Dark Angels Second Founding

[Mattias]

Hi All,

In the Dark Angels codex it states the following;

"When the Space Marine Legions were split into Chapters after the Horus Heresy, it is written in the few surviving histories that the Dark Angels Legion sired at least three new Chapters. These are the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Vengeance and the Angels of Redemption, but more of these so-called 'Successors' are said to exist. Certainly more were created than are recorded, and all of these Chapters are extant to this day."

I know that in the past DIY Second Founding Chapters have been frowned upon, however I was wondering whether it has become more acceptable for Dark Angels successors given the above quote?

The reason I ask is that I was considering starting a project to write an IA for a Second Founding Dark Angels successor, I was thinking of calling them 'Angels of Deliverance' and using the below colour scheme in order to keep consistent with the existing Second Founding chapters, could this work or am I likely to be called up on the second founding part?

[Ishida]

You could do it, but do you really gain anything from it? There are two dozen other Foundings to choose from... what's wrong with the Third, Seventh, or Fifteenth?

[Ferrata]

When the Space Marine Legions were split into Chapters after the Horus Heresy, it is written in the few surviving histories that the Dark Angels Legion sired at least three new Chapters. These are the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Vengeance and the Angels of Redemption, but more of these so-called 'Successors' are said to exist. Certainly more were created than are recorded, and all of these Chapters are extant to this day.

Successors could also indicate later foundings - so it isn't a clear cut opportunity. Like Ishida said, is there anything to gain by this chapter being a second founder?

[Brother Tyler]

Actually, I think that the verbiage is clear that there may have been more 2nd Founding Successors of the 1st Legion than are officially known (I personally consider the Angels of Vigilance to be such).

 

You will be called on it if you decide to do it, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it if that's what you want to do. There are valid points for not doing it, but none of those points is sufficient to counter the facts that the official material from GW specifically allows for it and you can do whatever you please with your army.

 

All that said, I suggest that you devote sufficient effort to explaining how such a Chapter may have been created in the 2nd Founding and not be known as such to the other Chapters created in that Founding (all four of them, which includes the Dark Angels Chapter). The Unforgiven are a group of Chapters whose collective memory stretches back to the dark days of the Horus Heresy, so there would have to be a solid reason a brother Chapter created at the same time to be unknown. The easy answer would be that the Chapter no longer exists, having been lost at some point after their creation (perhaps lost en toto, perhaps absorbed into one of the other Unforgiven Chapters).

[Mattias]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

 

I take your point about re-evaluating my reasons for wanting to make the chapter from the second founding and will have to consider what this adds to the chapter as opposed to a later founding.

 

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on why I should avoid taking this road, what problems does it pose to making a successful DIY?

 

Brother Tyler I also find it interesting that your interpretation of the passage is that the the Unforgiven are unaware of the additional successors as I had read it to mean that there are no official Imperial records of the additional successors origins but that their existence and origins were known to the Unforgiven.

 

As the Unforgiven must have been aware of their creation and the passage states that they are still extant then it would seem strange to me if the Unforgiven had lost their knowledge of them.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

First, I'm assuming you've read the guide, this is probably explained better there, but here goes:

 

First, you would lose the support of the Liber, as we feel that the Second Founding has been locked down in the fluff, though we would help you with the rest of the chapter.

Also, what would it add to your chapter? Why do they need to be Second Founding? What's wrong with the Third, or Ninth, or Eighteenth?

[Leonaides]

the problem with using 2nd founding is that it is an overused one, usually done badly and tends to signal an imminent we are the uberest chapterz... So any use of it tends to put peoples hackles up straight away. Coming up with a convincing reason why yr 2nd founding chapter is unknown in official fluff is hard work- much harder than using another one. But if you think you can do it, go for it.

[Balthamal]

From what I've read on the various DIY Chapters, a lot of people are tending to aim at the Second Founding because of several reasons. Those being:

 

Age - It's understandable that some people don't want to have a brand spanking new, still wet behind the ears chapter waging war in M41. The appeal to have a rich history many thousands of years old can be a strong one and it's unlikely anyone would argue against that. A point to remember about this though, is the fact the 2nd founding took place in early M31. By 300.M33 or so, there had been a further 9 foundings. That's plenty of scope to include a chapter with many millennium of history. For example its generally believed the 8th founding occurred to replenish losses incurred during the 3rd Black Crusade.

 

Super Marines - Can't really think of an appropriate term for this point so I'll leave it as Super Marines. To some, the fact that their Chapter would be part of the 2nd founding, meaning that it would be founded by marines who fought in the Great Crusade and the Heresy, who knew the Primarch personally even, makes them so much more uber than those in the latter day. Is that true? Unlikely. What it does raise is the ugly spectre of awesome that is roundly disliked on these pages. There are some exceptions to this though in that some 2nd founding chapters would have more flavor because of that. For example the Dark Angels successors would be burning with guilt and shame and the desire to hunt down the Fallen, the Iron Hands would generally be in despair over the death of their Primarch etc.

 

Best advice I can give really would be to take a browse through the DA Codex (I'm assuming its as DA you want to play) and read up on the snippets of information about the 2nd Founding Successor Chapters. Also try and dig up some information on them from other places such as B&C, Lexcanicum GW etc. There's been precious little released about this over the years so it's altogether possible you could take one of these and make a Chapter if it's really the 2nd Founding you're shooting for.

 

If you want to stick to you're very own Chapter though there's plenty of opportunity in later foundings that won't incur quite the backlash that the 2nd always seems to

[Ishida]

Balthamal pretty much covered all the points, and the Guides in the Librarium also cover this idea in some depth.

 

For my own Chapter, I chose the Seventh Founding. Because, A) near as I can tell, none of the Chapters ever created by GW came from this Founding; B) it was far enough "back in time" to have their homeworld located "deeper" inside the Imperium; C) I wanted to avoid the "red flags" of the 1st, 2nd, 13th, 21st, and 26th Foundings; and D) I wanted to be a White Scar's successor, but not a direct clone, I figured the White Scar's don't get used much for Foundings so any successors would be from earlier foundings and having a long history would allow them to go their own way in terms of style, organization, and what-have-you.

[Ferrata]

I think some of you are making us (Liber) come across as quite cruel and unaccepting... well done :(

 

No, being serious, we aren't that bad. The problem is that 2nd Founding is often used to replace character and theme (C&T) - which it isn't. It can be used to aid C&T but it is not a replacement. However, you have to spend so long discussing the 2nd Founding that it is difficult to get the rest of the chapter in. I've fluffed out the Black Guard (Raven Guard 2nd Founders) and the first part of their origins is all about the Raven Guard Legion. Our (Liber) disdain towards the 2nd Founding is more akin to a guy telling you not to walk through the mountains because there are bears - you might survive and come out a better person, but there are a lot of skeletons there for a reason :)