Marmande Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Quick note, and I am sorry to say this, Crowe isn't an IC. From what I have been able to glean from the draft PDF Vindicatus has it totally right. This is due in part to the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, no character appears to have this rule and therefore doesn't count as part of the "brotherhood." Well it's a good thing the pdf isn't the final version. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Let's just hope the final version isn't worst :D Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 As stated, I've not read the file, but the things I have seen make me question how that works. How does he give FC to his unit then? The only HQ's I've ever seen are IC's or solos (like Mephiston/Sanguinor). If he comes with optional retinue, that could make sense; but that's the only other way I can think of him giving FC to his unit other than him being an IC. The realistic stuff out there makes him look to be an IC, so any further elaboration from others who have the file would be great. Not being an IC is still not a deal breaker, he would still be one to hang close to 2 squads of Purifiers. Make a box around him forcing multiple combat on assault... Purifiers/Crowe/Purifiers. Crowe doesn't give FC to his unit, he gives it to enemy units charging him. His daemonsword makes them angry. Very angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 That. Which coupled with him not being an IC with Sanguinator/Meph stat makes him *utterly* useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The stats aren't too bad per se, though base attacks (on the vanilla bro-champ too) would be great. As a non-IC he really needs better overall survivability and speed. As he doesn't have TDA I'd suggest maybe giving him a teleporter park or at least fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I plan on keeping the possible metal Crowe model in reserve and throwing it at any player that cries "cheese" to my long-deserved codex. Not utterly useless. ;) Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhalyar Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Even if he stays as-is (doubt it), he'll still be extremely useful for making Purifiers troops. Plus you can still move him up to to your opponent's big gribbly monsters and watch them shirk away in fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I've been play testing Crowe quite a bit and I have to say even without IC and giving any unit that assaults him FC he really isn't that bad. Rending on any to-wound roll of 4+ is simply great when you included the Brotherhood Champion abilities along with Cleansing Flame. Since he is on his own you can usually keep him from being assaulted I have found. You can hide him places and keep him out of the way. HMK has it right, keep him around or near your Purifier squads and he makes an AMAZING counter charge unit. Also, since he lacks IC, he can be given any of the Grand Strategy buffs, suddenly you have a character that can SCORE! Testing him out with a buddy of mine Crowe managed to take out an entire Guard Blob Platoon that he got the charge on. Reason being that as only one guy it is hard to get tons of models in close to have their attacks count (within 2" of his base). Cleansing Flame tore through the Guard unit and Crowe was able to re-roll everyone of his saves and his huge WS was fending off the majority of attacks. When the Commissar died the whole unit broke and Crowe chased them down with his huge initiative score. He did all of this and only took one wound in a couple rounds of combat. An absolutely frightening thing to watch only one character accomplish. The Heroic Sacrifice power has so far taken out both Mephiston (beat his hood roll) and The Sanguinator much to my opponent's shock. I like to take him and Mordrak (pricey I know) but you get solid troops, CHEAP Terminators that deep strike turn 1, and can still get Grand Strategy too. As a cheap go to HQ I rather like Crowe and have been impressed with his strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 He will/should be shot to death before he gets into CC with anything. It's the same flaw as the old Assassins. Sure, you can stick him in a LR/SR, but that's a 200+ point transport used to deliver him to something where he best attack is to be killed by it then try to remove it form play. He's rubbish. Even if he stays as-is (doubt it), he'll still be extremely useful for making Purifiers troops. Unless oyu really don't want to take anything from the troop slot (and warp quake is pure win), use The Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers Scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I've been play testing Crowe quite a bit and I have to say even without IC and giving any unit that assaults him FC he really isn't that bad. Rending on any to-wound roll of 4+ is simply great when you included the Brotherhood Champion abilities along with Cleansing Flame. Since he is on his own you can usually keep him from being assaulted I have found. You can hide him places and keep him out of the way. HMK has it right, keep him around or near your Purifier squads and he makes an AMAZING counter charge unit. Also, since he lacks IC, he can be given any of the Grand Strategy buffs, suddenly you have a character that can SCORE! Testing him out with a buddy of mine Crowe managed to take out an entire Guard Blob Platoon that he got the charge on. Reason being that as only one guy it is hard to get tons of models in close to have their attacks count (within 2" of his base). Cleansing Flame tore through the Guard unit and Crowe was able to re-roll everyone of his saves and his huge WS was fending off the majority of attacks. When the Commissar died the whole unit broke and Crowe chased them down with his huge initiative score. He did all of this and only took one wound in a couple rounds of combat. An absolutely frightening thing to watch only one character accomplish. The Heroic Sacrifice power has so far taken out both Mephiston (beat his hood roll) and The Sanguinator much to my opponent's shock. I like to take him and Mordrak (pricey I know) but you get solid troops, CHEAP Terminators that deep strike turn 1, and can still get Grand Strategy too. As a cheap go to HQ I rather like Crowe and have been impressed with his strength. That is insane!! ;) If he plays that well for me, I might make him a staple unit. Of course, I think the key to him is to use him like you did: against big scary HQs or large weak units, I don't think he would fair well against a full squad of Meqs. We'll see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 The reason I don't think Hammer Hand can stack is because of the power "Might of Titian" makes a big fuss being cumulative. Seeing this, I think the wording of Hammer Hand would mention stacking. Who knows how it will work in the final codex. The only reason that Might of Titan exists is so that Librarians can get a double Strength bonus. A Librarian can't cast the same power twice, so they created a second that is only for the librarian. That doesn't mean that HH doesn't stack. As long as the rules don't prevent it, there is no way I am not utilizing stacked HH and Quicksilver to give me S8 I10 power weapon attacks!!!!!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Triple post from frozen computer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Triple post from frozen computer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 He will/should be shot to death before he gets into CC with anything. It's the same flaw as the old Assassins. Sure, you can stick him in a LR/SR, but that's a 200+ point transport used to deliver him to something where he best attack is to be killed by it then try to remove it form play. He's rubbish. Even if he stays as-is (doubt it), he'll still be extremely useful for making Purifiers troops. Unless oyu really don't want to take anything from the troop slot (and warp quake is pure win), use The Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers Scoring. SR has a transport capacity of 12, so you can stick him with purifiers and not waste the points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 As stated, I've not read the file, but the things I have seen make me question how that works. How does he give FC to his unit then? The only HQ's I've ever seen are IC's or solos (like Mephiston/Sanguinor). If he comes with optional retinue, that could make sense; but that's the only other way I can think of him giving FC to his unit other than him being an IC. The realistic stuff out there makes him look to be an IC, so any further elaboration from others who have the file would be great. Not being an IC is still not a deal breaker, he would still be one to hang close to 2 squads of Purifiers. Make a box around him forcing multiple combat on assault... Purifiers/Crowe/Purifiers. Crowe doesn't give FC to his unit, he gives it to enemy units charging him. His daemonsword makes them angry. Very angry. That makes more sense. The thing I am reading is written poorly. Was kinda puzzled how the daemon sword was making the good guys better. So Assault them first, gotcha. The set up still works though... excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 He will/should be shot to death before he gets into CC with anything. It's the same flaw as the old Assassins. Sure, you can stick him in a LR/SR, but that's a 200+ point transport used to deliver him to something where he best attack is to be killed by it then try to remove it form play. He's rubbish. Even if he stays as-is (doubt it), he'll still be extremely useful for making Purifiers troops. Unless oyu really don't want to take anything from the troop slot (and warp quake is pure win), use The Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers Scoring. Honestly he really isn't rubbish, he isn't great sure, but he isn't rubbish. He totally will get shot down before he ever gets killed in CC. On the note of using Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers scoring then you eat up elite slots and adds in the cost of two troop units. Gray Knights are going to be REALLY tight on points and this is an easy and efficient way to unlock a very strong unit as troops. Remember, The Grand Strategy is random and you could end up with being able to buff only one unit. This isn't just about making Purifiers scoring, its more about changing up the FOC. Warp Quake is great, no argument there, but Purifiers are down right scary as they appear in the draft PDF. Once we get the real codex then I'll be more inclined to talk about the limitations of individual choices. I would much rather talk about the benefits and possible tactics that we see from the PDF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Option 1 : Use extra troop slots to negate deepstrike and create large voids of ":cuss: you, I win" in case anyone feels cagey enough to try it anyways. Possibly wipe out units in an army that would have caused trouble. Get shot at. Possibly get charged by something they have extreme difficulty hurting. Suffer losses. Take a short jog away, possibly allowing other units with long ranged weaponry to push in the poo of above described baddy. Resume at beginning of Option 1. Option 2 : Buy Crowe and have purifiers as troops. No 'I win' bubble. Try to close the gap between units to get into close combat (be it by bad dice rolls, faster troops, or placement of terrain). Get shot at a lot more. Get charged by something that, in close combat, they have extreme difficulty hurting. GET STUCK THERE BECAUSE THEY ARE FEARLESS. I think I'll stick with troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drazzo Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'm just wondering how the psychic powers will work with SSGK when you split them into combat squads. Will both mini-squads get to use the power separately, or when one uses it will both count as used and get the benefits (HH for example). If the latter then this could lead to some crazy shooting with storm bolters on Purgations squads (Astral Aim) :cuss . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhalyar Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Honestly he really isn't rubbish, he isn't great sure, but he isn't rubbish. He totally will get shot down before he ever gets killed in CC. On the note of using Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers scoring then you eat up elite slots and adds in the cost of two troop units. Gray Knights are going to be REALLY tight on points and this is an easy and efficient way to unlock a very strong unit as troops. Remember, The Grand Strategy is random and you could end up with being able to buff only one unit. This isn't just about making Purifiers scoring, its more about changing up the FOC. Warp Quake is great, no argument there, but Purifiers are down right scary as they appear in the draft PDF. Once we get the real codex then I'll be more inclined to talk about the limitations of individual choices. I would much rather talk about the benefits and possible tactics that we see from the PDF. You summed it up pretty well. For something at 1850 points: Crowe Librarian + 3 powers (Shrouding, Warp Rift and whatever else) Techmarine (Conversion Beamer) Techmarine (Conversion Beamer) 6x Purifiers (2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, Rhino) 6x Purifiers (2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, Rhino) 6x Purifiers (2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, Rhino) 5x Purgation (4x Psycannons, Razorback) 5x Purgation (4x Psycannons, Razorback) 5x Purgation (4x Psycannons, Razorback) And still a few points to spare; if Warp Stabilization Field really provides a Perils re-roll bubble then that's something to grab. The third Purgation squad could probably be switched to Incinerators + 5xSS to warp quake. If Crowe becomes an IC then wonderful; even MEQ can't quite shrug off two Cleansing Flames. Otherwise he'll slog it with the Librarian and woe to any MC that approaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 He will/should be shot to death before he gets into CC with anything. It's the same flaw as the old Assassins. Sure, you can stick him in a LR/SR, but that's a 200+ point transport used to deliver him to something where he best attack is to be killed by it then try to remove it form play. He's rubbish. Even if he stays as-is (doubt it), he'll still be extremely useful for making Purifiers troops. Unless oyu really don't want to take anything from the troop slot (and warp quake is pure win), use The Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers Scoring. Honestly he really isn't rubbish, he isn't great sure, but he isn't rubbish. He totally will get shot down before he ever gets killed in CC. On the note of using Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers scoring then you eat up elite slots and adds in the cost of two troop units. Gray Knights are going to be REALLY tight on points and this is an easy and efficient way to unlock a very strong unit as troops. Remember, The Grand Strategy is random and you could end up with being able to buff only one unit. This isn't just about making Purifiers scoring, its more about changing up the FOC. Warp Quake is great, no argument there, but Purifiers are down right scary as they appear in the draft PDF. Once we get the real codex then I'll be more inclined to talk about the limitations of individual choices. I would much rather talk about the benefits and possible tactics that we see from the PDF. An excellent summary. His argument can be made of most EVERYTHING in 40K. Given that Purifiers are in Power Armor, 5 man squads in Razorbacks just seem natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 He will/should be shot to death before he gets into CC with anything. It's the same flaw as the old Assassins. Sure, you can stick him in a LR/SR, but that's a 200+ point transport used to deliver him to something where he best attack is to be killed by it then try to remove it form play. He's rubbish. Even if he stays as-is (doubt it), he'll still be extremely useful for making Purifiers troops. Unless oyu really don't want to take anything from the troop slot (and warp quake is pure win), use The Grand Strategy to make your Purifiers Scoring. SR has a transport capacity of 12, so you can stick him with purifiers and not waste the points Without being an IC he still can't join a unit and ride with them in a transport, regardless of what the transport capacity is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Option 1 : Use extra troop slots to negate deepstrike and create large voids of ":): you, I win" in case anyone feels cagey enough to try it anyways. Possibly wipe out units in an army that would have caused trouble. Get shot at. Possibly get charged by something they have extreme difficulty hurting. Suffer losses. Take a short jog away, possibly allowing other units with long ranged weaponry to push in the poo of above described baddy. Resume at beginning of Option 1. Option 2 : Buy Crowe and have purifiers as troops. No 'I win' bubble. Try to close the gap between units to get into close combat (be it by bad dice rolls, faster troops, or placement of terrain). Get shot at a lot more. Get charged by something that, in close combat, they have extreme difficulty hurting. GET STUCK THERE BECAUSE THEY ARE FEARLESS. I think I'll stick with troops. I'm perfectly fine with Purifiers as troops, even with fearless. They hit gloriously hard, and Cleansing Flame is a brilliant power and isn't reliant on strength or toughness. In the play tests I have had so far these guys are AMAZING in close combat and honestly there isn't much they can't deal with. Wounds caused with CF count towards combat resolution which is HUGE, GIANT EVEN. If you add in halberds they cost all of 1 more point than a standard PAGK with a halberd. They also get Incinerators for free which cost a normal GKSS 20 points a pop. You lose Warp Quake, which is an awesome power, but you gain many other benefits for a great price. I love these guys as troops, and I love them as elite choices too. If they get stuck in combat a unit they can't take what will happen to them? They die! What will happen to GKSS if they get stuck in combat with a unit they can't take? More than likely, they die too. ATSKNF is a powerful tool but if the squad gets caught by a Sweeping Advance they are treated as a Fearless Unit would be. The only difference between a Fearless unit and a unit with ATSKNF is a D6 roll, which if you are up against a unit with a higher initiative isn't easy. I frequently remind people at my FLGS this when playing against my Eldar that you don't automatically get away. Warp Quake is amazing, and there are some powerful armies that this can really mess up. How often you encounter these armies really adds to the value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertboxer Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 something i just noticed in the leaked pdf gk termies have access to both frag and krak grenades this may just be my ignorance showing, but isn't this an anomaly? i can't think of other termies off the top of my head with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Yes there's no way at all Crowe not being an IC in the playtest pdf with written notes in the margins that denoted it as a work in progress was surely without a mistake. :D Seriously guys, he'll be an IC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHolker Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Without being an IC he still can't join a unit and ride with them in a transport, regardless of what the transport capacity is. It's not a dedicated transport. If Crowe can't ride with a squad in a Stormraven, neither can a dreadnought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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