Murderous Hurricane Question

[Hear da Lamentation]

I know this counts as a shooting attack, but unlike Living lightning, it does not have a profile (at least not in the same way in the description.)

 

My question is .... for the 3d6 Str3 wounds ... do I need to hit? if so, I assume it is 1 roll to hit - all or nothing.

(I know that even if you miss, the difficult/dangerous ground test still applies ... as per faq)

 

One other clearly daft question I should know the answer to by now ... but it has never come up. Frag/Krak grenades. If my GH are in combat with .. say a Dread and therefore cannot hit him with their normal Str4 attacks .... can they have 1 attack per round with the grenades using str8?

I assume you cannot do this with meltabombs - as this is vehicle specific?

 

Wow - turned into 3 questions .....

[Tzimisce169]

1: The 3D6 hits are automatic. Roll 3D6 for the total and roll that number of dice to wound.

 

2: Your GH squads can use their Krak grenades against a dreadnought getting 1 attack each at Str 6 and needing 6's to hit.

 

3: Yes you can do it with Meltabombs but again you only get 1 attack and you need a 6 to hit.

 

This changes if the dread is immobilised. If immobilised then you roll vs the dreads WS as per normal combat. (still only 1 attack tho).

 

Hope this helps.

[Natanael]

Yep, above is all the right answers.

 

- Nat

[Valkyrion]

Take your psychic test. If passed the unit suffers 3D6 hits. There is no roll to hit, assuming all other conditions are met (line of sight and range).

 

You can Krak a dreadnought for D6+6, or Melta Bomb a dreadnought for 2D6+8, p73 of the rule book. Dreadnoughts are vehicles.

 

Gazumped. By ten minutes no less. How did I manage that?

Still, reinforces the point made by Tzimisce.

[nurglez]

although, in the space wolf faq it states that a unit effected by MH still has to take difficult/dangerous terrain test, even if it wasn't hit or wounded, which to me implies that you need to roll to hit, which I disagree with..

[Brother Nathan]

usually when you have phsycic shoting you still have to roll to hit. nids do, eldar do, ba do etc. so why would wolves not?

[Blarmb]

Of course, if it rolls to hit normally and the movement penalty still applies on a miss, and then one declares an attack on a unit 84" away...

[Warhead01]

that last one was just bizar...

But it is the best power.. ;) and my rune priest never leaves home with out it!

[Valerian]

usually when you have phsycic shoting you still have to roll to hit. nids do, eldar do, ba do etc. so why would wolves not?

 

Just read how MH is written. It isn't a Space Wolves thing, we still roll to hit for our other psychic shooting attacks, just not MH.

 

V

[Brother Nathan]

A) i dont play wolve sor have their dex

:tu: does it say you dont have to roll to hit? cause if it dosent then you do. only auto hits worded and templats dont have to roll to hit

[hendrik]

here's a quote from the dex:

This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits with AP -. Place a marker next to the affected unit-next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous

[Spacefrisian]

Note on grenades and walkers: youll hit on WS value if you either immobilize or stun it.

[dswanick]

A) i dont play wolve sor have their dex

;) does it say you dont have to roll to hit? cause if it dosent then you do. only auto hits worded and templats dont have to roll to hit

here's a quote from the dex:

This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits with AP -. Place a marker next to the affected unit-next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous

Yes, by reading the wording of the rule it says that the target unit is hit by 3d6 hits not shots. The hits are automatic. As for those asking why the FAQ says "still has to take difficult/dangerous terrain test, even if it wasn't hit or wounded" - it's because you take your psychic test before resolving the psychic shooting attack. So the test can pass, and the target unit can receive the difficult terrain effect and then you can find that the target unit is outside the 18" range of the wounding hits. At least, that's how my LGS plays it. I don't agree with the result(being able to MH a unit 48" away just for the difficult terrain effect if I'm willing to sacrifice the possibility of wounds) but that's why I personally only target units within 18" of my RP.

[hendrik]

about the 48" difficult/dangerous terrain style, that wouldn't work imo since the unit isn't hit(because it's outside the 18" zone) and thus remains unaffected

[Decoy]

about the 48" difficult/dangerous terrain style, that wouldn't work imo since the unit isn't hit(because it's outside the 18" zone) and thus remains unaffected

 

 

Unfortunately, that's not how the power is worded. It simply states that a unit... Hang on, let me get my rulebook... "Placce a marker next to the affected unit- next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain...." By your logic, if all the wounds failed to hit/wound or they were all saved, they wouldn't be in Difficult Terrain because they weren't affected. A unit does not have to be injured by a power to have the Difficult bit apply to it, and in the case of this particular power, the only thing that must apply regarding the Difficult part is that the enemy unit was targeted. In this way, you don't have to have made a roll to wound, simply targeted the unit with the power.

 

I'd consider it bad sportsmanship to play it that way, but officially (RAW), that's how the power works, and I've seen it done that way in tournaments with organizers siding with the Wolf player.

[Valkyrion]

Generally speaking, any psychic powers with a ranged weapon profile require a hit roll, otherwise they hit automatically, or don't happen at all.

 

No Eldar powers require a hit roll, incidently. The Blood Angels Smite power does, but no Blood Lance, the Zoanthrope Powers do but not the Hive Tyrants.

 

Regarding MH - 'This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits with AP -. Place a marker next to the affected unit-next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous'

 

A unit beyond 18" cannot be targetted, surely? It's a psychic 'shooting' attack - what happens when you shoot something that happens to be out of range?

p17 of the rulebook - 'any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically'

 

I agree that no wounds need to be caused to apply the difficult terrain test, but aside from rolling to hit this power must surely abide by all the normal shooting rules - line of sight, range, etc.

[Decoy]

Valkyrion:

 

The MH doesn't require a To-Hit because it blatantly disregards the To-Hit rolls. "3d6 Hits" is not "3d6 attacks that must confirm rolls to hit."

 

In regards to shooting-rules... You do not need to target a unit that is in range of your weapons. Indeed, if my bolter-hunters wanted to try to shoot at a Tau skimmer twenty feet away and three boards over, they could do just that (assuming that skimmer is in the same game.) They would just automatically miss. They still, however, would have shot, meaning they have targeted that skimmer and fired at it, and missed.

 

The same principle works for MH. You target the unit 48" away, and now it is Difficult Terrained. If the target unit is outside 18", the shooting effect automatically fails.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Am I reading this correctly?....

 

psychic test, roll to hit(one dice), roll to wound (3d6), resolve wounds, Diff/dang test Terrain when moved?

[Hear da Lamentation]

I think the overwhelming answer there Lord Ragnarok is as follows.

 

Psychic test : 3d6 wounds : dang/diff test.

 

As has been said - there is no mention of "hits" - only wounds. Look at Living Lightning for instance. That clearly has a shooting profile and refers to hits - MH doesn't,.

 

On a purely personal basis, I'm not getting into discussions about units outside 18" range still being affected. It clearly states the range is 18" - any other argument is somantics and is trying to stretch the rules to do something clearly not intended (imho).

 

Didn't know I had to roll a 6 to hit Dread's if not stunned or immobilised (with grenades.) Nasty.

 

Thanks for all the answers guys.

[Valkyrion]

No, you make a psychic test, the target suffers 3D6 hits, roll to wound, resolve wounds, difficult terrain. You don't need to roll to hit.

 

Regarding MH - I know it doesn't require a to hit roll, I've said so, but that is a blatant abuse of the RAI and it is arguable about the RAW. It says 'place a marker next to the affected unit' - if the unit is not in range it cannot be affected. If the unit has not been affected by the 3D6 hits then it is not affected by the difficult terrain test. It's like being allergic to peanuts - if you eat peanuts you might get poorly, if you don't then you won't. Not; if you don't eat peanuts you might still get poorly as though you had eaten peanuts even though you hadn't. The peanuts haven't affected you therefore you are not affected by the peanuts.

I understand what you are saying, but feel this is unnecessary ambuiguity designed for power playing beyond the spirit of the game.

[Lord Ragnarok]

So the only part that is ignored for a "psychic shooting attack" is the "to hit"? Still have to have Los etc...?

[Valkyrion]

Yes ignore the 'to hit'. Make your psychic test and follow the instructions of the power in accordance with the normal rules for shooting. LoS and Range are important from a personal POV, and I'm fairly sure from the rules POV, but obviously there is some debate about that.

[dswanick]

No, you make a psychic test, the target suffers 3D6 hits, roll to wound, resolve wounds, difficult terrain. You don't need to roll to hit.

 

Regarding MH - I know it doesn't require a to hit roll, I've said so, but that is a blatant abuse of the RAI and it is arguable about the RAW. It says 'place a marker next to the affected unit' - if the unit is not in range it cannot be affected. If the unit has not been affected by the 3D6 hits then it is not affected by the difficult terrain test. It's like being allergic to peanuts - if you eat peanuts you might get poorly, if you don't then you won't. Not; if you don't eat peanuts you might still get poorly as though you had eaten peanuts even though you hadn't. The peanuts haven't affected you therefore you are not affected by the peanuts.

I understand what you are saying, but feel this is unnecessary ambuiguity designed for power playing beyond the spirit of the game.

 

Codex: Space Wolves FAQ v1.1 disagrees with your statement:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound.

I believe this is because Murderous Hurricane is actually a two part power.

Part 1 - is a standard Psychic Power : on a successful psychic test the affected unit treats all terrain as difficult and dangerous.

Part 2 - is the Psychic Shooting Attack : where the affected unit sustains 3d6 hits if within 18".

As (Non-shooting)Psychic abilities do not necessarily have range restrictions the only prerequisite for Part 1 is that the target unit be within Line of Sight. I'm not sure that is the intent of the rule (thus the reason I avoid using it against units more than 18" away), but that does seem to me to be the RAW involved.

[MalachiOfRuss]

Ehhhhhh... I think it's a real stretch of RAI to say that the "dangerous/difficult terrain" part of the power has unlimited range. I would consider it serious rules-lawyering if it happened at my table.