About this Storm Raven:

[Wahotsu]

After reading the thread, I noticed that some mentioned 'Gamble', 'Chance", things of this nature. We are talking a bout a game where all outcomes are decided by DICE. The very nature of the game is a crap shoot. Doesn't matter if you have (some number) of (whatever) if your dice come tits up.

[Kurb]

Its not so bad. Its just more finesse than a marine army is used to having and is best used with the idea that 2/3 will die during the first 3 turns... and making sure they return on investment.

 

I think thats where most people are missing it.

While I am new I read a LOT of BatReps and such.

 

People love the "Point, Click, Boom" lists.

Which I think is sad. It takes away from some of the ...variety (?) that is a sad thing to me.

 

SR's require more than racing forward with RazorBacks, Spaming anti-tank, and getting your "IWinButton" unit.

 

At least thats my uneducated opinion. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Kurb basically you just hit the nail on the head.

 

G :)

[HB66]

Heres a StormRaven Deployment Idea.....

- with the (4) missles having a 72" range, couldnt you use the SR's speed and long range reach with missles to knock out any potential threats and then rush in deploy your troops, and back out to operate as a Gunship again???

 

- I have seen lots of reference to using the other weapons on the SR but not alot of attention paid to 72" range missles, which are now the longest range that Blood angels and space marines have for any weapon.....except Orbital Bomardment on a Captain, which BA''s cant use any way...

 

Thoughts????

 

HB66

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I do that a lot... versus SW with lots of LF I will attack one pack with VV and alphastrike another with the Bloodstrike missiles.

 

G :)

[WarpWalker]

HB66- This is a tactic I suggested months ago in a thread I started. It got shut down by a few posters. I can't see why deploying the SR on your corner of your deployment zone( from reserves or not) and destroying any AT threat across from you. Will leave the rest of the enemy's army( diagonally) further away than 48inches. Well out of danger zone.

[Zhukov]

After reading the thread, I noticed that some mentioned 'Gamble', 'Chance", things of this nature. We are talking a bout a game where all outcomes are decided by DICE. The very nature of the game is a crap shoot. Doesn't matter if you have (some number) of (whatever) if your dice come tits up.

Sorry, fallacy again. That's like saying: You are poor already, it doesn't matter when you throw your money away...

 

Especially because this game is about probability, you should try to limit that. That's part of playing well. If you base your game around 'doesn't matter what I do, because dice decide anyway' then I'm pretty damn sure you would lose each and every game against a competent player.

 

 

And to the people who say that the people who think it's mediocre because they prefer 'straightforward units', really? Are you guys even serious? That's just a very poor assumption. Somebody reminded me of this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

 

Maybe have a look at it; because currently some people in here come with plain illogical arguments which has little to do with the game anymore.

[HB66]

WarpWalker -

- cool, didnt see your thread....but yeah that plan of attack seems perfectly valid to get an extra turn or two out of your SR. Looking at the other posts in this thread, i have to say that I agree with the people saying that its just SM players not used to having to play with some finesse. Nothing is certain in 40k, and SM are about as certain as things can get when it comes to unpredictable dice rolls.

-the SR is going to add a whole new fun wrinkle to playing SM's, and I for one am really looking forward to getting mine painted up and playin :lol:

 

72" MISSLE DEATH....... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

 

HB66

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

quick question...why do some people care so much if the stormraven is popular or not?

who cares if someone likes it or not?

[Demoulius]

the 72 inch missles are nice and all, but the S8 doesent allow a great deal of targets for it to be viable. what i mean is (il rephrase it) that the vehicles that these missles can safely take out, also can be taken out by a great deal of other targets.

 

if your SR is hanging back its much less of a threat your opponent (specialy since the missles are 1 shot only) because generally its the cargo inside thats dangerous. its in this role (carrying a lethal cargo) that makes it a huge target and with AV 12 all-round it generally cant weather the amount of AT that gets thrown its way....with or without a 4+ cover save. tbh ive used it after its cargo was partying amids my opponents lines and the only reason it was taking any fire at all was because it was eh...the only armour in my list (aside from the furioso that was allready immobilized in my deployment zone :lol:)

 

the vehicles itself in gunboat form isent so much a death threat as it is a improved land raider crusader (minus the armour off course) it can fly around 12 inches and STILL fire all its weapons (after losing the missles into some juicy target) with hurricane bolters in particular it becomes a infantry hunter and with its mobility its very difficulty to run from. (or rather...you cant :D) have it hanging back in your lines though and it shouldnt attract that much anti-tank fire (unless like my list its about the only thing flying around with an armour value...) and it could be gun-boating all day.

[Isryion]

@ Zhukov, you don't like the stormraven for a competitive environment based on theoryhammer. We get it. Your reasons make sense and are valid, even if I'd like to see more concrete evidence, and you can see that people only take the theoryhammer discussion so far...

 

I think the point about finesse (which I think is where you are making the that some people are making is: there are "x" ways to use a razorback and they're pretty straightforward, but there are "y" ways (where y>x) to use a stormraven, even if it takes more time to learn all those options. But, once you do, you have a better vehicle and are a better player because of it rather than relying on more simple and straightforward tactics.

 

 

EDIT: As an example, I played a high elf list for WFB (back when HE weren't that good) that people tore apart on paper, especially when looking at individual units like we're doing here. It took the better part of a year to get right. Once I did, it gave me far more flexible options and was a better army than the all cav list that was the conventional wisdom at that time and had the much easier learning curve.

[WarpWalker]

Zhukov touched on something that reminded me of an important aspect of being a space marine player. We are all human and can and do make mistakes. This is just part of learning. You have to deal with it. However space marine armies are hardy enough to allow a few mistakes and still win. When using the raven we will just have to be more aware of our surrounding and make fewer mistakes. I've always tried to play the game a few turns ahead in my head. Bad things can happen but hoping for the best is not a let down. Remember how we all learned to run? We had to walk first. How did we learn to walk? By putting one foot in front of the other. Are we going to fall a lot? Sure! But you will never walk until you try.

[Zhukov]

@ Zhukov, you don't like the stormraven for a competitive environment based on theoryhammer. We get it. Your reasons make sense and are valid, even if I'd like to see more concrete evidence, and you can see that people only take the theoryhammer discussion so far...

Well it doesn't really seem to matter; even when somebody comes in and says he played against Stormravens a lot and explains why they fail all the time; people still dismiss it. Even worse: You can do well with a unit but it might still suck...simply because playtesting isn't really reliable unless you have played a lot of games against a multitude of skilled oppenents each playing different armies. Many people (who defend the Raven with utter determination) haven't done this...and probably never will. Saying something is good is way more risky then saying something is bad to be honest... But hey; I'm only trying to help here by providing some constructive arguments, I don't mind if it's good or bad. It's not my girlfriend where we are talking about here after all ^^

 

But that's not even the point at the moment; discussions shouldn't be about being right; that doesn't work. (because you can't prove it)

I'm mainly now replying to comments which really just make no sense... Because they are full of assumptions about players and playstyles.

 

 

I like armies which require more thought actually...I hate point and click armies. (I played with a combination of Footdar and a Mechanized element for some time, go figure ^^) I'm taking that into account when talking about the Raven. Some people here though act like it's some sort of unit which is completely incomprehensible if you haven't played with it before... That's just not a fair assumption; it doesn't require rocket science to figure out what it can and what it can't do. Will I be missing some nuances? Sure; that's why I said already multiple times that I think it's not competative, I'm not claiming to be spreading out facts here. Even then; those nuances won't make Av12 turn into Av13 :no:

 

However space marine armies are hardy enough to allow a few mistakes and still win

So Marine armies are overpowered then? That's really what this basicly would mean...

[WarpWalker]

Marines overpowered? Nah. We have our faults too. A good space marine build has redundancies. Allowing the player opportunity to quickly recover. Truthfully, I am not the greatest player or technician or #1 general of the match. I have been much too preoccupied with my life and my work as of lately to play a lot of games. However I have over 10 years experience in this hobby and near 300 games under my belt. The players and the army's really don't change much. The younger players are always excited about the newest shiny. If they don't listen, then let them learn for themselves.

 

And if that is all you gained outta my post I feel sorry for you.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

@ Zhukov, you don't like the stormraven for a competitive environment based on theoryhammer. We get it. Your reasons make sense and are valid, even if I'd like to see more concrete evidence, and you can see that people only take the theoryhammer discussion so far...

Well it doesn't really seem to matter; even when somebody comes in and says he played against Stormravens a lot and explains why they fail all the time; people still dismiss it. Even worse: You can do well with a unit but it might still suck...simply because playtesting isn't really reliable unless you have played a lot of games against a multitude of skilled oppenents each playing different armies. Many people (who defend the Raven with utter determination) haven't done this...and probably never will. Saying something is good is way more risky then saying something is bad to be honest... But hey; I'm only trying to help here by providing some constructive arguments, I don't mind if it's good or bad. It's not my girlfriend where we are talking about here after all ^^

 

But that's not even the point at the moment; discussions shouldn't be about being right; that doesn't work. (because you can't prove it)

I'm mainly now replying to comments which really just make no sense... Because they are full of assumptions about players and playstyles.

 

 

I like armies which require more thought actually...I hate point and click armies. (I played with a combination of Footdar and a Mechanized element for some time, go figure ^^) I'm taking that into account when talking about the Raven. Some people here though act like it's some sort of unit which is completely incomprehensible if you haven't played with it before... That's just not a fair assumption; it doesn't require rocket science to figure out what it can and what it can't do. Will I be missing some nuances? Sure; that's why I said already multiple times that I think it's not competative, I'm not claiming to be spreading out facts here. Even then; those nuances won't make Av12 turn into Av13 :blush:

 

However space marine armies are hardy enough to allow a few mistakes and still win

So Marine armies are overpowered then? That's really what this basicly would mean...

if the SR really does suck stop complaining it means other people who think it rocks will use it, and you can then win, so please stop whining about other peoples' choices of units.

[Zhukov]

And if that is all you gained outta my post I feel sorry for you.

Yeah sorry; the rest wasn't all that interesting for me. You don't have to feel sorry for me though, don't worry I'm doing fine :blush: But when we talk about the competativeness of a unit; I assume the people who claim stuff are also competative players... Well sorry, but some comments in here even go against basics of 40k. At least that's how I see it. If that sounds arrogant; so be it.

 

I'll leave this thread alone now; it's probably my fault that the discussion seems kinda out of hand, in this case: my apologies.

[Widdershins]

It seems to me as though the Stormraven is the best way to get your DC dread into combat. Podding it in costs less, but also gives the opponent a turn to do something like position their units so that the dread is chasing around a bike squad the whole game while they shoot at it. By using the SR you can not only get the dread into combat but after it wipes out the unit you can fly the SR in front of the dread, thus blocking line of sight to enemy units it might want to chase, and have it board up and fly it to the next juicy target.

 

The problem with this is that the Stormraven would have to last until at least your second turn to drop the dread off, as using Skies of Blood would be just as bad as podding it in. The SR's survivability (or lack thereof) has been discussed extensively however. Just thought I might steer the thread into a 'possible uses' direction.

[Mezkh]

And if that is all you gained outta my post I feel sorry for you.

Yeah sorry; the rest wasn't all that interesting for me. You don't have to feel sorry for me though, don't worry I'm doing fine :P But when we talk about the competativeness of a unit; I assume the people who claim stuff are also competative players... Well sorry, but some comments in here even go against basics of 40k. At least that's how I see it. If that sounds arrogant; so be it.

 

I'll leave this thread alone now; it's probably my fault that the discussion seems kinda out of hand, in this case: my apologies.

 

Sure some of the arguments here are pretty bad but that doesn't make your point stronger, it just makes them bad arguments.

 

I guess I just don't see sound reasoning backing your position that the Raven is overpointed for it's capability. I think we'll have to wait for the results. And I'm not trolling ;)

[Kurb]

Item X doesn't fit the norms established by the internet.

Thus item X is fail.

 

Maybe in 6th edition everything can play the same so we stop these arguments.

[SamaNagol]

For the love of god, whatever you do, do not listen to the person who suggested keeping your Storm Raven across the table.

 

It will still be in range of Missile Launchers and Autocannon and of course Lascannon for a minimum of 1 turn. It will not in any way benefit from it's anti-Melta rule. WHEN, not if, it gets blown up, your expensive assault cargo will have to foot slog it across the table.

 

WHEN your Storm Raven gets shot down, it should do so where your horribly killy assault based cargo can actually still make it into combat the next turn.

 

You can fly this thing literally on top of your enemy. Melta means not much to it anyway, no more so than Missile Launchers, you definitely can't hit it in close combat, and it gets the 4++ save for moving flat out. So if the opponent does pour enough fire into it to drop the poor bird, your Assault troops can still get in next turn rather than walk across the table through a hail of gunfire.

 

But as I said, it's too many points for AV12 and it is a big risk. If it survives til turn 2, you will most likely win. If it gets destroyed and your units disembark out of range for a turn 2 assault, you will most likely lose. And in competitive play that is far too polarised to be a solid choice.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You have some words of wisdom but I disagree with your overall assessment. I did very well at BoLScon last year with a DoA army featuring one SR. I think BoLScon is one of the more competitive large tourneys in the US. Competitive play in tournaments comes down to how well you match up versus other armies and the missions. The SR gives a DoA army a mobile weapons platform - something that jump infantry units cannot derive. We have the best jump infantry army in the game - combining that with an SR is just brutal. Experience is a lot more telling than theory hammer - that's just the way it is.

 

G

[shatter]

I just got back from a game. used the 2 shop SRs, sternguard x 2 and dreads; 1 fury, 1 dc and 1 AS, 1 5man dc and a shield/lance libby.

Went second, he deplyed, all my stuff in reserve, he parking lot-ed his rb spam with a mind to be in a position to move and take any scoring option on the board.

1 RAS came down T2 and ran into a no LOS spot. He shuffled his force into the centre of the board.

Both SRs came 3rd turn via DS and destroyed 6 rbacks, 30 marines and his HQ. He called it as two weaponless and an immob rback were not going to help him.

 

No losses. (I've done this twice in the last 2 weeks, much to the horror of the guys, both times with radically different lists)

 

MVP: SR delivered magnafrag: 2 rbacks and 12 marines in one turn of shooting. Although to be fair, 5 marines were killed by one of their own rback explosions.

 

SRs UTTERLY stupid to DS down shooty stuff? Pahleez.

[Brother Weasel]

You have some words of wisdom but I disagree with your overall assessment. I did very well at BoLScon last year with a DoA army featuring one SR. I think BoLScon is one of the more competitive large tourneys in the US. Competitive play in tournaments comes down to how well you match up versus other armies and the missions. The SR gives a DoA army a mobile weapons platform - something that jump infantry units cannot derive. We have the best jump infantry army in the game - combining that with an SR is just brutal. Experience is a lot more telling than theory hammer - that's just the way it is.

 

G

 

Here is where I think his thinking is.... different then some of us... he wouldn't bring a DOA army, or maybe a real theam army at all, to many variables... there are more reliable, tried and tested alternatives (unless that theme wins).

 

I havn't stated it's a perfect thing to run, all i say is that reading the codex and dismissing it as garbage, when there are defiantly others that can and do win with them, is wrong...

 

simply because playtesting isn't really reliable unless you have played a lot of games against a multitude of skilled oppenents each playing different armies. Many people (who defend the Raven with utter determination) haven't done this...and probably never will.

 

this is the telltale problem.. playtesting isn't reliable, but reading stat blocks is... does he play-test his armies before a tourny, i'll be he does. the ON"Y realible way to see if somethign works is to playtest the hell out of it... Sure you can just ignore it as a variable, that you can bypass, but that doens't make it a bad unit, and as BO says, for a DOA army, it adds somethng that is missing... for a fast army it's adding somthing that is missing...

[Bartali]

People love the "Point, Click, Boom" lists.

Which I think is sad. It takes away from some of the ...variety (?) that is a sad thing to me.

 

SR's require more than racing forward with RazorBacks, Spaming anti-tank, and getting your "IWinButton" unit.

 

Which is ironically the exact problem with the Storm Raven. If you're carrying cargo, then you absolutely have to rush forward to deposit them as soon as possible. There's no point hanging around in back field with it, as you will get shot to bits.

 

Probably the best tactic I've seen for it is keeping it in reserve. It'll need the rest of your list building around it, and will probably work better at higher points (SR+cargo is at least 1/3 of your points at 1500)

[Wahotsu]

Shatter-

 

what was your SR loadout?