The D.A. Vinci code

[Brother iKon]

So i am reading The Da Vinci Code by dan brown (i know i know it is really old news now) and i am thinking about dark angels at the same time and it occurs to me that the inner circle are a shadowey organisation with a secret much like the priory of scion in the novel and how cool would it be if ther were little clues to "The Secret" in my army banners ecetera.

 

Which leads me to a few questions:

 

Who makes the chapter banners? probably not the brother marines maybe the chapter serfs?

 

who are these chapter serfs anyway?

i seem to remember older fluff mentions that failed aspirants may become serfs bet there must be more than that.

 

would there be sucessive generations of serfs in continuous servous to the chapter?

 

If so would the decendants (10k years later) be aware of some of the secrets past on from father to son?

 

Could an artistic Serf be responsable for producing that chapter banners and being privy to "The Truth" leave clues hidden in the images?

 

What sort of clues do you think would be there?

perhaps smaller secrets like cyphers true name and such?

[Frater Uriah]

Here are my thoughts on this topic:

 

Who makes the chapter banners? probably not the brother marines maybe the chapter serfs?

 

I very much doubt the Chapter serfs have anything to do with the Chapter banners. In most Chapters, and I don't see that the Dark Angels would be an exception, serfs are not permitted to touch the relics, particularly those of such significance as a Chapter or Company banner. Certain artificers would be able, of course, repair and maintain armour, weapons and equipment (there are only so many Techmarines, after all), but I doubt it would end well for any serf caught with some of the relics of the First Legion.

 

who are these chapter serfs anyway?

i seem to remember older fluff mentions that failed aspirants may become serfs bet there must be more than that.

 

Some are failed Aspirants, and the most fit of these seem to be given positions of greater importance, such as command of the Chapter's fleet when the Astartes are not present, as we saw in Angels of Darkness, for example. The rest are hereditary serfs, honoured by their families' long and distinguished service to the Dark Angels. Some may be acquired as the Tower of Angels makes its rounds through the galaxy, though this is only supposition on my part.

 

would there be sucessive generations of serfs in continuous servous to the chapter?

See my answer above. It makes sense that there would be.

 

If so would the decendants (10k years later) be aware of some of the secrets past on from father to son?

No serf would have even the faintest idea about the Chapter's secrets. If they did, they would make a rapid transition from serf to servitor, if they were lucky.

 

Could an artistic Serf be responsable for producing that chapter banners and being privy to "The Truth" leave clues hidden in the images?

See answers above. My thought is an emphatic 'No.'

 

The Dark Angels keep their secrets to themselves. If they require circumspect non-Astartes assistance for the more clandestine aspects of their mission, they would accomplish them with servitors (somebody has to keep the censers swinging during the rites, after all).

[shabbadoo]

The Dark Angels fluff says that the Chapter has fewer serfs than most other chapters, likely because of the more delicate nature of some of the DA's clandestine operations. They use lots of servitors instead apparently.

 

While some skilled artisan, perhaps a serf or marine might make a banner, it is mentioned in some fluff that it is the standard bearers themselves who repair the banners when they are damaged. If standard bearers have the skill to mend/restore them properly, they probably have the skill to make them in the first place.

[cernunnos]

Who makes the chapter banners? probably not the brother marines maybe the chapter serfs?

 

Well some chapters are known for their creative abilities. The Emperors Children enjoyed artistic pursuits if I am recalling the Horus Heresy series correctly whilst the Blood Angels are also well known for their artistic talents. There appears to be nothing preventing a marine having these skills. Whilst the Dark Angels aren’t known for their art they do seem to revere relics and symbols so it would seem feasible that certain Dark Angels have this role. Given the reverence for relics and symbols it would seem fitting to me that the skills to make the banners lies within the ranks of the Chapters Chaplains.

 

Of course marines could be responsible for the design and the actual work would be produced by skilled serfs. This way the serfs would not need to understand the significance of their work.

 

A darker thought would be that artisans are brought in, fully informed about what they are doing, and then killed once their work is complete.

 

 

who are these chapter serfs anyway?

 

Probably mostly failed aspirants and their descendants (who are generally simple warriors and would need retraining) with a few recruited specialists mixed in. I see them as having their own insular society complete with its own power hierarchies and economy. They are united however in their service to their Astartes masters which borders on religious worship.

 

 

would there be sucessive generations of serfs in continuous servous to the chapter?

 

I think so. As many failed aspirants die in the process I would see the percentage of the serfs made up of failed aspirants being particularly low. The majority would be their descendants.

 

 

If so would the decendants (10k years later) be aware of some of the secrets past on from father to son?

 

I don’t think so. The Dark Angels keep things very close to their chests. Any serf that was exposed to truths they are not meant to hear may be disappeared.

 

 

Could an artistic Serf be responsable for producing that chapter banners and being privy to "The Truth" leave clues hidden in the images?

 

Well I doubt the Dark Angels would leave clues that could be decoded. The symbols and images would have meaning to the Dark Angels, but I imagine they would only be understood if you knew the history. I think of it as a cipher and a key, with the chapter imagery being the cipher and the knowledge of the chapters history being the key. As a battle brother progresses up the ranks more of the cipher is decoded bringing more meaning. This way the chapter imagery is only compromised if the history is already known.

[Frater Uriah]

A darker thought would be that artisans are brought in, fully informed about what they are doing, and then killed once their work is complete.

 

What an excellent thought.... :lol:

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Somehow I don't envision descendants of serfs.. An aloof and secretive chapter as DA is unlikely to let their serfs have a family in the first place, plus it weird that a space-bourne chapter accommodate place for wife and kids in the Rock. IMHO if you fail as a scout, you become a serf, you you fail as a serf you become a servitor.. and then there's the watchers in the dark.

[EPK]

I agree with Chaplain Lucifer and what has been said in relation to his comments. I believe I have read that the Salamander's actually allow for their marines to have families and mingle with the populace. I could see a chapter like definitely having a long line of family serfs. I could even see it happening in chapters like the Ultras, who are very much a part of society. The Dark Angels however are much too cloistered to permit such a thing.

 

I also like Cernunnos darker thought, but I don't think we would actively bring death to Imperial civilians. It's one thing to kill them because they stumbled upon some information they should not have. It is a completely different ball game to bring them in with the intentions of killing them all along. The latter reeks of Chaos.

[Skanwy]

The Watchers in the Dark do appear to be privy to the innermost secrets of the Dark Angels. Maybe the Watchers are the ones handling the Relics and Banners. While the more mundane stuff of repairing tanks and task of sewing the famous robes going to serfs and servitors.

[Frater Uriah]

Somehow I don't envision descendants of serfs.. An aloof and secretive chapter as DA is unlikely to let their serfs have a family in the first place, plus it weird that a space-bourne chapter accommodate place for wife and kids in the Rock. IMHO if you fail as a scout, you become a serf, you you fail as a serf you become a servitor.. and then there's the watchers in the dark.

I've actually spent some time thinking about this today, because work is slow. I don't think that the idea of the DA having hereditary serfs would be that big of a stretch. While they would obviously have a marked preference for servitors for a number of requirements, I think that having an ancillary staff that is not exclusively male is not that great of a stretch on the Rock. In the medieval period, towns grew up around monasteries, providing a variety of support to the brothers within, and were oftentimes overseen and even governed by the monks, without strictly speaking being involved in the monks' day-to-day affairs. We don't know how big, exactly the Rock is, except that it is larger than all but the most extraordinarily large Space Hulks. This gives the Chapter a lot of room to play around with, to include living quarters for the Battle-Brothers, the staff, the Chapter Serfs, as well as work areas, training ranges, dining facilities, gunnery bays, chapels, maneuver training areas, manufactora, armories, docking facilities and hangars, dungeons, and all variety of spaces in between. The Dark Angels are not hurting for space on their Fortress Monastery. As long as the serfs are kept out of the areas reserved for Battle-Brothers only, all should be well with them. One could imagine that the serfs don't let themselves get too curious about what the 1000 giant super-humans do with their free time: the Dark Angels would have likely made some harsh examples to ensure that.

 

In my fancy of fancies, sometimes I like to imagine that the Rock is quite large: it was a mountain, after all, when it was still on Caliban. For all we know, it could be as big as Sicily, blasted off the Earth and fitted with warp drives and extremely heavy armament. While it is likely nowhere near that large, there is probably room to spare and keep the Dark Angels themselves comfortably sequestered away from the rest of the denizens of the Rock.

[EPK]

Heh, Frater Uriah comments have swayed me...

 

Given the long life of an Astartes (if he does not die in battle) compared to an unaugmented human, perhaps it would make sense that one would go through a couple generations of serfs and that it would be quite an honor for an aged serf to offer up their son or daughter to continue to serve the Chapter or more specifically that Dark Angel, in his place.

 

But perhaps not, I'm torn. It at least makes sense for other Chapters.

[Cactus]

Er, has anybody here studied biology? It's well established that failed aspirants become serfs, and that only males are selected as potential recruits. I doubt there are any women on the Rock unless some survived from Caliban and their line has continued for 10,000 years. Even that seems like a bit of a stretch. It does tie in with the Da Vinci Code quite well though.

 

The idea that the Dark Angels' banners contain cryptic references to the Fall of Caliban is a good one, and is supported by the current codex where it describes the increasing levels of knowledge and how these are imparted gradually by analogies taught to all battle-brothers. I think Cernnunos has it spot on that you'd need to be aware of the chapter's history to interpret the full meaning.

[EPK]

Er, has anybody here studied biology? It's well established that failed aspirants become serfs, and that only males are selected as potential recruits. I doubt there are any women on the Rock unless some survived from Caliban and their line has continued for 10,000 years. Even that seems like a bit of a stretch. It does tie in with the Da Vinci Code quite well though.

 

The idea that the Dark Angels' banners contain cryptic references to the Fall of Caliban is a good one, and is supported by the current codex where it describes the increasing levels of knowledge and how these are imparted gradually by analogies taught to all battle-brothers. I think Cernnunos has it spot on that you'd need to be aware of the chapter's history to interpret the full meaning.

 

Biology? What's that? Girls and boys are different, heh?

 

Seriously though it's also established that many failed aspirants simply die. Knowing that all failed aspirants become serfs is not the same as saying all serfs are failed aspirants. We also know that Astartes that use recruitment worlds will revisit time after time for new recruits, is there any fluff that says the local population might not all become somewhat attacked to the Dark Angels and volunteer their service?

 

EDIT: This topic made me check here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter_Serf

 

Two key phrases stick out in that topic, "hereditary servants" and "generally descended from individuals selected as potential recruits to the Chapter". So, a failed aspirant may in fact go on to sire children and his offspring - yes he could have a female - may or may not become chapter serfs as well and so on down throughout time.

 

Two sources are cited but not specially quoted in the text.

[Frater Uriah]

EPK, thanks. You and your Lexicanum research have clarified my thoughts about hereditary serfs in the Dark Angels. :blush:

 

I'm not necessarily saying we do have more of them than other Chapters, but I would suspect they are not uncommon. Servitors can only do so much. That said, I am also fairly certain that the Dark Angels themselves would ensure their serfs are very well insulated from "Chapter Business."

[Cactus]

Seriously though it's also established that many failed aspirants simply die.

I don't dispute that. I should have said "many/some failed aspirants..."

 

Knowing that all failed aspirants become serfs is not the same as saying all serfs are failed aspirants. We also know that Astartes that use recruitment worlds will revisit time after time for new recruits, is there any fluff that says the local population might not all become somewhat attacked to the Dark Angels and volunteer their service?

 

EDIT: This topic made me check here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter_Serf

 

Two key phrases stick out in that topic, "hereditary servants" and "generally descended from individuals selected as potential recruits to the Chapter". So, a failed aspirant may in fact go on to sire children and his offspring - yes he could have a female - may or may not become chapter serfs as well and so on down throughout time.

 

Two sources are cited but not specially quoted in the text.

I can readily believe that planet-based chapters attract serfs from the local population, especially the Space Wolves (one of the two sources cited) who are one of the more 'human' chapters, or Ultramarines whose aristocratic families are often aware of their relatives' exploits with the chapter*. It doesn't seem appropriate for the Dark Angels. Which isn't to say that it can't happen with the Dark Angels, it just doesn't happen with my Dark Angels. :)

 

It may be significant that until I read The Purging of Kadillus I hadn't considered the Dark Angels recruiting from the same location for more than a few generations, whereas that book says

we've been recruiting from Piscina V for 6,000 years

. Maybe we do have closer links with planetary populations than I'd previously thought.

 

*I think I read this recently but I can't recall where.

[Brother iKon]

serfs are not permitted to touch the relics, particularly those of such significance as a Chapter or Company banner. Certain artificers would be able, of course, repair and maintain armour, weapons and equipment .

 

Are you saying that Artificers are not serfs?

 

I would think that space marines have more on thier plate that taking needle point clases and art composition lessons in order to produce a chapter banner.(I know some chapter may prize art and therfore persue these activities, in the original space marine novels the Imperial fists used ti carve the finger bones of previous brothers)

 

I would think that there is a special field of artificers that makes banners and paints vehicles (other than the simple paint a servitor can achieve)

 

I am thinking that there may be chapter serfs serving the chapter in the current time that are decended from the original servants of the order that were present for the destruction of Caliban.

although these human servants of the chapter would have to have been members of the fleet that was returning to Caliban for the great crusade. so probably no familys.

 

when i say clues hidden in the banners I am not thinking of anything as obvous as an inscrition that when read in the mirros says "half the dark angels turned to chaos and thats why thier world blew up" or anything like that more like a painted fresco in the great dining hall that has the Lion and Luthor side by side but if you look closely the is a dagger behind the lions back that could be in Luthors hand.

or a list of battles against chaos that lists an anagram of Caliban

[Frater Uriah]

serfs are not permitted to touch the relics, particularly those of such significance as a Chapter or Company banner. Certain artificers would be able, of course, repair and maintain armour, weapons and equipment .

 

Are you saying that Artificers are not serfs?

 

I would think that space marines have more on thier plate that taking needle point clases and art composition lessons in order to produce a chapter banner.(I know some chapter may prize art and therfore persue these activities, in the original space marine novels the Imperial fists used ti carve the finger bones of previous brothers)

 

I would think that there is a special field of artificers that makes banners and paints vehicles (other than the simple paint a servitor can achieve)

 

I am thinking that there may be chapter serfs serving the chapter in the current time that are decended from the original servants of the order that were present for the destruction of Caliban.

although these human servants of the chapter would have to have been members of the fleet that was returning to Caliban for the great crusade. so probably no familys.

 

when i say clues hidden in the banners I am not thinking of anything as obvous as an inscrition that when read in the mirros says "half the dark angels turned to chaos and thats why thier world blew up" or anything like that more like a painted fresco in the great dining hall that has the Lion and Luthor side by side but if you look closely the is a dagger behind the lions back that could be in Luthors hand.

or a list of battles against chaos that lists an anagram of Caliban

Not in the least. But I am saying that any Chapter serf caught with his mitts on the Cup of Malediction is in for a bad time of it. There's a difference between maintenance of wargear and actually maintaining the relics of the Chapter, by dint of propriety.

 

Actually, nearly all Chapters prize any manner of outlets beyond simply warfare in their glorification of Primarch and Emperor. These would range from the weaving and maintenance of banners, illuminated manuscripts, sculpture, refinement of doctrine, even perhaps brewing. Once again referring to the monasteries of the middle ages, the brothers in each cloister had a lot more to do than simply praying, and the Dark Angels, being exemplars of monasticism, would not be any different. The idea that Space Marines do nothing but fight and prepare to fight is, I think, terribly inappropriate and very flat. I think that any Dark Angel would be esteemed and honoured to be able to create a work of art that his Battle-Brothers could take into battle and glorify, such as a mural on a Land Raider or a banner to rally the brothers to their commander; indeed, I would sincerely doubt that the Dark Angels would even permit a serf such an honour. It is simply not their place.

 

And I agree with Cactus regarding his imput from The Purging of Kadillus: it makes sense that the Chapter would recruit both Aspirants and serfs from the systems they visit (perhaps, in that case, Aspirants from Piscina V and serfs from the more civilised Piscina IV). The Dark Angels would have relatively close ties to the populations of such worlds: we have to leave Fortresses of Redemption all over the place for some reason. :P

 

Any number of works of art created by the Dark Angels will likely have hints regarding the nature of the Chapter contained therein (and I like your example of Luther holding the dagger behind his back as he stands behind the Lion, or other such symbolism, a la Da Vinci's The Last Supper); however, I also think that the Battle-Brothers not inducted into the Inner Circle would have no idea what such symbols represent, themselves. After all, how many people understand every nuance of symbolism represented in art and heraldry amongst the general population, or even amongst the majority of experts in the field? The only member of all the Unforgiven who could be expected to understand what it all refers to would be the Supreme Grand Master, and he himself is an extraordinary individual.

[EPK]

And I agree with Cactus regarding his imput from The Purging of Kadillus: it makes sense that the Chapter would recruit both Aspirants and serfs from the systems they visit (perhaps, in that case, Aspirants from Piscina V and serfs from the more civilised Piscina IV). The Dark Angels would have relatively close ties to the populations of such worlds: we have to leave Fortresses of Redemption all over the place for some reason. :)

 

I agree here as well. I feel like their is precedence in GW/BL literature to support that the human population for the most part looks up to Space Marines as heros, sometimes lords and even some other times with an intrigue closing on gods. More feral planets, for instance the Plains World, could surely have a population which praises them and lauds over them when they come - and if they actually have a base established there, the inhabits would probably want to be close to them. I think the question is, how would the Dark Angels deal with this reaction? They are no poster boys of the Imperium like the Ultras, I'm not quite sure they would welcome such praise and over time, such a response would surely have inhabitants, at least those more feral, truly seeing them as angelic figures of a dark and menacing demeanor.

 

Of course, and I read a short story recently that says as much, many humans on planets that the marines have no interest in, come to see them as simply legends. The universe so vast, I venture to guess the majority of the it's inhabitants have had zero interaction with a Space Marine in their short little human life spans. Yet when they actually come face to face with a marine in action, they realize they are killers and the Emperor's weapons first above all else.

 

And if they do come to worship, really worship a chapter, is it not that chapters duty to then purge such heretics from the Imperium? And those that are not purged? Perhaps they will simply force them into serfdom.

[Frater Uriah]

And if they do come to worship, really worship a chapter, is it not that chapters duty to then purge such heretics from the Imperium? And those that are not purged? Perhaps they will simply force them into serfdom.

An interesting premise. I would venture that the Dark Angels would likely err on the side of purging the heretics, rather than forcing them into servitude. Seeing that they purged their own homeworld from existence after the Horus Heresy, I doubt any culture that they encounter that worships them as false gods would fare any better. The DA do not seem to be at odds with levelling Exterminatus on populations deemed anathema, such as the Techno-recidivists of Faze V.