Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It just seems to me they are fairweather chaos players. I believe that you stick to an army and don't run away when the codex isn't to your liking. IMO I don't care if people are bandwagon jumpers. That's not my problem. It's that people still buy the chaos models when they do it. If you feel that the chaos dex isn't worth playing and want to try something else then go do it, but leave your chaos models at home. Using Chaos for "counts as" loyalist lists hurts our chances of getting a new codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It just seems to me they are fairweather chaos players. I believe that you stick to an army and don't run away when the codex isn't to your liking. IMO you know that maybe true if you play a single game a month for 1year and then quit . Imagine you got the leaked dex in 4th ed tested the hell out of it . ended up with the 2dp oblit +zerker/csm/pm as most optimal build . then tested for 5th ed and got the same . then you tested each time a new came and 2dp oblit +zerker/pm/csm was always the only viable option . The dex is not just weak , it is freaking boring after 50 games you dont even want to touch a chaos army. And before you ask "so trying something unortodox" remember that I played NM for more then 2 years and that got boring too and B those unortodox builds suck hard . And sadly a lot of the game groups around the world dont realy react to "could you also play a gimped list so I can play with my gimped list too" and the "please take pity on me and dont make the game a NPE just because your army works and my doesnt". Not to mention that in case of gameplay the undivided legions work better played out of loyalist dex. 2-3 tacs 2-3scouts as cultits/AL operatives, sternguard as chosen +random HQ , good AL list. want a raptor cult army ? take the BA dex. Want an NL army build around bikes take sm dex with khan or sm cpt. When GK old dex was still legal sm inducted with some IST as cultists and demons did an ok [at least different from the DP/oblit/rhino troops] army. Using Chaos for "counts as" loyalist lists hurts our chances of getting a new codex. why ? the only thing that can bring a new chaos dex closer is not the dissatisfaction of players , but the fact if GW has new models for chaos ready or not . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 why ? the only thing that can bring a new chaos dex closer is not the dissatisfaction of players , but the fact if GW has new models for chaos ready or not . Yes, but what prompts the creation of new models...the lack of sales of the old. If you can still sell old product why would you shell out the capital for a new line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLBERZERKER Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 So what happens if I were to buy an Nid army and say " Hey I am Playing Space Wolves"? People would get mad because I have purchased one army and am playing rules of another. I don't see the difference between that and what those people are doing. I for one totally agree with Hiro above, that is not good for Chaos. Right now the last thing Chaos players should be doing is trying to inflate the sales of Chaos products. Corporations only understand one thing and that is sales/revenue. So not purchasing Chaos products will be punishing GW for making a completely craptastic codex and will send them a message that if they don't quit showing bias to all the Imperial Armies and actually create a FAIR GAME that they will lose money. Aside from the 5th edition D.E codex, name one none Imperial Army who has came out with a SOLID codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yes, but what prompts the creation of new models...the lack of sales of the old nope new models go for armies that sale well . armies that sell bad get a dex once every 10 years like orcs or DE. People would get mad because I have purchased one army and am playing rules of another. people would get mad if someone bough a SW army and started to play it too , what does that have to do with anything . Counts as is legal for this edition , enforced by GW . all the rules we had in 4th ed that a army of meq had to be painted X to use rules Y is gone . ight now the last thing Chaos players should be doing is trying to inflate the sales of Chaos products how many oblits would you like us to buy ? the chaos army is bad constructed at the level of codex . it is not that oblits or DPs are superior to other options [doesnt mean they arent better of course] , but their standing ins just plain suck . It even comes to the point that when those 150/255pts oblits units fit in to any army , stuff like raptors or bikes or preds or termis doesnt because suddenly we either end up with 30-40 pts left overs with nothig to buy or with illegal armies because of unit costs . A chaos player after buying 3 boxs of zerkers 2 dps and 3 box of csm [that can be used as pms too] and 9oblits +4 rhinos doesnt need to buy anything else .Worse if he wants a working list he shouldnt be buying anything else . A chaos player that does counts as is a double win for GW not only does he buy models that are not used . raptors or possessed packs to do a BA army , more weapon options for people using SW . ever seen a chaos player buying models to get 15 RL havocks ? + if they will offten buy stuff that is not chaos [landspeeders or baals] or TWC[or they will buy juggers to make them] . f they don't quit showing bias to all the Imperial Armies and actually create a FAIR GAME that they will lose money. they havent done that since 2ed[no idea how it worked in RT didnt play back then] and they never will . they always make imperial armies better and more flexible . Aside from the 5th edition D.E codex, name one none Imperial Army who has came out with a SOLID codex? orks were dominating the tournament sceen till IG and SW came out . they are not imperial . And DE are like nids one of the GW "balanced" dexs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardwc Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 From Warseer, Rumors from UK GW drinkin' buddy... *Warlord Titans about 1 1/2 years out... *Ogres 'n Dwarfs will be hittin' Warhammer Forge soon... *Data sheet style (Scrolls of Binding?) units/monsters/characters to arrive, to coincide with White Dwarf articles and Storm of Magic. *Expect BIG Chaos (40K) stuff to appear around Xmas time (for 1st Chaos Legions Codex) *Khornate Knights riding Juggernauts... BFTBG ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLBERZERKER Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 TO Jeske: Chaos was great in 3rd edition after the second codex came out. Eldar was great in third edition with the craftworld codex. Orks weren't bad either and Nids were awesome. Their is no reason why they have to show bias to the Imperial Armies. They don't do it in Fantasy.... If you don't understand the finer points of economics I can't help you. Go to the library or something man but do understand what I said is true. Case in point are the obliterators. No one really used them before this current codex, so its safe to say the sales of obliterators were down. What did GW do, they made them one of the best options in the current codex. The thing you have to learn is that GW is not in complete control, the consumers have alot power too. If everyone wrote letters and boycotted certain products they would definitely change their business tactics. But the absolute worst thing you can do is just accept that Imperial armies will always be better and there is nothing we can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Orks weren't bad have you seen any orks win a GT size tournament in the late 3ed or whole 4th ed ? No one really used them before this current codex, so its safe to say the sales of obliterators were down IW armies had 9 . good army. BL khorn one of the best tournament chaos army . used 3[becuase 0-1] gunline csm used them too . the oblits sold very very well . what did sell bad was for example NL or EC legion units . upgrade packs for them sold bad too[because the armies/options were weak]. The thing you have to learn is that GW is not in complete control, the consumers have alot power too. lol . of course DP only viable HQ for chaos . oblits only good hvy support . surely players for which armies those dont make sense wouldnt use them.... oh look they are in every chaos army . MM attack bikes , top anti tank unit in loyalist dex . hmm by why are they being used in salamander armies when their fluff says they dont use those ? ah yes GW forced people with rules to use it , because of melta edition . Everyone was runing 2xAC termis and AC dreads or speeders in the 4th ed . GW nerfs them no one uses those . No complete control ??? how are the sales for chaos spawn or possessed[which actualy have not bad looking models]? are people still buying them ? no they arent. If everyone wrote letters and boycotted certain products they would definitely change their business tactics let me tell you something . GW doesnt care about people who already bought armies from them .Their buissness plan is focused on new buyers , not on "vets"[for them a vet is anyone who plays longer then a year and doesnt quit]. They dont care if DA have a suck dex . since the 90s I can only remember two times when they actualy reacted to customers . First it was when they changed the synaps FAQ for nids after getting spamed by nid players around the world and second is when thorpe did the DE dex and and they errated it after a month or two in a WD because the army was not selling at all . But the absolute worst thing you can do is just accept that Imperial armies will always be better and there is nothing we can do. SM never had a bad dex . SW never had a bad dex. BA never had bad dex . chaos half the dex sucked . nids 2 dex were "balanced" . necron dex unplayable as soon as it became legal , because of the phase out rule . You think they will ever make a SM dex for example that will suck ? they wont . chaos on the other hand is a gamble depands on what the DT wants to test and what the desinger knows/likes in w40k . Or you may end up like the DAs with JJ dexs that work only when he misses something in his own rules. Go to the library or something man but do understand what I said is true nice one man . what part didnt I understand . counts as rises sale for them , because people have to buy more models , more dexs . even If the army is planed from the start as a counts as army the way lists are build in w40k forces people to buy either loyalist stuff and conver it[more model parts more boxs] or buy stuff as stand ins [again more models . a chaos player would never buy 12 juggers . A SW chaos counts as player will]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 TO Jeske: Chaos was great in 3rd edition after the second codex came out. Eldar was great in third edition with the craftworld codex. Orks weren't bad either and Nids were awesome. Their is no reason why they have to show bias to the Imperial Armies. They don't do it in Fantasy.... If you don't understand the finer points of economics I can't help you. Go to the library or something man but do understand what I said is true. Case in point are the obliterators. No one really used them before this current codex, so its safe to say the sales of obliterators were down. What did GW do, they made them one of the best options in the current codex. The thing you have to learn is that GW is not in complete control, the consumers have alot power too. If everyone wrote letters and boycotted certain products they would definitely change their business tactics. But the absolute worst thing you can do is just accept that Imperial armies will always be better and there is nothing we can do. That made me laugh. There is a Facebook group about GW price inequality in the "rest of the world" (ie, not EU or US) and how we shouldn't be paying 60-100% more than everyone else, topped by GW's new policy of European stockists not being allowed to sell outside Europe. This group has 1400 people, many of whom have written letters (yes, even of the snail mail kind) and are boycotting GW products. One member even managed to get a meeting with the head of GW Australia, who basically said "it's out of our hands, mate". I can't think of a company that would willingly ignore 1400 loyal customers except for GW. And if you think that number isn't significant, then GW's policy change makes even less sense. My point is that GW won't listen to letters and boycotts unless they are on an absolutely huge scale and go for a long period of time. Good luck organising that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLBERZERKER Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 To Jeske.... again: Dude, you are going to have learn how to form sentences. I barely understand what you are trying to say. Not trying to be mean, but it really annoys me when I have to decipher the English language. I said "orks weren't bad", I didn't say they were that great either. When I said "oblits" before I meant the ones in the first 3rd edition codex. My bad on that one. So let me get this right, the principles of "Supply and Demand" don't apply to GW? THAT MAKES ME LAUGH. I plan on informing my economics teacher tomorrow and letting him know that we need to re- write the books on that one. I totally agree about it taking more than 1400 people to succeed at this. You don't have to organize a group or anything of the sort. Just educate the average person and relay the information. People at that point will make the right choices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmimellows Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Personal attack removed, The next one will net you a warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Firstly, The Jeske has mentioned many times that English isn't his first language. I also agree that count as is good for GW, as people have to spend more money to get a nice looking army. I also agree that the current chaos codex is boring, so boring, I've been playing chaos for ages and ages, and only in the last year or so have I branched out away from chaos because the way I want to run chaos (a fluff load of plague marines) means I have 1 option for my troops, 2 options for heavy support, no fast attack (well thats not new) and 1 option for elites. Joy... GW rarely appear to listen to their consumers. you have some codices that get upgraded multiple times while others sit by the side of the road, you have cool models for rubbish units, no models for good/awesome units. Faqs that answer 40% of the questions we had and end up with us asking another few questions. Yes, if we all walked away, GW would sit up and take notice, but that will never happen. Back on topic, I would really really love a new chaos codex, that would let me play with different types of plague marines (the icon system was so, so bad), I would be happy with different HQ's granting different force organisation changes, but ultimately I want a codex that is like the space wolves, fun and fluffy with multiple options that are decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of fact Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 English isnt his first language and its better by far than some i have seen. I cant believe i am saying this but the jeske is right on this. I get wht you trying to say but we will just have to wait and see what happens with the new dex (when/if) it arrives. For now make do with or count as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Initially when all these nice shiny new codices for the BA, SW and now GK came out I was all excited for doing 'counts as' with my Night Lords, World Eaters and Thousand sons. But the more I thought about it (and I tested the BA 'dex for a NL army once) the more I came to just feel dirty for 'jumping ship'. Sure the current chaos codex is quite lacklustre when trying to represent Night Lords, and quite one dimensional for any other legion specific army (except Black Legion) but it's all the more satisfying when you do get that win against a new codex and it's all about keeping the faith until Chaos get a new codex. Then we will be laughing! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLBERZERKER Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Basically everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Some people feel dirty, some don't ... I didn't know that English wasn't his first language either. Sorry:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Basically everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Some people feel dirty, some don't ... I didn't know that English wasn't his first language either. Sorry:( Indeed, I have no problem with people doing it at all. If it keeps them in the hobby and keeps the enthusiasm going for their army then fair enough. Plus if they want to go to tournaments and stay competitive then using a more up to date codex make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimz Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 In regards to buying/not buying chaos models/codex... Eventually Chaos players will become an "untapped" segment of their playerbase, and it'll be profitable enough to create new models and a codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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