Gentlemanloser Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I'm not sure Fearless -> ATSKNF is a 'upgrade', specially when you're LD9. Running off the board from shooting is never fun. It's a far bigger upgrade than automatically suffering 'No Retreat' extra wounds. Everyone I know would trade Fearless for ATSKNF. As for running off board, take out the unit that's following you, then you regroup. Automatically. Even below half strength. And to run, you have to not only fail the Moral Check, but then succeed in the Sweeping Advance test (and to be honest, it's usuall high I foes that beat you in CC anyway...). ASTKNF in essence, gives you a Moral Test to avoid taking 'No Retreat' wounds. Which is a fantastic upgrade. Edit: It does make you a little more sucesstable to Pinning, but I'd make that trade. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I'm not sure Fearless -> ATSKNF is a 'upgrade', specially when you're LD9. Running off the board from shooting is never fun. It's a far bigger upgrade than automatically suffering 'No Retreat' extra wounds. Everyone I know would trade Fearless for ATSKNF. As for running off board, take out the unit that's following you, then you regroup. Automatically. Even below half strength. And to run, you have to not only fail the Moral Check, but then succeed in the Sweeping Advance test (and to be honest, it's usuall high I foes that beat you in CC anyway...). ASTKNF in essence, gives you a Moral Test to avoid taking 'No Retreat' wounds. Which is a fantastic upgrade. I know I wouldn't.... Fearless all the way if I could choose. Why? No Retreat wounds are rarely an issue... and pretty much never makes you lose a game. You know what does make you lose games? When you get Tankshocked and keep running because the vehicle stays within 6" of you, no regrouping for you... that does lose you games. And because we won't have meltas in our troops it's harder to prevent tankshocks, therefore even a Palladin or Ghost Knight unit can be made to flee. Guess which guys in the GK dex are still fearless? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Actually what loses the games for me is when the few troops I have on the table get stuck in a combat they can't win due to an inability to injure the foe, and are thusly wiped off the table. I highly, HIGHLY doubt someone is going to waste the time trying to chase a unit off the table when our purgation squads can shoot through damned near anything, and rumoured with high strength hit with rending. Sure, keep chasing my dude's towards the table edge and expose the side/rear armour. See just how far that gets you in your vainglorious attempt to push them off the board with the new lethality we now have access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHolker Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 It's a far bigger upgrade than automatically suffering 'No Retreat' extra wounds. Which never should have been done in the first place. Making the GKs take two steps backwards and one step forward isn't much of an upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Actually what loses the games for me is when the few troops I have on the table get stuck in a combat they can't win due to an inability to injure the foe, and are thusly wiped off the table. I'm inclined to call this theory talk... Looking at games: How do you get into combat with things you don't want? Next thing: Are you failing your Ld test? Unless you get beaten up severly (in which case you made a really big mistake ánd there is a chance the unit is dead anyway, GK squads don't tend to be that big) you'll still have a relatively high Ld... Then: You need to be able to get away, which isn't that easy with I4 and last but not least: you need to be able to regroup... In the case of Tactical Marines the benefits are way bigger (even more so with combat tactics), but I don't believe GK's will have much benefit of it. I highly, HIGHLY doubt someone is going to waste the time trying to chase a unit off the table when our purgation squads can shoot through damned near anything, and rumoured with high strength hit with rending. Sure, keep chasing my dude's towards the table edge and expose the side/rear armour. See just how far that gets you in your vainglorious attempt to push them off the board with the new lethality we now have access to. Theory again; that's not how it works (in my opinion). You don't instantly own all armour with GK's, not gonna happen. More: Rhinos? Hell yeah; i'll chase you with rhinos, no problem. Serpents are only vulnerable in the rear too and the tankshocking could happen on a side of the board etc etc. Also, the same unit doesn't have to stay within 6" of a squad; could be some other kind of unit too. But in the end, it will come down to personal preference. I guess people can decide themselves, we both gave enough reasons now I think :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreadmad Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Reading these rumours I think it will be interesting to see how people equip their GKSS's. If I was to make an 'all rounder' unit I'd probably either go bare bones (5 units for the price of 4 cost wise) or 6 halberds/4 falchions. This would open up some interesting initiative 'tactics', the obvious two being allocate I5 wounds to the halberds to get maximum attacks back, and you get 6 GK's attacks to thin out I4 models before they get chance to strike. I'm sure there are more, any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Reading these rumours I think it will be interesting to see how people equip their GKSS's.If I was to make an 'all rounder' unit I'd probably either go bare bones (5 units for the price of 4 cost wise) or 6 halberds/4 falchions. This would open up some interesting initiative 'tactics', the obvious two being allocate I5 wounds to the halberds to get maximum attacks back, and you get 6 GK's attacks to thin out I4 models before they get chance to strike, and I'm sure many more. Any thoughts to add to that? Vanilla, 10-strong with 2x Psycannons and a Rhino. That is your staple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Why? No Retreat wounds are rarely an issue... and pretty much never makes you lose a game I've had vastly different games to you then. :) At points, both our Eldar and Ork players have in frustration to this and multiple combats, vowed to quit 40K. (A big rock hard fearless unit, in combat with another squad that weaker. The lesser squad is wiped out to a man and no wounds done to the big rock hard unit. That unit then has to take 10+ wounds from being fearless.) I've seen Gaz (that ork guy) go down to this. I've lost a GKGM/GKT Squad (when the IST foced into combat with him were decimated while he was ignored), and done the same to the Eldar. It's a rubbish rule. And can *def* make you lose games. It's the one thing putting me off using Purifiers. They had ATSKNF I'd use them all the time... Unless you get beaten up severly (in which case you made a really big mistake ánd there is a chance the unit is dead anyway, GK squads don't tend to be that big) you'll still have a relatively high Ld... Get charged by 'letters, you go first due to rites, but thay make a lot of 5+ Invuln saves. In retunr thier Power Wepaons decimate your PAGK. The handful you have left then need to take many more armour saves due to Fearless... But it's the Multiple combats that kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 This could go on and on and probably in circles too... I'll just say that in the case of Orks it does indeed suck and maybe also if you somehow manage to get involved into multiple combats with Henchmen and GK units (something went wrong there? :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synack Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Things that suck when you're not fearless * Getting escourted off the board after you fail a combat * Getting escourted off the board when you get tanked shocked * Running off the board when you fail a ld check from losing 25% from shooting * Getting pinned when a vehicle is wrecked/explodes * Getting pinned from pinning weapons (There are lots) * Being a target to any and all morale based phsycic powers or abilities There are probably some I've missed, but you get the picture Things that suck when you're fearless * Taking no retreat wounds when you lose combat ... I can't come up with any other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 As fast they can still contest with a 30" move. With a GM, they could even score. :) I forgot about that! There really is no prupose to them being fast attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 This could go on and on and probably in circles too... LoL True! ;) Where's some more new juicy GK rumours? :) (Don't get me wrong, Fearless can be great. And I'd have it in a heatbeat for Shooty units. But it's one of the worth tihngs I've come across for CC units. That is, unless 'No Retreat' is removed from the game!) Fearless aside, I still think our new GKSS get a far better deal than our old PAGK. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulReaver296 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I would think that Iron Will would have worked well, with a few alterations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Things that suck when you're not fearless* Getting escourted off the board after you fail a combat * Getting escourted off the board when you get tanked shocked * Running off the board when you fail a ld check from losing 25% from shooting * Getting pinned when a vehicle is wrecked/explodes * Getting pinned from pinning weapons (There are lots) * Being a target to any and all morale based phsycic powers or abilities There are probably some I've missed, but you get the picture This has happened to me once in my four years of gaming. Things that suck when you're fearless* Taking no retreat wounds when you lose combat ... I can't come up with any other ones. I can't even begin to tell you how often this has happened to me, albeit, it's happened less and less the more I play and the better I get. Either way, I don't see any serious downside to getting ATSKNF instead of Fearless. If you do, well...play with Purifiers as your troops. If fearless is really that good than it shouldn't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I'm not worried so much with Purifiers and Fearless is Cleansing Flame, any wounds caused by this power count toward combat resolution. THAT IS HUGE and can really give a leg up against many opponents. YES these guys are still T4 in power armor and that isn't the greatest of all stats but these guys are not a death star unit, this is reflected in cost. The one rumor that I don't think really pans out for me is the Razor Backs being fast vehicles. I saw this on BoK and was very confused by it, can anyone clarify or confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulReaver296 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Its a test dex (or well executed fake), so they probably, LITERALLY, copied and pasted vehicles from the newest SM codex (in this case blood angels), and just edited from there. They probably skipped over the razor in editing, so it kept the original rules from C:BA, which include "Fast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I would think that Iron Will would have worked well, with a few alterations That is what they should have... But they would probably be too expensive. Either way, regardless of ATSKNF, we have a much improved capacity to control the game with the new dex. SRs and PTs let you control distance. Purgation Squads let you negate LoS. SBs let you move shoot and assault every turn. Nemesis bonuses allow you to control the kind of effects the nemesis gives you (I plan on magnetizing the arms). On the whole, I am pleased with the codex. It does a much better job of letting the GKs player have control of the various phases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulReaver296 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I know that I will be moaning about how "they took GKs and made them SM with pimped gear!" for a while, but I have no doubt that this will be a stronger dex, and one that I will EVENTUALLY, HOPEFULLY accept. Except for Draigo. He's gonna be spending a lot more time in the Warp when I get around to building armies. "Go do something useful, like defeat Tzeentch in checkers, beat up Khorne using An'ggrath the Unbound as a weapon, get a chastity belt on Slaanesh, and give Nurgle a sponge bath" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 This has happened to me once in my four years of gaming. You must be a very lucky player for this to happen once over 4 years of gaming, that or you don't game often. Failing Ld.9 is not unheard of. I've seen leadership tests cause the downfall of entire armies.. Lysander and a entire squad of Sternguard being escorted off the board by a Speeder.. for example. It happens.. and it freaking blows. My biggest gripe with not having Fearless (even if its tactically worse than ATSKNF) is that it's not fluffy. You're fighting Daemons - the manifestation of all of mankind's sins and horrors and you're not fearless? leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synack Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 This has happened to me once in my four years of gaming. Really? Cause I do it as often as I can vs non-fearless armies and it has won me games more often than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I can confirm that too: -With my Chaos I never wished my Plague Marines and Berzerkers were not fearless. -With Mech Eldar I hope my oppenents units are not fearless; I will tankshock you a lot and you will fail Ld tests if you want it or not. -With my GK's it's a little hard to judge, I'm afraid I haven't played a lot with them in 5th edition :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Really? Cause I do it as often as I can vs non-fearless armies and it has won me games more often than not. Non fearless Marine Armies? I've made a load of Eldar run off the board, who couldn't regroup for being below 1/2 str. In all my years of gaming, for Marine armies we've had Lysander and the Squad he was attached to forced to run off the board once. And that's it. My biggest gripe with not having Fearless (even if its tactically worse than ATSKNF) is that it's not fluffy. You're fighting Daemons - the manifestation of all of mankind's sins and horrors and you're not fearless? leave. ATSKNF fluff wise *is* fearless. It's in the name. :) Fearless is actually more of a fanatically disregard to tactical knowledge. Probably should be renamed to Zealotry or the like. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatball Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 As mentioned above fluff-wise GKs not being fearless is silly. Discussion between two Grey Knights: GK1: Oh look! That daemon is coming towards us to rip our heads off GK2: Lets retreat and see how the situation evolves *some minutes later GK2: What's the situation? GK1: Still wants to rip our heads off What I am trying to say is that ATSKNF is there to reflect the ability of Marines to tactically adapt to battlefield situations while not panicking. GK hunt daemons which are pretty straightforward when they take to the battlefield. Moreover as a Vanilla Marine player I use ATSKNF to fail 25% casualties morale tests to avoid being in assault range. This saved my skin several times now. However I believe GK want to be in combat having the option of better Initiative option, strength enhancement, power weapons and combat oriented psychic powers. Plus, with so few squads on the table and needing each one of them to something in each turn, being susceptible to pinning is a pain. Overall for GKs being fearless is better than having ATSKNF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 They're not stupid or tactically inept, and wouldn't want to be in CC, just like other marines. (And they fight more than just mindless Daemons as well! :) ) Espeically if Psybolt fire would do the job just as well. But this is getting more into fluff than rules/rumours. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Fearless has kinda evolved in the last few editions. It use to be represented by all types of units that couldn't be broken but now seems to favour those too full of zeal to make logical decisions in the heat of battle. When it comes to Grey Knights the problem is representing an unbreakable mentality that puts other chapters to shame, while giving them merit for retaining their tactical guile. ATSKNF doesn't do them justice as it basically suggests placing them on the level of training as every other SM chapter despite showing their ability to alter their tactics to an advantage. Fearless respects their unbreakable willpower but doesn't regard them as a flexible fighting force. Iron Will would be the closest fit for the Grey Knights now but would be understandably unfair without a large point increase. Of course we're neglecting the idea that the fluff for Grey Knights may have changed. That Grey Knights have now switched to ATSKNF is no real surprise when lining up everything else we're hearing - Grey Knights are in for a fluff nerfing. If this leak is real then some of the evidence could be interpreted as GW wanting to retcon part of the eliteness out of Grey Knights - to bring them more down to vanilla SM level, at least compared to the DH codex. Giving them more typical characteristics such as ATSKNF fit in with this. As such, I wonder whether they'll be any fluff about the trials at all... Forgoing Iron Will, on TT I personally favour having units that are Fearless. However, it's understandable how others don't like it. Things that suck when you're not fearless... This has happened to me once in my four years of gaming. Yeah, it's probably easier if you only play a handful of games a year, right? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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