth the 200!

Well I'll leave the term meta alone (it's a myth :) ), but even then I'm afraid you must be playing in a relatively weak area then. Many, many good lists should include S7 and S8 weaponry along with meltas...

 

Examples:

-IG with quite some Autocannons, but also some S10 sometimes (Hydras being truly painful ofc)

-Wolves with lots of Missiles

-Chaos with Lasscanons

-Tau with S7 Pods + S10 railguns

-Vanilla Marines with Rifleman Dreads, Preds and Razors

 

 

All in all at the moment I'm tempted to agree with the OP, it doesn't seem all that competative to me at the moment. However I'm trying a bit now and then to make a list in which you can fully utilize the difference roles it can fullfill. (think about having a cargo which can work on their own if they want to: Jumppack troops and Libby Dreads jump to mind, things like that) That way it might no be an obvious target all the time or not that painfull when it does get killed... Using it as an empty Gunboat when it asks for that while rushing forwards with a cargo in some other game.

 

It should be clear that this unit requires the complete list being build around it; maybe even more so than with a Land Raider.

 

I can agree; it requires a list built around it. Completely. You cannot just throw a raven in and win games; I tried it originally when I built one. It got dominated every game. However, now that I have a list built around it its been pretty damn awesome.

 

My meta is pretty IG heavy; no wolf players, and a lot of BA players running rhino rush, as well as a few orc players. Lots of LR heavy armies as well.

 

Yeah, the SR does goi down against IG pretty often. But hell, it allows me to drop my assault termies on their doorstep and typically they can't be ignored! Like Corby said, it does its job time and time again. Plus, against marine players (ones who aren't running dakka spam as you pointed out) most people DO rely heavily on melta. The ability to move 12" and shoot 2 AT weapons that rarely miss is a huge boon; being able to stun a predator and vindicator, etc.

 

Honestly, I like the raven. Its not broken, but its not a chump either in most matchups.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

S8 glances 50 percent of the time and pens 33 percent of the time. A Devastator firing a rocket hits 67 percent of the time. Now factor in the 4++ cover save:

 

0.67*0.5*0.5 = 17% chance to glance which is negated by extra armor the majority of the time

 

0.67*0.33*0.5 = 11% chance to pen and then factor in 1/3 chance to wreck or destroy - roughly 3% chance overall

 

It requires a high volume of shots to bring it down barring a lucky shot that gets through all those odds. A little better for a lascannon and a lot worse for an autocannon. The railgun is the true threat but how often do ya ever see Tau now? Thought so!

 

G :P

[TheMouth]

BO how would it go if there was no 4++ ? Just as well, or does one need to always make use of the 4++/Machine spirit?

[Tessius]

The Storm Raven is a Beast of a vehicle.

[Bartali]

yea, if it goes down on shot one, bummer, but that's a rare case... the more shots you pump into it, the more other squads arn't getting shot at... all give and take, synergy, yadda yadda... it's not like it's the only thing on the filed that you could or possibly should be shooting at.. and no you don't have to play 25 games, but you have to look at more angles then the very few most people look at it under.

Well and here lies the problem: this makes it (in theory) automaticly not competative to me. If the chances of getting blown up early/easily are high, while it's an expensive unit where other units rely upon: That will lose you games now and then. Competative means reliable too, Storm Raven lists aren't that. With Land Raiders it's already a bit of a gamble; this is worse. Oh; saying that they aren't shooting at something else instead is fallacy I'm afraid... That goes for everything, it's important how efficient you are at bullet catching, the Raven isn't with his cost + cargo depending on it.

 

and i disagree. If my DC and furioso (or termis or whatever i'm loading in) gets to the unit i want them to in that time:) I like the gamble...

 

But i digress, I don't agree with your assessment, but i learned long ago, i'm not going to change anyones minds, it'll just be a back and forth of saying the same thing diffrent ways...

 

This is the problem with the Raven, and with Land Raider lists. It builds a 'rock' list that has only one tactic available to it - charge up the table and deposit the contents in your opponents back line. A rock list is easily counterable though - your opponent may still be fully mech'd, not actually have a unit worth commiting that many points to assaulting, or may bubble wrap their important units.

[Zhukov]

Well we actually agree; you acknowledge that it's a gamble by saying that you like the gamble... Only I see gambling as non-competative, while you don't. Well let's not dicuss about that now will we? ^^

 

Stormravens are as 'reliable' as plenty of other competitive options. Competitive armies use Deepstrike, Reserves, and Psychic powers all the time, all of which have a chance of not doing what you want built into them, but competitive players use them because the benefits far outweigh the risks taken.

 

The raven brings some pretty impressive benefits to an army.

Yes the Raven is effective; but not efficient. That's the whole problem: It's a wonderfull vehicle when you look at it's abilities, but it's simply too expensive for what you get. (ironicly this is caused because you get too much)

 

And disagree with your comparsion to Deepstrike/Reserves/Psyhic powers, that's completely different... There depends much less on those 'risky' things. (you can safely deepstrike if you want, you shouldn't reserve if it's not beneficial and psychic powers failing isn't that gamechanging unless you take too much risk yourself)

 

Honestly, I like the raven. Its not broken, but its not a chump either in most matchups

Well then it's a different case. If you know you don't play an area with a strong overall presence of lists; then it might be much better for you.

 

It requires a high volume of shots to bring it down barring a lucky shot that gets through all those odds. A little better for a lascannon and a lot worse for an autocannon. The railgun is the true threat but how often do ya ever see Tau now? Thought so!

Immobilized is very bad too. Even worse: the odds you show there don't say much in vacuüm. You gotta compare it with other odds. No matter how you look at it: it's for most things like shooting down a Chimera to the front. No competative army troubles doing that. (well except maybe Orks and Deamons and that's why they kinda fail sometimes)

 

Overall your math is a bit deceiving (not on purpose of course!) to people who don't know much about it: The chance of getting wrecked/destroyed by 1 missile is around 5,6%. (remember; a 6 on the glancing is dead too if you move flat-out) (Autocannon odds are actually better! 7,4%.... A hydra shooting goes to odds above 30%)

 

Now I know these are relatively huge odds in 40k... This is only 1 missile. Let's assume a list is capable of shooting 12 missiles at you (that's not a lot actually; but let's roll with it). The chances of the raven surviving that is (0,944)^12 = 50%

 

These are really big odds... And the 'now they aren't shooting at something else' argument doesn't mean anything as I said earlier. The Raven is so expensive and the guys inside depend on it's survival too... You are not happy that it get's shot down; it's way too important for that. (high investment)

 

So yes; it will get blown up sometimes (these odds can't even be called lucky; SW lists have double the amount of missiles than that!). This to me means that you'll lose games solely because of this; you can't deny that. It's not a Predator which get's blown up, or a rhino... It's like a Land Raider getting blown up but now everything (ironicly enough) except melta can down it pretty easily...

 

I don't say that you shoulnd't be using it though; I might myself actually. Seems like a very fun unit and it offers some nice new list possibilities but you can't call it a really competative choice I"m afraid (still it's in theory; I'm trying to think why it wouldn't matter in real...But reserves doesn't help against gunline armies which are the nemesis of this unit). And I don't mean a particular local metagame when I"m talking about competative; I'm hinting at large countrywide/statewide tournaments.

[Decoy]

I kind of have to agree with the folk panning it. I've played about ten-ish games against four different Raven-inclusive lists since they came out, and of the approx 25 Stormchickens I've seen, I've dropped 19 of 'em either first turn or second. With their payload out of immediate threat-range. I've not once felt threatened by Chickens any more than I feel threatened by D.E. Raiders. A nuisance at worst, a good explosion at best. Treating them as anything else gives them far, far too much undeserved credit. (For reference, my antitank is lascannons and Living Lightning, with one squad of 5 Missile Launchers splashed in.)

 

For their price, as pointed out above, the Chicken is fun and fluffy, but ultimately, it's pretty much a waste of points given what it's supposed to do. If it were 50/75 points cheaper, I might consider it more useful, but the poor SR is essentially a confused pre-teen. It doesn't know what it should (or wants to) be doing, and ultimately, the ugly lil' bugger comes worse off for it.

[Mezkh]

Well we actually agree; you acknowledge that it's a gamble by saying that you like the gamble... Only I see gambling as non-competative, while you don't. Well let's not dicuss about that now will we? ^^

 

Stormravens are as 'reliable' as plenty of other competitive options. Competitive armies use Deepstrike, Reserves, and Psychic powers all the time, all of which have a chance of not doing what you want built into them, but competitive players use them because the benefits far outweigh the risks taken.

 

The raven brings some pretty impressive benefits to an army.

Yes the Raven is effective; but not efficient. That's the whole problem: It's a wonderfull vehicle when you look at it's abilities, but it's simply too expensive for what you get. (ironicly this is caused because you get too much)

 

And disagree with your comparsion to Deepstrike/Reserves/Psyhic powers, that's completely different... There depends much less on those 'risky' things. (you can safely deepstrike if you want, you shouldn't reserve if it's not beneficial and psychic powers failing isn't that gamechanging unless you take too much risk yourself)

 

Honestly, I like the raven. Its not broken, but its not a chump either in most matchups

Well then it's a different case. If you know you don't play an area with a strong overall presence of lists; then it might be much better for you.

 

It requires a high volume of shots to bring it down barring a lucky shot that gets through all those odds. A little better for a lascannon and a lot worse for an autocannon. The railgun is the true threat but how often do ya ever see Tau now? Thought so!

Immobilized is very bad too. Even worse: the odds you show there don't say much in vacuüm. You gotta compare it with other odds. No matter how you look at it: it's for most things like shooting down a Chimera to the front. No competative army troubles doing that. (well except maybe Orks and Deamons and that's why they kinda fail sometimes)

 

Overall your math is a bit deceiving (not on purpose of course!) to people who don't know much about it: The chance of getting wrecked/destroyed by 1 missile is around 5,6%. (remember; a 6 on the glancing is dead too if you move flat-out) (Autocannon odds are actually better! 7,4%.... A hydra shooting goes to odds above 30%)

 

Now I know these are relatively huge odds in 40k... This is only 1 missile. Let's assume a list is capable of shooting 12 missiles at you (that's not a lot actually; but let's roll with it). The chances of the raven surviving that is (0,944)^12 = 50%

 

These are really big odds... And the 'now they aren't shooting at something else' argument doesn't mean anything as I said earlier. The Raven is so expensive and the guys inside depend on it's survival too... You are not happy that it get's shot down; it's way too important for that. (high investment)

 

So yes; it will get blown up sometimes (these odds can't even be called lucky; SW lists have double the amount of missiles than that!). This to me means that you'll lose games solely because of this; you can't deny that. It's not a Predator which get's blown up, or a rhino... It's like a Land Raider getting blown up but now everything (ironicly enough) except melta can down it pretty easily...

 

I don't say that you shoulnd't be using it though; I might myself actually. Seems like a very fun unit and it offers some nice new list possibilities but you can't call it a really competative choice I"m afraid (still it's in theory; I'm trying to think why it wouldn't matter in real...But reserves doesn't help against gunline armies which are the nemesis of this unit). And I don't mean a particular local metagame when I"m talking about competative; I'm hinting at large countrywide/statewide tournaments.

 

I don't see the logic behind your dismissal really. 200 points is not an inefficient outlay for the best transport in the game carry that can carry two units into assault or unleash fast melta at three targets first turn against MSU.

 

300 points maybe.

~210 points, bargain, especially when the competitive scene is pushing 2000-2500 point games.

 

You need to reconsider 'expensive'. I'd put the Raven as being underpriced for what you get out of it. It's competitive because it offers a tool for almost every situation and you're not paying out the nose for that.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

This is the problem with the Raven, and with Land Raider lists. It builds a 'rock' list that has only one tactic available to it - charge up the table and deposit the contents in your opponents back line. A rock list is easily counterable though - your opponent may still be fully mech'd, not actually have a unit worth commiting that many points to assaulting, or may bubble wrap their important units.

 

Disagree. Part of what makes a land raider list good is against some armies you can hang back and use the Bulky armoured firepower to protect the raiders since the big threat is really just meltaguns. As well if you're getting in close and your opponent hasnt lost any transports you're doing it wrong :)

[Zhukov]

I don't see the logic behind your dismissal really. 200 points is not an inefficient outlay for the best transport in the game carry that can carry two units into assault or unleash fast melta at three targets first turn against MSU.

 

300 points maybe.

~210 points, bargain, especially when the competitive scene is pushing 2000-2500 point games.

 

You need to reconsider 'expensive'. I'd put the Raven as being underpriced for what you get out of it. It's competitive because it offers a tool for almost every situation and you're not paying out the nose for that.

You aren't trolling are you? :) If not: it doesn't matter what it can do, if it's dead (and it will be often) then it's of no use. That's the whole problem: it's offensive capabilities are awesome, good mobility, transporting + assault vehicle...all great! But it's worth nothing if you can't use that reliably.

 

If you don't play against people who take anti-tank and who line up in the middle of the board: Best thing since sliced bread.

If you play against a varied amount of armies, including highly competative ones: It will fail hard sometimes.

[Bartali]

This is the problem with the Raven, and with Land Raider lists. It builds a 'rock' list that has only one tactic available to it - charge up the table and deposit the contents in your opponents back line. A rock list is easily counterable though - your opponent may still be fully mech'd, not actually have a unit worth commiting that many points to assaulting, or may bubble wrap their important units.

 

Disagree. Part of what makes a land raider list good is against some armies you can hang back and use the Bulky armoured firepower to protect the raiders since the big threat is really just meltaguns. As well if you're getting in close and your opponent hasnt lost any transports you're doing it wrong :)

 

I guess you're talking about about Godhammer raiders ? As sitting back with a LRC is usually a very bad idea.

 

So let's imagine you've got two Godhammers, both with TH/SS Terminators in. So that's 900pts just shooting 4 Lascannons at me, happy days as far as I'm concerned !

What sitting back with Raiders also allows me to do is attempt to immbolise/wreck/destroy your Raider before it delivers it's cargo, leaving your Terminators walking around

[Grey Mage]

If you don't play against people who take anti-tank and who line up in the middle of the board: Best thing since sliced bread.

If you play against a varied amount of armies, including highly competative ones: It will fail hard sometimes.

In a competitive environment, everything fails hard sometimes- bad terrain, bad dice rolls, or just a bad call.

 

Its a mini-thunderhawk. Thunderhawks survive because they have the super-heavy rules. The key to keeping an AV 12 skimmer alive is judging exactly how much firepower it can take, and not exposing it to half of that if you can help it.

 

The stormraven is good for an alpha-strike style list. Get in close, moving fast, and pop tanks that would threaten you- dreads with MM, leman russes, what have you. Drop out dreadnaughts with heavy flamers and meltaguns to do similarly to other targets as needed. Next turn, assault ramp out and enjoy yourself in CC... who cares if it died- if it took out a single leman russ, land raider, or other high-point/high-kill target youve made your points back.

 

If it survives the initial rush youve got alot of firepower to laydown if you choose, or you can bug out and use LR shooting to gunboat it before moving in to help mop up in the late game.

 

Its not so bad. Its just more finesse than a marine army is used to having and is best used with the idea that 2/3 will die during the first 3 turns... and making sure they return on investment.

[Zhukov]

If you don't play against people who take anti-tank and who line up in the middle of the board: Best thing since sliced bread.

If you play against a varied amount of armies, including highly competative ones: It will fail hard sometimes.

In a competitive environment, everything fails hard sometimes- bad terrain, bad dice rolls, or just a bad call.

Yes and that's why you shoulnd't make it even worse :lol:

[Mike Somerville]

@BO, re-do your math.

S8 glances a Storm Raven 16.67% of the time if it hits.

 

From what I am reading, people seem to be using the SR as a faster Land Raider carrying an assault unit plus Dreadnought.

While the "rock" is not my personal play style, it does seem pretty popular.

 

Someone (TheMouth?) mentioned using it in a Drop Pod beacon army as a Deep Striking gun ship.

I guess if you armed it with TLAC, TLMM, and Hurricanes it might actually not be that bad.

What else would a list like this have in it? Would the SRs be empty?

 

Someone else (Shatter?) mentioned filling it with a shooty unit, please explain further.

 

-Mike

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

16.67 versus 17%... Seriously. :lol:

 

G ^_^

[Mike Somerville]

Sorry, should have been more specific.

 

.67*16.67*0.5=5.58% to glance.

 

The middle factor is where you are incorrect, it should be 0.1667 instead of 0.5.

I was not complaining on your rounding.

 

-Mike

[Isryion]

This thread shows why theoryhammer falls apart, though. It can always be used to support a particular position. It's one thing to give an opinion and another to continue to support it in a vacuum over and over.

 

People who are exposing their SR to an enemy's full compliment of shooting have either overestimated its capabilities or have some other grand plan in mind that I can't comprehend.

 

Decoy, you mention that you've taken down 19 of 25 in turn one or two. Do you feel like it was due to poor deployment and use of them at all? Also, it seems like facing 25 means you're facing multiple stormravens in each of those 10 games. I'd say that 50/75 points cheaper would be crazy, considering you're then at the price range of a Baal Pred with HB sponsons for a much better vehicle.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you go second then start in reserve versus shooty lists. Pretty simple.

 

G :)

[Decoy]

Decoy, you mention that you've taken down 19 of 25 in turn one or two. Do you feel like it was due to poor deployment and use of them at all? Also, it seems like facing 25 means you're facing multiple stormravens in each of those 10 games. I'd say that 50/75 points cheaper would be crazy, considering you're then at the price range of a Baal Pred with HB sponsons for a much better vehicle.

 

Poor deployment for the first few games, to be certain. Yeah, two of the guys are quite taken with the SR and cram 'em in their lists. Likewise, I've faced 'em when there's only one in the list, so it's kind of a toss-up. One guy tried to Reserve them in one or two games, but my build (such as it is) tends to blow the enemy out of the water by Turn 2. If you don't start with enough on the board against my current list, you'll get shot to hell from long-range (I tend to deploy at the very back of my DZ, or in heavy terrain) and once you move in, my CC elements will finish off what's left. In no way was the Reserve guy coming out ahead, and he almost never got first turn (I blame my rolls for that. )

 

I don't know about the price drop being such a thing, really, because honestly I have more trouble dropping Predators. Maybe it's just luck... possibly... but I've never, ever had a problem dropping an SR. Maybe if it had one more point of AV for it's current price, it might be something approaching competitive. As it stands, it's just... not. Generally, it's something to point and laugh at while the rest of the enemy army explodes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I used to have a lot of problems versus SW - TWC/GH/LF spam... that is when I first started to use VV to silence the LF taking some of the heat off my SR. Basically everything has a counter, a weakness if you will. TWC go down quick to S10 for instance. A lot of my friends in my gaming group say the SR is the best vehicle in the game now and I have to agree... no other one can move 24" and fire a twin linked multi-melta for example. If you dont like them hey that is okay... but go rain on some other parade. Lots of people playing other chapters would love to be able to use them and thats a fact!

 

G :)

[Bartali]

Basically everything has a counter, a weakness if you will. TWC go down quick to S10 for instance.

 

That's fine, but when the unit is expensive and the counter is carried on mass by various all comers lists (I have 14 missiles in 1500pts of DA for example), then it's not so good.

 

Effective S10 (no, not you Vindicators) isn't so common in a list as to make TWC redundant

 

Edit - That's not to say trying to scream a Raven up the board and emptying it's cargo won't be fun - just not that competitive

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel compelled to write a short article about this thread...

 

G :)

[WarpWalker]

What BO said! +1

 

I know a lot of people have used the SR and have fought against it in the past year. Now that there is a model we'll see it more often. In a year from now I'm sure we'll have another discussion on how to beat lists revolving around them. With more practice there will come better strategies and better lists.

 

I for one can't wait to get my hands on the SR. I'm either going to win with it or fail trying. :rolleyes:

[Grizzly Adams]

The Stormraven is just one of those units that you cannot mathhammer, you cannot justify it on paper, the sucker just works. Unless you have played with it on the table, it is hard to be able to accept it. However, I encourage you, even you doubters to at least proxy it, and give it a couple go rounds. These things are good, they are tough, they are competitive, and they are tournament capable. Just returned from a team tourney this weekend and there was 4 other Blood Angels players besides me, and all were fielding at least one stormraven.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I'll take a SR over a squad of missile Devs any day of the week.

 

G :D