Grey Knight Rumors Thread

[Zhukov]

Hide him in the bushes and hope for the best / Death to your leader!

:D

 

Maybe this credits opponents with too much foresight/intelligence but taking either route here isn't going to be viable once other armies have had to time to check out the new codex too. It's very reliant on believing the enemy will act in a predicable manner and requires Crowe to keep up with the pace of your forces. After a while I predict many armies & HQs will find ways to outmanoeuvre him or/and find other ways to tie him up. These aims would be much easier to achieve alone if Crowe had more (hopefully self-reliant ;)) manoeuvrability.

It's not ideal; but this list will rarely (never?) need to rush forward; depending again on the psycannons ofc. Therefore it's really not hard to hide him behind a rhino or terrain... Good enough I think.

 

Should you really have to divert units to assist a HQ? In such a small army you won't want to take away possible scoring resources from the front-line to guard a non-scoring asset. Crowe should be working toward helping you to achieve objectives, not hindering them.

I don't really see the problem of 'stealing' a rhino from 1 of the squads if I'm honest. But this comes down to the psycannon again: If it's as good as I hope they are then I can't imagine a game where it hurts if you leave at least 1 squad behind to camp an objective and/or provide fire support... I wouldn't call this the need for 'babysitting'. But again: yes it's not optimal, but good enough I think.

 

Buying him a Storm Raven is actually the least competative option at the moment to me ironicly enough :) But that's more because of my scepsis towards Storm Ravens which I haven't played with myself yet. (I will though, finished assembling one today actually)

 

And yes, I like the flexibility of this list setup myself too!

[greatcrusade08]

sorry i havent read the previous 34 pages.. but i had a sneak peak at the GK dex and two things come to mind..

 

1: were they having a special 2 for 1 on nemesis force weapons? everyone and thier mum gets them.. although 200 points for 5 guys is expensive so it balances out.

 

2: those dreadknights are evil, those stats, that save, that points cost... every list should have 3 :D

 

have you noticed the trend to name everything the same, the word nemesis seems overused IMO

[Brovius]

but i had a sneak peak at the GK dex and two things come to mind..

 

The leaked playtest codex, or a copy of the real one?

[Gentlemanloser]

Crowe, 150 points, and a liability on the countercharge.

 

5 Purifiers with Force Halbards and 2 Psycannons, 150 points, and have much more killing potential, and survivability. And *deadly* on the countercharge, especially with Countercharge! :tu: (Go Go Grand Strategy!) And they still get Crowes only good attack, Cleansing Flame. (Let's not forget, if Crowe uses his Cleansing Flame, as most exmaples of hime doing anything are using, he can't use Heroic Sacrifice, as he's Psycher Mastery 1...)

 

If you're not taking him only to unlock Purifiers as Troops, why take him at all? He's not worth it and a liability. A waste of a brilliant SC idea.

[Marmande]

Well, you wouldn't really want to waste Heroic Sacrifice on a unit of Hormagaunts, but that's me...:tu:

[Chengar Qordath]

1: were they having a special 2 for 1 on nemesis force weapons? everyone and thier mum gets them.. although 200 points for 5 guys is expensive so it balances out.

Well, the old/current codex has every GK using a Nemesis weapon too, it's just there wasn't as much variety within the Nemesis Weapons.

[DinoDoc]

Am I the only one dieing to find out what an Empyrean Brain Mine is?

[Resv]

C'mon, let's keep it friendly here. I hope you don't always take critiques so personally when they're thrown at the inanimate subject matter, especially for something that is someone else's work and could become forgotten history within a month. It's fair enough if you have an alternate opinion on the topic but it won't help to directly insult people for voicing a unfavourable criticism towards it. You're just going to have to be more respectful to board members if you hope to be convincing.

 

Zhukov has a strong line-up and gains credit for leaving his list open to flexibility - 50+ points left over on 1750 upwards, easy exchange of DKs for other vehicles, fills up on psycannons that can be swapped out for cheaper alternatives, etc. But some of those tactics aren't so persuasive :

1. Hide him in the bushes and hope for the best / Death to your leader!
   Maybe this credits opponents with too much foresight/intelligence but taking either route here isn't going to be viable once other armies have had to time to check out the new codex too. It's very reliant on believing the enemy will act in a predicable manner and requires Crowe to keep up with the pace of your forces. After a while I predict many armies & HQs will find ways to outmanoeuvre him or/and find other ways to tie him up. These aims would be much easier to achieve alone if Crowe had more (hopefully self-reliant :)) manoeuvrability.
    
   
2. Bring in some babysitters.
   Should you really have to divert units to assist a HQ? In such a small army you won't want to take away possible scoring resources from the front-line to guard a non-scoring asset. Crowe should be working toward helping you to achieve objectives, not hindering them.
   
3. Flyers to the rescue.
   This I can see happening, especially with Zhukov's list that he placed up above. Swap a DK for an SR and you still have plenty of firepower on the move. In smaller games this may be more problematic. This is where having to make leeway for a 200pt+ flying transport just for a single character in a 1000-1500 point game starts to stick out as being cost ineffective.
   

Some nice ideas that make full use of the Purifiers. I like that when using this list you can comfortably switch over to incinerators or other NFW upgrades if you want to change your tactics. Let's hope GW don't dramatically alter their cheap costs - they may soon loose the appeal they're gathering amongst those who already have plans for them.

 

Not trying to be rude mate, but it seems like this same series of comments is just destined to come up again and again. I keep trying to say that Crowe isn't all that bad, he isn't great, but he can be worth it. We are presented with a draft PDF that could be completely different than what we will end up with. With that in mind I have said that we shouldn't be drawing such definitive judgments but instead should be focusing on the positive as well as the possible tactics we can glean from what information we have. Appreciating the possible work for what it probably is, a work in progress.

 

Again, not meaning to be rude, but I do think it is short sighted to refer to we don't even know will eventually look like as "a one trick pony." I have had some pretty good success using Crowe, as well as using many other options from the codex and have been very happy all around (I do wish I knew what all of the war gear does but). It isn't that I think your opinion is invalid, unwarranted, or even wrong really as I don't know what the final codex will look like. True I don't agree with comments this mainly stems from my general dislike of people prejudging this codex and so easily. Infact I think you said it prefectly well your self when you said "there is a feeling that he doesn't seem fully realized yet"(I know I am using this quote again but it is very apt).

 

Apologies to you if there was any wounding of character or pride, that was not my intention and I am genuinely sorry.

 

SO! What are people's opinions on the possible use of the 30 inch teleport of GKSS and Dreadknights. I have been thinking of ways this can be used to truly mess up an opponent on turn one, teleporting in units right on top of my enemy's deployment. Also, do you think teleporting 30 inches directly from reserves might be possible?

[The Paladin]

SO! What are people's opinions on the possible use of the 30 inch teleport of GKSS and Dreadknights. I have been thinking of ways this can be used to truly mess up an opponent on turn one, teleporting in units right on top of my enemy's deployment. Also, do you think teleporting 30 inches directly from reserves might be possible?

 

I'm actually thinking about the possibilities of the 30" shunt with Scout moves (from Grand Strategy). Theoretically, if we have first turn. We make our free scout move which will probably allow the 30" shunt (since 24" turbo boost is allowable as a scout move), move again during our 1st turn movement phase, and our DK's or GKSS are IN THEIR FACE! :D

[Resv]

That's a very interesting idea! That way, first turn, we could still use all of the heavy weapons on our units or assault. Our opponents might plan for it however, which is kinda nice since the 30 inch shunt can be used any turn really. I know this will end up a very expensive codex but I am glad to see so many flexible ways to deploy the force. Scouting GKSS followed up by teleporting Dreadkinghts scare the hell out of me as a Space Marine player.

 

Edit-

Storm Ravens can't scout, stupid Resv. Thanks to Brother Dylan for pointing that out.

[Brother Dylan]

That's a very interesting idea! That way, first turn, we could still use all of the heavy weapons on our units or assault. Our opponents might plan for it however, which is kinda nice since the 30 inch shunt can be used any turn really. I know this will end up a very expensive codex but I am glad to see so many flexible ways to deploy the force. Scouting Storm Ravens followed up by teleporting Dreadkinghts scare the hell out of me as a Space Marine player.

 

According to the pdf we cannot scout the stormravens. I think the worst abuse of the Grand-strategy will be either scouting melee dreadnights, or scoring shooty dreadnights.

[Resv]

Ohhhhhhhh, yeah... I should have remembered that. I'll adjust my above comment.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm actually thinking about the possibilities of the 30" shunt with Scout moves (from Grand Strategy). Theoretically, if we have first turn. We make our free scout move which will probably allow the 30" shunt (since 24" turbo boost is allowable as a scout move), move again during our 1st turn movement phase, and our DK's or GKSS are IN THEIR FACE!

 

Scout Moves can't take you closer than 12" to your opponent, so the Shut would be wasted on a Scout move, when you would have a 12" Scout move anyway.

[synack]

I'm actually thinking about the possibilities of the 30" shunt with Scout moves (from Grand Strategy). Theoretically, if we have first turn. We make our free scout move which will probably allow the 30" shunt (since 24" turbo boost is allowable as a scout move), move again during our 1st turn movement phase, and our DK's or GKSS are IN THEIR FACE!

 

Scout Moves can't take you closer than 12" to your opponent, so the Shut would be wasted on a Scout move, when you would have a 12" Scout move anyway.

 

How would it be wasted? Scout move to 12" away. First turn, move 12", charge.

[RedemptionNL]

I'm actually thinking about the possibilities of the 30" shunt with Scout moves (from Grand Strategy). Theoretically, if we have first turn. We make our free scout move which will probably allow the 30" shunt (since 24" turbo boost is allowable as a scout move), move again during our 1st turn movement phase, and our DK's or GKSS are IN THEIR FACE!

 

Scout Moves can't take you closer than 12" to your opponent, so the Shut would be wasted on a Scout move, when you would have a 12" Scout move anyway.

 

Unless the opponent deployed second and placed the model(s) you want to go after with your Dreadknight far away from it, which is relatively easy to do in the deployment type where you only have a table quarter minus the 24" circle in the middle. Then the Shunt obviously wouldn't be wasted.

 

Of course, that's assuming they don't rule out Scout Shunting in the final codex anyway. :(

[Gentlemanloser]

/shrug

 

Sure, if your opponent deploys all thier stuff on thier board edge, and are something like 36" away from the edge of your deployment, then go for it.

 

I've hardly ever had that happen (well, once in all my 5th Ed gaming time, from an ultra shooty foot Eldar list, who wanted to stay as far away from the TWC as possible!), especially with the advantage CC units have in 5th.

 

Personally, I'm thinking of saving the 30" shunt for Objective contesting shenanigens! :(

[Oiad]

I don't really see the problem of 'stealing' a rhino from 1 of the squads if I'm honest. But this comes down to the psycannon again: If it's as good as I hope they are then I can't imagine a game where it hurts if you leave at least 1 squad behind to camp an objective and/or provide fire support... I wouldn't call this the need for 'babysitting'. But again: yes it's not optimal, but good enough I think.

 

Buying him a Storm Raven is actually the least competitive option at the moment to me ironically enough :) But that's more because of my scepticism towards Storm Ravens which I haven't played with myself yet. (I will though, finished assembling one today actually)

 

And yes, I like the flexibility of this list setup myself too!

Glad, they were taken as being jovial remarks – it was the intention. :)

In hindsight, my reply was a bit harsh. After all no strategy is completely infallible and I congratulate you for at least attempting to fit him in. Imo, the SR isn't a bad trade for a 205pt DK. It may not have same level of resistance but if it still has ceramite plating (with the added fortitude power) it should be better protected that most vehicles of similar AV against melta-spam. What else can you expect at similar costs and in lieu of transportation abilities? My only problem with it is it could be interpreted as an additional cost to Crowe if transporting him is all that it's primarily intended for. If the plan always required speedy fire-support too - to fill in some of the role that the DK would've played then it's purpose is more justifiable. Let's just hope the idea works in action, huh?

 

Not trying to be rude mate, but it seems like this same series of comments is just destined to come up again and again. I keep trying to say that Crowe isn't all that bad, he isn't great, but he can be worth it. We are presented with a draft PDF that could be completely different than what we will end up with. With that in mind I have said that we shouldn't be drawing such definitive judgments but instead should be focusing on the positive as well as the possible tactics we can glean from what information we have. Appreciating the possible work for what it probably is, a work in progress.

 

Again, not meaning to be rude, but I do think it is short sighted to refer to we don't even know will eventually look like as "a one trick pony." I have had some pretty good success using Crowe, as well as using many other options from the codex and have been very happy all around (I do wish I knew what all of the war gear does but). It isn't that I think your opinion is invalid, unwarranted, or even wrong really as I don't know what the final codex will look like. True I don't agree with comments this mainly stems from my general dislike of people prejudging this codex and so easily. Infact I think you said it prefectly well your self when you said "there is a feeling that he doesn't seem fully realized yet"(I know I am using this quote again but it is very apt).

 

Apologies to you if there was any wounding of character or pride, that was not my intention and I am genuinely sorry.

Hehe, hurt my pride? Not quite, you can keep trying but when I enter these forums any pride is left at the entrance. ;)

 

More that overtly-intolerant attitudes were quickly rearing it's ugly head. It's not a game I care to engross in nor does it lead to a situation anyone would want: the debasing and possible closure the of the entire thread. But still your previous comments are more respectable. There are after all many other issues we agree on after all and it would be a waste getting too wound up over a single point.

 

We only really differ on 'focusing on the positives'. It's subjective term for one, which isn't necessarily going to cause wide agreement – as seen with Crowe. The second is that even the 'agreed' positive parts in the codex could have been changed. As an example (taken from another thread) Tastytaste @ BoK already confirmed that GKSS with teleporters in the leak can now only be taken as Fast options instead of as Troops. Such news undeniably change line-ups and strategies and will make some players unhappy. Alternatively there's been talk about whether the leak is deliberate misinformation on GWs part, which could mean a lot of what we know is irrelevant. Not that many believe it. In either case it shows it's probably not best to meticulously plan ahead for the future yet - better just to have fun jesting with these rumour and wait it out until we know what we'll have for sure.

 

As for Crowe, let's cut to the chase - I call Crowe a 'one trick pony' because I doubt many would take him otherwise. No doubt there are certain situations where he could be handy but would you really take him for, say 100-120ish points without his Keeper of Anarch rule? Do you think many other people would either?

 

EDIT - Correcting sources.

[the jeske]

No doubt there are certain situations where he could be handy but would you really take him for, say 100-120ish points without his Keeper of Anarch rule?

would people take vulkan if he didnt twin link melta and make TH master crafted ?

your question is an odd one. Crowe is a cheap chara , he boosts a good unit that can take a good weapon , what is there not to like about him ? that he dies or that he can be sniped ? who cares . with cover and going down it takes a lot of str 8+ [as in 5 to be sure] ap 2 weapons to kill him and he has to be in LoS of the units shoting.

[Gentlemanloser]

what is there not to like about him ? that he dies or that he can be sniped ? who cares

 

That he is, unlike Vulkan, a liability? Vulkan is far more 'useful' (Army configuration abilities aside) as a SC than Crowe is.

[Vindicatus]

Alright, so after a weekend of hunkering down and working on my vow, I'll pop in and make a few comments.

 

I'm going to have to go with the majority of nay-sayers against Crowe on this one. Yes, taking Purifiers as troops is a pretty awesome ability. The problem is you're taking away a combat-squad's worth of models for one guy, who will invariably be shot to death without being able to get to the foe in a quick and orderly fashion. A solution to this might be to pull a Purifier squad out of a rhino first time, and let him hop in it to go jostling across the board in hopes of surviving the withering hail of fire that's going to be shot at that vehicle because your opponent know's whats in it. While I understand that without risk, there can be no reward, this just leans too heavily on the 'risk' side for me. However, thanks to the way various characters and HQ units work, we're no longer pigeon-holed to our choices and have one of the most versatile and adaptable armies in the entirety of the game. While every character or build can be said to be worthwhile in the right situation, that 'useful' list is awfully small for him. QED: he's too much of a liability at present standpoint, in my eyes at least.

[Marmande]

So what would you guys think if Crowe was an IC in the final codex?

 

EDIT: I've half a mind to wager a copy of the new codex on this question. :)

[Vindicatus]

If they made him an IC, I think he would IMMEDIATELY become a lot more versatile. If made an IC and joining a unit of Purifiers? Extremely deadly. Have the unit pop Cleansing Flame and either do the same with Crowe, or hold it back in the rare instant that said unit has a special character in it to Heroic Sacrifice him, should it be necessary. The fact that he can't even be taken as an upgrade to his own brotherhood is boggling to the mind. Stand-alone, I see him as iffy at best, but I'd definitely offer a lot more positive consideration to including him in my force if he could join up with someone.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not being an IC, at least it's only himself that suffers when the enemy assaults him with FC and rerolls...

 

Get rid of that, and make him an IC and you've got a superb Character, with rules and fluff to match.

[Zhukov]

what is there not to like about him ? that he dies or that he can be sniped ? who cares

 

That he is, unlike Vulkan, a liability? Vulkan is far more 'useful' (Army configuration abilities aside) as a SC than Crowe is.

Not true. Marines rather not take a combat Captain, it doesn't support their builds nearly as well as a Libby + other units would. Taking Vulkan means you need a place for him too...which almost forces you to take Hammernators in a Land Raider. Or putting him with units which don't want to be near assaults generally speaking (tacticals, sternguard) While looking in a vacuum vulkan might seem a good deal for his combat abilities already; in reality he's not.

 

 

While I can understand that people call Crowe limited (notice my choice of words) as a Character on his own, saying he's not good enough is simply impossible if you agree that the build I suggest is strong. Simply because that build isn't possible without him! Therefore if that build is good; he's good too, that's really undeniable logic. Never forget: 40k isn't about single units, it's about a whole list...

[lordsloth]

Personally, I'd make him an IC but definitely keep the furious charge thing.

That way you can attach him if you want but doing so comes at a cost.

It seems like a solid middleroad to me. You gain some delivery potential for Crowe but the squad looses some melee survivability if they get charged in return.

I'm not a fan of the grey knight wielding a daemon sword thing, but if they insist on doing so then I quite like the idea that it has a downside. (It jolly well should)

 

And honestly, he's not all that bad. Yes the lack of IC hurts (especially considering that he's a 'chaplain') and I'd like to see it fixed, but he has stuff going for him aside from just the purifier troops. Cleansing flame is great, 4+ rending is great (especially when combined with ini 10 and a force weapon, even if it is a lame new one). And all for a relatively lowish price. Yes getting him where he needs to be will be tricky if he doesnt get IC, but I'm sure we'll find ways around this if need be.