The Green Tide

[shortysl]

Hey all. I consider myself a veteran, i've been playing for about 14 years after all. My regular opponents however have always had power armour-esque stats (Flesh Tearers, Necrons, Chaos Space Marines). My friend has just informed me that he's finally finished his Ork army. Now, i know the theory behind fighting Orks and i have had a few brushes with them before but my friend delighted in telling me that if he takes Da Vulcha and a squad of 19 Stormboyz, he will have a unit that can Deep Strike, assault on the turn it does so, and can throw out something like 64 S4 attacks and 8-9 S9 attacks that ignore armour saves. All of this is for a meagre 325 points if i remember rightly. My question therefore is this; how in the Emperor's name am i supposed to combat that? It's not like i can whittle it down with weapons fire before it hits me and it WILL kill whatever it hits. I can't afford a unit like that running round my lines, so what do i do? Indeed, can anything be done?

[IanSturrock]

It'll kill whatever it hits, aye, so you need to be sure it doesn't hit more than one thing -- spread out a little till it shows up (which will also deny him obvious safe spots to deep strike into -- it still scatters 2/3 of the time, after all), let it kill something if it lands in range, then shoot it on your next turn (it's no more survivable than the same number of Boyz).

[shortysl]

That was my initial thought on the matter but it can take an awful lot of firepower to neutralise 20 boyz and with the rest of his army advancing on me i'm not sure i have the firepower to spare. I do tend to run the majority of my army in transports so i could keep my forces embarked until they arrive (all those attacks to neutralise a 35 point rhino) but again i run the risk of being surrounded by 2000 points of Orks by the time my Dark Angels disembark :ph34r: maybe this is just one of those situations where i have to knuckle up, take the kicking and hope like hell my Astartes last long enough to force a draw.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You're worrying too much. Like it was said , the vulcha boys scatter and he'll have to find a good spot where top deepstrike 20 guys. Sure they can make miincemeat of a squad, but then they'll be open to be rapid fired to death. Plus anything that you have that costs 325 points like the vulcha points will put up a fight...

[Tanhausen]

I agree with Lucifer: landing a 20 cm circle (at least!) without a single model touching your models...risky.

 

And if they land on scenary, dangerous terrain is your friend!

 

Another option (don't know your list) is castling with cheap vehicles, so he has to charge them or jump them (which he won't be able to if you deploy properly).

 

Ultima ratio is onion technique: 5 men squads, deployed in rings so you can rapid fire/countercharge (as suggested above).

[Mentat]

I haven't faced this particular squad but I do own 3 deep striking armies... Deathwing, Daemons, and CSM (summoned lesser daemons), so my advice is from that perspective and I haven't actually tried these solutions....

 

I'm not sure what kind of shooting attacks that vulture squad has, but you may be able to stay mounted in rhinos, so that when he comes in he will only be able to assault the vehicle, which will probably be wrecked or blown up. Then you could rapid fire or flame him into oblivion.

 

Or castle up a bit so he can't deepstrike within 6" of your troops. A wall of rhinos with gaps in it for your troops to fire out of should work. He won't be able to deep strike inside of your wall because he will mishap on your troops. If he is trying to get within assault range thru a gap he will have a good chance of mishapping on a rhino. If he does get lucky, he will still not be able to get his whole squad into combat through the gap. Hopefully he will come in on turn 2 and have to charge a rhino. Then you can rapid fire him or counter assault, or have the rhinos tank shock him to bunch him up to be flamed.

 

The rest of the ork horde will be bearing down on you so be ready to mount up and relocate.

 

If you aren't using rhinos or other vehicles, the situation is worse... spread your guys out to reduce his safe deep striking areas and put combat squads on the outer edges so hopefully he will only get 5 guys on his initial charge.

 

If you are playing deathwing, surround your other troops with a skirmish line of a couple of lightning claw squads. They should kill about 5 orks before they attack, which is better than nothing. This would reduce his number of attacks by about 20 I think. Then shoot him up to reduce his numbers and assault him (with TH/SS guys if possible) to finish him off.

 

Remember that 20 stormboyz has a large footprint for deep striking and your troops and vehicles can restrict the areas where he can safely enter.

[shortysl]

These are all fair points guys and are all appreciated. I admit freely that the idea of facing such a deadly horde army after so long facing small elite forces does disturb me more than a little. I hadn't considered the logistics of Deep Striking that many infantry models.

 

For the sake of a complete idea of things, i run the following list:

Belial with TH/SS

Deathwing Command Squad-2x TH/SS, Standard and 3x LC's

Mounted in Land Raider (my friend is good enough to let me use C:SM's transport capacity)

Deathwing Squad-CML and CF

2x 10 man Tactical Squads-PW, Flamer and Rhino

10 man Tactical Squad-PW, Plasma Gun and Drop Pod

Venerable Dreadnought with Assault Cannon

Venerable Dreadnought with Multi-Melta

Dreadnought with TLLC and Missile Launcher

 

I could ditch the Land Raider as it's armament is not appropriate for Orks and it's a lot of points.

[Tanhausen]

LR is an AWESOME option vs Orks... you only need to add "Crusader" to your choice :)

 

Your list... at 2k it seems a bit unbalanced for the games I usually get.

 

- 3 Dreads is quite a gamble... walking Ven MM is asking for lootas shots all the way, I'd change it for LassCan and hide half of the profile behind scenary

 

- All of your squads are quite expensive points-wise so... his unit will very probably make their points back if they touch you!

 

- If this is a taylored list, I'd suggest getting scouts (even if they're Elite, they are cheaper than regular marines) to deny landing zones with infiltration

 

- Deploy in a corner, one side blocked with your dreads, the other with the LR and rhino

 

Unless some serious list revamp, I think you'll have a tough time :)

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

I have a 71 Model force that does well vs Horde army and pretty much most things

1850 points

I take 4 Tactical Squads

Flamer Lascannon x 10 marines power sword

Melta Gun and Multi melta x 10 marines powerfist

Plasma Gun and Lascannon x 10 marines (powerfist or sword)

Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon x 10 marines

Scout Squad with missle launcher x10 scouts

 

veterans with 2 Fists, 2 swords, rest basic HTH gear and 6-10 Storm shields x10 and a flamer

Chaplain with power fist

 

Devasator Squad

Missle Launcher x3 x5 marines

heavy Bolters x3 x5 marines

whirlwind

 

Flamers can work well also as another tac squad option

you can switch out the storm shields and replace the chaplain for Azreal to lead the vets as an option

[Bartali]

Unless some serious list revamp, I think you'll have a tough time ;)

 

+1. The list betrays his past of mostly fighting mech MEQ - it's missing a whole chunk of ranged anti-infantry, and you'll be relying on the Tacticals with Bolters and Flamers do most of the killing. You really need some method of dealing with hordes at range before they swamp you. Ditching the Dreads for Auto-Cannon/Heavy Bolter Preds would be a start, as would changing your Land Raider to a Crusader

[Vilicate]

Make sure to remind him that the Zagstruck kills some models if he deepstrikes and assaults.

 

I can't recommend Vindicators enough when facing down hordes, especially orks.

 

I think as far as your list goes as long as you castle up a bit I think you'll do okay. Fighting against horde armies completely changes the way that you have to play - I remember when I finally figured out how to take down tyranids back in 4th ed - I lost 6 tournament games in a row to that army. I finally got down target priority (as far as letting stuff get to my Marines). Once I had that, it was golden. One thing to keep in mind is focusing firepower; destroying units or getting them down to numbers where they won't tie you up if they do manage to assault you.

[clanfield]

if i were the ork id be outflanking with dethcopters with a buzz saw and sending in some beefed up nobs so the vulcha boys were a distraction a guy i fight rgular uses this and its a nightmare to deal with a single nob with a power claw can have 5 attacks on the charge with ws5 (banner) and str 10(furiuos charge) to compound the the problem of of pain boy(5+invi cybork ,4+feel no pain) and if hes bright enough to use shoota boys in big squads(30) they lay down some serious fire power(assult 2) and killa kans (x3)and wargh possable round 2 assults the orks are tough,

i know this isnt much help with your list but it might help you prepare for some of the things coming your way

[shabbadoo]

Feed Da Vulcha Boyz a Combat Squad, then burn/gun them down and charge them to finish them. Trading up 100 points for 325 sounds like deal to me.

 

Also, if your friend throws 8-9 Str 9 power klaw attacks on you from Da Vulcha Squad, he is a cheatin' git. As us Orks sez, you should Dreadsock the git. That means taking a metal Dreadnought, putting it in a sock, and beating the snot out of him with it until he decides not to be cheatin' git any longer. ;)

 

Here's the deal: Boss Zagstruk can be taken *instead of* a Nob, *not in addition to* a Nob. As Boss Zagstrukk can only throw a maximum of 5 attacks on the charge, counting as power klaw attacks that strike in Initiative order(I 4), that is all the Str 9 armor save-ignoring nastiness you should be facing. Also, his foot claws *only* count as power klaws when he charges(the power klaw effect negates his +1 attack from choppa+slugga). If not charging, Boss Zagstruk's feet do *nothing* special at all, and so you then get armor saves vs. every attack the squad can dish out. With their 6+ armor save, there is not likely to be much, if any, of them dishing out much of anything out after you shoot and charge them though.

 

So, the unit will hit you hard once...if it lands where your opponent want it to. Make an effort to deploy so as to feed them something cheap like Rhinos or a Combat Squad if Da Vulcha Boyz do land on target. If they don't land on target, or after they have had their fun, annihilate them.

 

As to the rest of the horde army, flamers, blasts, and Assault is the way to go. TH+SS DW are wasted on a horde. LC DW however will mow stuff down. I would recommend the mover tactical TDA DW even. And yes, I would drop the Land Raider. You would be better off taking Rhinos and more bodies. Never underestimate the power of a Rhino running into a horde, that horde mauling it, and it likely exploding due to being mauled so heavily with so many close combat attacks. :lol

[shortysl]

Also, if your friend throws 8-9 Str 9 power klaw attacks on you from Da Vulcha Squad, he is a cheatin' git. As us Orks sez, you should Dreadsock the git. That means taking a metal Dreadnought, putting it in a sock, and beating the snot out of him with it until he decides not to be cheatin' git any longer. ;)

 

I will remember this legendary move always! :P

In fairness to him, he's a good bloke. It's more likely he just got over excited when working out his attacks. We're both of a mind that a victory through cheating is no victory at all. Your advice is much appreciated though; a couple of the other guys were right, it does seem like i was worrying more than i should have been, but such is the price of unfamiliarity. The battle is tomorrow and i've got to say i'm feeling more confident about it. I wasn't concerned so much about winning or losing, i just feel that any game where a ridiculously powerful unit is present kind of ruins the fun for the player on the receiving end. As ever, i appreciate the responses that you've all given. This is how a community should be.

[syypher]

Remember if he assaults the turn he deepstrikes he removes D3 stormboys just because their paks are bad and they go out of control and blow up...

 

Also if he ever moves (jump) not infantry walk, then he has to roll a D6, and a 1 means a stormboy dies.

 

Also like everyone says, just spread out and let him do his "one time super awesome assault" just one time :P Destroy it after it lands.

[HJL]

i play an ork horde army and i can tell you for a fact that flamers are a bad idea. they sound good in theory but youll find that to use them your in range to be in combat. unless you have reduced the number of models down enough youll lose..

 

 

the best tactic against orks, stay in your vehicles, make him kill those vehicles in close combat. he will then be clumped. either way you can hit him with a flamer, probably hitting 10-15 guys, THATS when flamers are effective against orks. it beats me every time.

[shabbadoo]

That is of course how you use flamers against most anything that you intend to Assault. Foot slogging marines with flamers is not the best way to go. :whoops:

[shortysl]

Ok so i feel a little sheepish now. The game was yesterday and my opponent brought along a last minute surprise; Crimson Fists! (the sneaky little :huh: ) We rolled an Annihilation mission and my deployment went very nicely (Land Raider and a pair of Rhinos on the far flank and everything else in Reserve) I'll keep the details brief but his Venerable Dreadnought in a Drop Pod made short work of my Land Raider. We traded blows for the entire game, both with good tactics and neither of us losing our heads. As one unit was destroyed it was then avenged in the next turn. The arrival of the Ravenwing and 10 Deathwing Terminators in the same turn really freaked him out but he brought it back by firing his entire army (including a Vindicator) at them and then castling up in following turns. My Tactical Squads did me proud, destroying his Vindicator, his Terminator squad and his Sternguard, all while using Bolters and Krak Grenades. The game ended at 6 killpoints apiece but that was a small matter compared to just how much fun the game was for both of us. If anyone still says the Dark Angels can't hold their own against other chapters, i'll call them a liar to their face. The Lion would be proud.

[HJL]

good job and great game by the sounds of it. close fought games are always much better than 2 turn wipe outs!

[shortysl]

good job and great game by the sounds of it. close fought games are always much better than 2 turn wipe outs!

 

QFT

[HJL]

whats QFT?

 

the only thing i can think of is Quantum Field Theory. :o

[shortysl]

whats QFT?

 

the only thing i can think of is Quantum Field Theory. :D

Lol, it's a far cry from what i thought it was the first time i saw it (Quit :P Talking), but it actually stands for for "Quoted For Truth"

[Isiah]

I think I preferred Quantum Field Theory ^_^

 

Well done on the hard-fought draw shortysl. At least you'll know what to do against his Orks - next time!

 

Cheers

I