IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 How best to do it? My son's after collecting a DE army, and bought the codex, and borrowed some old DE minis at the games club last night to give me a game. I figured I'd try out my supposedly competitive 1750 army list, and I helped him put together a quick, reasonably competitive-looking (if low on armour) list based on the minis available (haemonculus + incubi in a Raider w. Dark Lance & flickerfield; Lelith + wyches in a Raider w. Dark Lance & flickerfield; Ravager; Talos w. splinter cannon; 5 x 10 warriors w. 1 Dark Lance; 9 x Reaver jetbikes w. 3 Caltrops & 3 Heat Lance). Now, all right, we called it a draw by the end of Turn 4 (Capture & Control; neither of us likely to get near the other's objective any time soon; short of time to play the rest of hte game). It was easy enough for me to wipe out his vehicles (eventually) with missile spam and the occasional long-range multimelta shot, despite his uncanny ability to make cover & invulnerable saves with them. But it was staggeringly easy for him to wipe out my forces too, including terminators. One pass over the termies with the jetbikes, though, and 3 of one squad were dead (18 wounds = 3 failed armour saves), and he still had a 3+ cover save on the jetbikes! The incubi took the last 2 termies out in CC before the thunder hammers got a chance to strike back, though I managed to tie them up with a Dread they couldn't hurt. One splinter cannon on the Talos put out enough poison dakka to smash any power armour marines out in the open. Seems like RW would fare even worse against them (no way to outrange the jetbikes, and even more vulnerability to being torrented to death with poisoned shooting). Any suggestions? Or do I just borrow a DE army to take to the tourney next month instead of my DA?!? :lol: And, I know that vehicles would help infantry survivability... but even that hastily put-together army had 8 Dark Lances at 1750 points. It would seem to be pretty easy to get 12+ at that points level. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Please post what you are running. I would never suggest tailoring your army according to what one opponent is running, unless you anticipate running into DE a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Kovash, I'm not planning to tailor my list specifically to fight DE, just wondering if anyone's come up with viable tactics, or thinks the list needs tweaking to take account of the way DE have changed the game. That was my first battle against the new DE codex, so I'm inexperienced against it. I'm running the 2nd list from this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=220388 So, this: Belial w LCs (130) Deathwing squad w TH/SS/Apoth, CML/TH/SS, TH/SS, TH/SS x2 (265) Deathwing squad w CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x4 (235) Tac squad, 5-man, flamer, twin-las razorback, sb (180) Tac squad, 10-man, flamer, missile launcher, rhino, sb (220) Venerable Dread, twin-linked autocannon, DCCW/HF (150) Venerable Dread, twin-linked autocannon, missile launcher (155) Ravenwing support: typhoon/mm (75) Ravenwing support: typhoon/mm (75) Ravenwing support: typhoon/mm (75) Predator: HB/AC/HB (95) Predator: HB/AC/HB (95) 1750 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The first thing i would suggest is an alteration in tactics. If i'm right in my assumption that few, if any, Dark Eldar units have better than a 5+ save (except Incubi) then i'd ditch the Deathwing Assault Squad and take another Deathwing Tactical Squad instead. Ditch the Predators and get some full strength Tactical Squads in Drop Pods. We're not known as the Angels of Death for nothing, take advantage of Deep Striking Terminators with Storm Bolters (plus heavy weapon of choice) and Deep Striking Drop Pods full of angry Astartes to disrupt his plans. If you can, get some twin linked Autocannon arms for your Dreadnoughts and use them to neutralise his skimmers. Anything with an AV of greater than 12 is pretty much pointless when facing Dark Eldar because of their Lances and Blasters and they're always going to be faster than you in close combat so don't worry about using Power Fists on your Terminators. Strike hard and strike fast, neutralise his mobility and consider Heavy Flamers in your army. I'm guessing Jetbikes have a 4+ armour save, Heavy Flamers are AP4 which will ignore their armour save AND it ignores cover saves so those turbo boosting Jetbikes won't get their precious 3+ COVER save. Good hunting brother, hope this helps. Just re-read your army list, didn't realise you already had twin linked Autocannons on your Dreadnoughts. Another slightly risky choice because of it's low armour is the Whirlwind but you can happily hide it behind cover and drop a S5 AP4 large blast or a S4 AP5 no cover save large blast on them each turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I've yet to play DE myself, or read properly through the codex, but from what I've read it seems as though they'll give us a hard game. They can put out a huge volume of poisoned anti-infantry firepower, and volume of fire is always foot terminators biggest threat. I guess it's just a question of target priority - shoot the Raiders, Venoms, Reavers, Hellions etc first to deny them mobility, and make it harder to bring their anti-infantry guns to bear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I've yet to play DE myself, or read properly through the codex, but from what I've read it seems as though they'll give us a hard game. They can put out a huge volume of poisoned anti-infantry firepower, and volume of fire is always foot terminators biggest threat. I guess it's just a question of target priority - shoot the Raiders, Venoms, Reavers, Hellions etc first to deny them mobility, and make it harder to bring their anti-infantry guns to bear. Hence my comments about Deep Strike. Sure two Drop Pods and two squads of Deathwing Terminators may result in a piecemeal deployment with one unit arriving per turn, but on those occasions you get all four units arriving within a turn or two you've got a Dark Eldar players worst nightmare (according to my brother); his lightly armoured warriors being caught between 30 angry Astartes and an advancing gunline of Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders. Their mobility allows them to dictate which fights happen and where. What you need to do is deny them that advantage. Make THEM react to YOUR plan, make sure you dictate what fights happen, and where. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Deathwing squad w TH/SS/Apoth, CML/TH/SS, TH/SS, TH/SS x2 (265) Deathwing squad w CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x4 (235) Tac squad, 5-man, flamer, twin-las razorback, sb (180) Tac squad, 10-man, flamer, missile launcher, rhino, sb (220) Venerable Dread, twin-linked autocannon, DCCW/HF (150) Venerable Dread, twin-linked autocannon, missile launcher (155) Ravenwing support: typhoon/mm (75) Ravenwing support: typhoon/mm (75) Ravenwing support: typhoon/mm (75) Predator: HB/AC/HB (95) Predator: HB/AC/HB (95) DE should be fairly good at taking out armour... although they have trouble with excessive amounts... like guard... they also like to nibble elite units. DAs however don't really do mass spam and the number of poisoned and ap2 (or better) weapons really hurt deathwing (unless you have SS on most of the guys) and ravenwing. Typhoons are a good choice and the mm auto glances most things so it isn't bad but I might be tempted to take more shots for later in the game if killing infantry is the problem... my favourite gift for the DE (and almost anyone) is the Deathstorm drop pod with missiles... assault cannon isn't needed! They are not as good if the DE deploy off the board which they often will if going second and become less effective once the DE have spread out. However for less than the cost of a whirlwind the amount of disruption these things CAN cause is worth the risk. In my 2,000pt Deathwing army I have 2 (they help even the numbers out) and they have even done serious damage to MEQ armies now and again. However I don't know how you guys feel about FW. If you put some of the typhoons into squadrons a land speeder with a heavy flamer may be worth it... for clearing them out of the bush later in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 As you may know, my GF is getting into 40k with DE so... maybe I can help a bit <_< Its quite frustrating the first time you get a round of poisoned shots... untill you remember that normaly you get hit anyways with a 4+ so, thats no big deal. As for the amount of shooting... yep, they do have a pain zone at 60 cm I think it is.. definately at 45. But at that range, its usually because they are about to assault so...you're in for some pain anyways. Ideas: - Assault cannons are MUCH better than automatic cannons: double the shots, half the distance, but rending and still causes instant death to the eldar - Flamers are your friends. My GF won't play with me if I carry any in my list haha I'd suggest going for 2 x 3 bikes double flamer for...260 points? They are going to wreck any squad they touch... and its a good suggestion for any build that wants to have swarm removal capability - Forget about dark lances and the like. Even with a glancing shot, they wont shoot the next round...focus the Typhoons on them and if possible at a 30-60 cm range (yes, even with missiles) - I think those 400 points in greenwing are more of a problem than an option. Everybody today has loads of suppresive (S7+) fire to block/immo AV11-12 vehicles. Not taking them puts those weapons to un-efficiency - Keep in mind DE will get to CC most of the times. Unless you face some experienced player that has a list of "sit and shoot and countercharge", most will be assault oriented... that means portal webway and many footslogging troops. Just remember that they can enter, move, shoot and assault... so its 45 cm of threat bubble. If he has an haemunculi that carries the portal... shoot/stop his vehicle ASAP! Hope it helps! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks for the suggestions, all. Tannhausen, yeah, I have sometimes thought the tac squads a liability, but in this case, the two AV11 hulls draw some fire from the Typhoons. You're quite right that everyone brings mass S7-8 fire these days to deal with transports, but all that fire will be sent at my typhoons if I don't have stuff like a twin-linked lascannon razorback (which a lot of people fear more than a Typhoon, quite wrongly, I think, because of the high strength) in the backfield and a rhino with a flamer squad trundling towards the enemy... I've thought about a dualwing list (at 1750 I can just squeeze in Belial, Sammael, 3 DW squads, 2 RW squads with attack bike, 3 speeders and a whirlwind) but I fear that it has so much less armour as to no longer offer saturation, and that RW are even more vulnerable to DE than termies or tac marines are (T5 is no help vs. poison, and RW need to be within 24" to do anything useful). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you like your build, I wouldn't change it. After all, its a matter of enjoying what you deploy :ph34r: However, you make accurate reflections on some issues... and "forget" some (IMO). Depends on your local area, but... - LS are quite "forgotten" about ... unless its a kill points mission. People tend to focus on other parts of the army because they usually (wrongly) think that 1 LS won't put out so much damage. In my recent experience, the 3 Typhoon/MM are GOLDEN. They have an amazing range and if it gets upclose and personal, usually you can either simply move flat out or blow up the transports. - As for the bikes durability... in certain games, its more about how much pain they can put out the turn they arrive from the flank and and how it affects both deployment and the actual game. I've played quite resiliant armies (nids for example) who will focus on only one short edge of the table in order to minize the effect of the bikes (since 33% of the times, they'll come in from the wron side). - A hidden WW is probably a good option for swarm removal. Also, bear in mind that DE have LD 8... meaning that its not that hard to make them run away with a -1 from barrage shots - A personal preference: 35 points for a rhino and 5 points for the flamer...and 9 other guys with a ML... its quite an expensive flamer bunker, specially if its a normal and not heavy flamer. At 1750, I'd go something like Belial - 130 DW CML/CF/Command squad - 295 DW CML/CF squad - 240 DW CML/CF squad - 240 2 x 3 biker double flamer + AB MM - 360 3 x 1 LS Typhoon/MM - 225 Thats 1490 points...so 260 to go :P I'd run away from 5 tacticals, since they are quite expensive and simply don't put out enough fire or assault power to really be a threat. And you certainly can't count on those 100ish points holding an objective is the opponent devotes even one mid-power CC unit. From there, you either go the easy way ( 2 x vindicator), which will play into many builds game... or go for more original options. [Thinking...] Seeing your list, maybe 2 x 5 marines+flamer that ALWAYS go by reserves... so the turn they come in, they can clean up you back yard a bit. How big is your tournament? Do you expect many non PA? For example, the one last saturday was 42 people strong, with 8 SW, 5 BA, 3 IG, 4 Orks and 4 Nids... and only 1 DE. If you taylor your list for swarm removal, you'll struggle vs PA and equivalents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Oh, it's pretty much guaranteed that I will take the 3 x TML/MM speeders. :ph34r: I know what you mean about the bikes, and I've certainly had success with them, but I find unless I have a minimum of 3 x 3-man bike units, plus 3 x MM attack bike, there's no guarantee they won't all just miss / fail to penetrate / fail to do decent damage, on the turn they show up. Most of the time they work fine; occasionally they work wonderfully; sometimes they all wiff! Here's what I was thinking of, though I would contemplate dropping a DW squad for another RW squad, which might get me more goodies elsewhere: Belial w LCs (130) Sammael in Speeder (205) DW squad w TH/SS/Apoth, CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x3 (265) DW squad w CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x4 (235) DW squad w CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x4 (235) RAS: 3-man, 2 flamer, MMAB (180) RAS: 3-man, 2 melta, MMAB (190) RSS: typhoon/mm (75) RSS: typhoon/mm (75) RSS: typhoon/mm (75) Whirlwind (85) 1750 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yeah, actually, this is tempting -- it has a *lot* of anti-horde, and just about enough anti-vehicle, I think: Belial w LCs (130) Sammael in Speeder (205) DW squad w TH/SS/Apoth, CML/TH/SS, TH/SS/banner, TH/SS x2 (290) DW squad w CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x4 (235) RAS: 3-man, 2 plasma, apoth, MMAB (215) RAS: 3-man, 2 flamer, MMAB (180) RAS: 3-man, 2 flamer, MMAB (180) RSS: typhoon/mm (75) RSS: typhoon/mm (75) RSS: typhoon/mm (75) Whirlwind, sb (90) 1750 That's up to 10 missile shots and 6 multimelta shots per turn. :ph34r: Should ace most transports, and I have enough flamers, frag missiles, and Whirlwind blasts to make a mess of infantry too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thats my 2k list except for 1 RW double melta squad +AB and 2 CF. I'd STRONGLY suggest taking sammy in the bike: no need for more AV, his shooting is mainly antifantry or rear armour hunting and he's a bit limited tactically. I tried him... and ended up prefering the bike for a simple reason: you can throw Sammy with his 5 attacks at ini 5 with PW into an infantry squad AND his twin linked plasma cannon is quite useful. You better kick a$$ on your next game... when is it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Heh! Great minds, and all that. :) Having tried both, I think I like Sammy better on the speeder. Most games he's giving me a reliable 7 anti-infantry hits every turn -- like a Predator but more mobile. The jetbike version rarely performs as well for me -- most of the time he either doesn't do a lot anyway, or he gets shot down by massed bolter fire. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Mark my words the next time you need to dislodge and objective in turn 5...and those 7 wounds are not enough :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
krewl Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 One minor detail, the plasma cannon is not twin linked though, his speeder weapons are (heavy bolter/Assault cannon). Looks like my 1750 list a bit but mine is terminator heavy a bit more; Bels with claws Sammy on jetbike DW squad, 5 x TH&SS, CML, banner & apothecary DW squad, 2 x TH&SS, CML, Chainfist, powerfist guy, sarge DW squad, 2 x TH&SS, CML, powerfist guy, sarge DW squad, 2 x TH&SS, CML, powerfist guy, sarge RAS 2 x meltagun on 3 bikes, MM attack bike. LS tornado, MM LS tornado, MM LS tornado, MM also 1750. A bit less melta and multimelta action, but more missile launchers. (As I find you hardly encounter AV13 and 14 in high numbers, and for AV12 and lower those NL launchers with their longer reach are great.) I also prefer the jetbike, and certainly against Dark Eldar we are talking several dark lances making AV14 into AV12... thats a fast way to lose over 200 points I like the jetbike sammy cause he can do anything, in short he's flexible. Just not a powerhouse who kills all on his own, so he needs support on stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Oh, and the tourney is at the end of next month -- the UK Grand Tournament at the Maelstrom Games "Eye of the Storm" site. It'll be my second ever tournament... I think there's around 40 players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 his speeder weapons are (heavy bolter/Assault cannon). Which are twin-linked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2652909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think all Sammy's weapons are TL...dont make me go and get my codex ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2653248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Plasma cannon isn't ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2653254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Oh, and the tourney is at the end of next month -- the UK Grand Tournament at the Maelstrom Games "Eye of the Storm" site. It'll be my second ever tournament... I think there's around 40 players. Good luck - I wanted to enter that, but left it too late. Going to Throne of Skulls instead ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2653808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks, Bartali. I managed to get in on the reserve list. Good luck with Throne of Skulls! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221981-dealing-with-dark-eldar/#findComment-2653904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.