Deathwing Squad Core

[Ezzeran]

So, there was a time... back when we first got Rending assault cannons while still having only a mini-dex to work with... back when we had whole stickied threads dedicated to tactica... that the community came up with what you might call a "standard pattern" Deathwing squad. The "ideal" setup in a take all comers style list. It was meant to be a balance of firepower, survivability and well-roundedness to be able to perform well in whatever situation it faced, while still staying relatively points efficient.

 

Now, to be sure, there were nuances and differences of opinion. Sgt. loadout was always a popular topic of discussion. Land-raider vs. footslogging was another. But through a careful application of Mathammer, Theoryhammer and actual WH40k play, a general consensus was born of what should become the core of the army.

 

Classically, Deathwing has been an army that has had to be able to be flexible and adapt. The limited number of models we put plunk down onto a table made that an unavoidable reality. Individual squads had to pull their weight. Other armies were geared towards having specialized units accomplishing specific roles, and lists were pretty predictable and formulaic in the sense that other armies specialized squads were standardized to accomplish their role (possible exception being 5 man las/plas marines?) We could identify those threats, and then we built squads around what we felt we would need to counter most often. In many ways, those specialist squads had similar identifiable attributes that made it easier.

 

Now, I've been out of the game for a while, so I couldn't tell you what's in another army's codex anymore. I got back to the days when we were worrying about having enough I4 attacks and where AV12 skimmers were our biggest pain in the butt. From what I remember of the recent codices, it seemed as if squad roles were becoming even more specialized. That makes the classic "take all comers" list more difficult to design. Likewise, it forces us to examine whether or not we can reliably build a take all comers squad. Is it even realistic?

 

I believe we did it once, and we can do it again.

 

So, if everyone's willing, that's the point of this thread. An homage to the tactica threads of old to come up with a community consensus of that Deathwing squad you would rely on regardless of the list you're up against. That said, here's some considerations I think are important:

 

1) The opposition. What are the dominant lists, and the components that make those lists tick? No one squad can do it all, but since we have little choice, how do we prepare our TDA armored brethren to do just that?

 

2) Weapon selection/point efficiency. Our ability to mix and match is still our greatest strength. I know the FAQ has many of us looking in a new direction, but I'm a traditionalist. You like 2 shot Cyclones? Prove it with math. I won't believe you if you say all out TH/SS is the way to go unless you're a better salesman than I am. Besides, I have a space-hulk hold full of storm bolter armed terminators, and I'm not replacing my whole army just yet.

 

3) Application. How will this squad move, shoot, react, score, take casualties, etc. What are the strengths and weaknesses?

 

4) Core Deathwing is the operative concept. This is not a greenwing or doublewing thread. We're not there yet. That's not to say it can't be applied there, but the idea is, if you had just enough points to take one squad, and you need to make it work in a variety of situations, what would you bet your Faith in the Emperor on?

 

What this thread is NOT:

 

1) About your overall list. It's not operating in a vacuum, either. Discuss how the squad could be supported, but perhaps the best point of view to come at this from is, "f we're supporting this squad, it should be with a squad just like it, and this is how."

 

2) About Belial or his command squad. That's a whole other thread, in my opinion.

 

3) About trick lists in general. We should consider flexibility in our deployment options, and this squad should work well deep striking, coming down a ramp or starting on a table edge.

 

Lets see what we come up with!

 

Ezz

[breng77]

1) The opposition. What are the dominant lists, and the components that make those lists tick? No one squad can do it all, but since we have little choice, how do we prepare our TDA armored brethren to do just that?

 

Currently the most dominant lists out there IMO would be. Mech Guard in its many variations (Chimera, Veterans, and Usually Vendettas, + choice of heavy support.) Space Wolves, either Missile launcher spam wolf guard, or Mech supported by Thunderwolf Lords/Cav seem to be the popular builds. Mech Blood angels. Everything else seems to be running a fairly distant second (not to say that other armies are not competitive, but when I go to GTs these are the builds that tend to be on the top tables..

 

2) Weapon selection/point efficiency. Our ability to mix and match is still our greatest strength. I know the FAQ has many of us looking in a new direction, but I'm a traditionalist. You like 2 shot Cyclones? Prove it with math. I won't believe you if you say all out TH/SS is the way to go unless you're a better salesman than I am. Besides, I have a space-hulk hold full of storm bolter armed terminators, and I'm not replacing my whole army just yet.

 

The cyclone is s better buy for foot deathwing units for several reasons. 1.) You can keep an additional storm bolter and still run 2 to 3 storm shields. 2.) Range. When you slow on foot having the ability to strike at range is key (it also keeps us out of charge range of some of the faster units in the game and makes objective camping viable.) 3.) Math Assuming bother guns are in range Against AV 10 both guns penetrate about 89% of the time, AV 11 (the most common armor value) Assault cannon penetrates 44% and the Cyclone 66%. Against AV 12, both are 44%. AV 13 The assault cannon is 29.6% to only 22% from the Cyclone. And AV 14 the cyclone cannot penetrate while the assault cannon can manage almost 15% of the time. Against most monstrous Creatures the cyclone is better averaging 1 wound that ignore most armor saves VS .59 wounds by the Assault cannon. The cyclone can also double out (instant kill) toughness 4 which an assault cannon cannot do. All this given that the weapon is 10 points cheaper makes it a much better buy in general (that is not to say you cannot make an argument for including assault cannons).

 

I also don't think all TH/SS is the way to go, I am playing around with 2-3 in each squad (leaning toward 3 for the durability.) I think this choice really depends on how much you want to play the "meta game" against the armies I listed as most dominant the all TH/SS set up is probably better, but will struggle if matched up against say horde orks.

 

3) Application. How will this squad move, shoot, react, score, take casualties, etc. What are the strengths and weaknesses?

 

I don't believe that this is something you can answer outside the confines of a game as it will be greatly dictated by matchup. Generally the cyclone/heavy weapon will be the last guy to take wounds, and the TH/SS termies will take saves on any AP1 or 2 shots. Everything else depends on the mission and the matchup.

 

Strengths: Durability to Low AP fire and small amounts of small arms fire. (1 in 6 Ap3 or higher wounds kill one termi). Ranged Fire power while not super high in a cyclone heavy list is some of the best in the game, and some of the hardest to reduce. Close combat against MEQ or elite infantry.

 

Weaknesses: Massed firepower, taking lots of saves will mean dead termies. Close combat against large squads. Mobility: while you can always move and shoot, you can never move more than 12" in one turn, so big mistakes in deployment can be costly.

[LardO'Blood]

1. I don't feel I can contribute much here, I play in a relatively shallow, relaxed meta.

2. Traditionally, the greatest weakness of Deathwing was the lack of long range fire support, significant invulnerable saves and mobility. The former squad loadout was something along these lines:

SB/PS sergeant

LC terminator

SB/PF terminator

SB/CF terminator

AC/PF terminator

 

We can enhance the Deathwing by trading the assault cannons for CMLs. The krak missiles will give us much better long range fire support with which to take out medium vehicles or monstrous creatures. The frag missiles will give us first or second turn blasts to pile on hordes, cutting down their numbers early. Along with "better" fire power, the CML is 10 points cheaper and can fire twice the range of the assault cannon.

The second most (IMO) weakness of the Deathwing is the lack of invulnerable save. Many of my fellow brethren have faced a large squad of genestealers, harlequins or even a hive tyrant, only to be disappointed by all the armor ignoring attacks. Now that we have a 3++ stormshield, we can pile our rending/power weapon hits on those models and expect them to survive. This lets us take on enemies in close combat that we traditionally would stand back from and try to whittle down from a range. As the storm shields also provide us a cushion against hidden power fists or power klaws, the I4 LC attacks are not sorely missed. Also with the guaranteed stun result on vehicles, a chainfist is less necessary with two thunderhammers in the squad.

 

With all this in mind, I propose:

SB/PS sergeant

TH/SS terminator

SB/PF terminator

TH/SS terminator

CML/SB/PF terminator

[Bartali]

What this thread is NOT:[

 

1) About your overall list. It's not operating in a vacuum, either. Discuss how the squad could be supported, but perhaps the best point of view to come at this from is, "f we're supporting this squad, it should be with a squad just like it, and this is how."

 

Can't have a valid discussion about Deathwing squads without putting it in the contex of a list, without this you are placing them in a vacuum.

 

I think there's a temptation to try to get your Deathwing Squads to do everything - a Storm Bolter here, a Lightning Claw there, a few TH/SS over there etc. In my opinion this dilutes there power - much better to focus on a role, and have the rest of your list pick up the slack.

[breng77]

I think there's a temptation to try to get your Deathwing Squads to do everything - a Storm Bolter here, a Lightning Claw there, a few TH/SS over there etc. In my opinion this dilutes there power - much better to focus on a role, and have the rest of your list pick up the slack.

 

I have to say in general I agree with this sentiment, it is a much better idea to properly support the deathwing than it is to have them try to do everything.

[Ezzeran]

But, really, in a pure Deathwing list, what's the rest of the list?

 

1) Belial and his command squad, which essentially amounts to more close combat terminators

 

2) Land raiders

 

3) Dreads

 

So with the addition of the occasional lascannon shot or DCCW attack, we're not really looking at much else.

 

The core of this army has always been it's terminators, and how they perform on the table. You're saying you'd switch your squad composition up based on what, exactly?

 

Ezz

[IanSturrock]

The counter-argument to "specialise each squad" is that if you do that, you make your opponent's target priority easier. If the only thing he really fears is your sole AC and SB/PF squad, that's going to be his first target.

 

Personally I am leaning towards CML and 5 x TH/SS on every squad, because even 1-2 guys per squad with 5++ saves rather than 3++ are basically twice as likely to die from power weapons etc.

 

That said, diversity for wound allocation is quite a help against torrent of fire. If you're rolling 15+ armour saves (as I was in my game on Tuesday), you've got a much higher chance of getting five ones in big handfull of dice than you have of getting five lots of at least one one in each group of three dice (I hope that makes sense!). I could see an argument for CML/TH/SS, TH/SS x2, SB/PW, SB/CF, particularly in a purely DW army, in at least some squads. I'm just not *quite* sure that a meagre 4 storm bolter shots will make enough of a difference. More testing required!

[krewl]

I said this in the other thread and will repeat it here. I feel the FAQ opened extra options up enabling us to be better.

That means that our squads stopped beeing a default setup and moved into a more specialised roles, (Note, based on foot deathwing)

 

I have the one Up Front rock.

Belial and his 5 TH&SS buddies with banner and apothecary. These are meant to either be ignored and chew up vast ammounts of enemy things. (Unlikely) or soak up large ammounts of firepower because they are so scary.

As they have a 2+, 3++, and a 4+ FnP they should take those hits very well. I assume they will die, that is what they are here for. Shots placed here do not reach your other units.

And who knows every now and then they will live for some fluke reason and take names and kick rear end, ending up scoring on the enemy home objective. More yeah for you :-D

 

Then the close support squads. (usually 2)

These have 2 TH & SS for ap2/1 shots a chainfist for AV13 walkers and raiders, again the CML for those ranged shots.

So TH&SS, TH & SS, PS & SB, CML & Chainfist & SB, SB & PF. 4 types for wound allocation. Some people are advocating 3 TH&SS guys in a squad where one has the CML. I'd keep the CML off a TH&SS termie if you only have 2 and put it on if you have 3.

 

Last the far support squads, depending on points they will be the first to drop chainfists if needed. (2 or 3 in a full list depending on points limits.)

They have full bolters except for 1 TH&SS guy. You guessed it he takes that lascannon that can reach the unit. Guarding rear objectives and supporting the Belial death ball from range with the CML's.

 

Synergy in how you play is so important in this elite list. As I statted Belial is there for attracting bullets, but if you work your army around supporting him and his command squad friends odd are you will leave them alive aginst several lists. (Say Wolf guard ML spam, although a very good list these guys shoot many S8 ap3, which you roll a 2+ save against. :devil:. This means you have a propper chance to do actual real damage with them, so some times this unit can pass shooting to run if it will force the enemy to take them out.

 

In general I feel the CML is needed to equalise the playing field. We may not be fast but we are relentless so moving while shooting. Shooting down the rhino's etc. makes them as slow/fast as wse are, but 90% of the enemy loses firepower/range when moving.

 

The poor lightning claw seems to be off the map for now, as I gues (Army is modeled but not playtested yet) either shooting SB or TH&SS are more important.

I'd love to hear experiences from people who played their new and improved deathwing though to see if I should re-equip the sarges with twin claws.

[IanSturrock]

I've used 1 x TH/SS/CML, 3 x TH/SS, and 1 x LC/LC, in most of my DQ squads so far post-FAQ, because I only have 8 TH/SS termies finished. The LC/LC guy does often help somewhat, but I definitely notice him being less survivable. He doesn't always make it into combat.

 

It's important not to assume that there aren't units out there that can put more 5+ armour-ignoring hits on you (incubi, harlequins, burnas, or other pure-PW squads; triple plasma veterans in a Guard army, etc.). Likewise, don't assume that you will still have all 5 termies left in the squad; if you only have 2 or 3 TH/SS termies in a squad, there will be times when you only have 1 of those left, and still get hit with 3 plasma shots...

 

I don't think there is any one right answer. I do know that 4-5 TH/SS in a squad works, but I'm willing to be convinced that other options do, too. For example, a SB and AC squad could potentially have a 4+ cover save from hiding behind your all TH/SS squad. Sure, you'd be giving anything they shot at 4+, too, but in most games, if you need cover for them, the stuff you're shooting them at either has a decent armour save or a cover save already.

[Bartali]

But, really, in a pure Deathwing list, what's the rest of the list?

 

1) Belial and his command squad, which essentially amounts to more close combat terminators

 

2) Land raiders

 

3) Dreads

 

So with the addition of the occasional lascannon shot or DCCW attack, we're not really looking at much else.

 

The core of this army has always been it's terminators, and how they perform on the table. You're saying you'd switch your squad composition up based on what, exactly?

 

Ezz

 

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. Pure Deathwing is very different as to how most of us play on here - Foot Deathwing with support from the rest of the codex. Pure Deathwing obviously has less (2 !) support choices.

[breng77]

If you are going fluff pure DW those dreads need to be venerable as well. Making it even tougher.

[Brom MKIV]

I agree that it is going to be difficult to find one "standard" squad now. I used the following setup in a few games vs. wolves:

 

5 DW command, 5 th/ss, cml, apoth, std

5 DW, cml + th/ss, 2 th/ss, 2 pf/sb

5 DW, cml + sb/pf, 2 th/ss, pf/sb, sergeant

5 DW, cml + sb/pf, 2 th/ss, pf/sb, sergeant

 

During one game a bad DWA scatter saw a unit with just two th/ss take 17 wounds with 4 power weapon wounds all on a single shield. While the squad did take casualties, wound allocation helped immensely. The sergeant is definitely still useful for this purpose, but I am leaning towards giving him a th/ss in order to keep more s8 attacks. 2 i4 attacks is just not that useful and now his bullet catching isnt really needed.

So far my experiences with th/ss have lead me to believe that specialized squads will be my preference, as opposed to spamming identical units, especially since torrent of fire is still their #1 downfall. I also feel that CFs, while still great, are not necessary like they once were. Too bad since I have some nice conversions.

 

My current favorite setup is shown below. I usually roll with 1-2 LRCs so the th/ss squads either ride or DWA.

 

5 DW command, 5 th/ss, cml, apoth, std

5 DW, 5 th/ss, cml

5 DW, cml + sb/pf, 2 th/ss, 2 pf/sb

5 DW, cml + sb/pf, 2 th/ss, 2 pf/sb

[RayJ]

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. Pure Deathwing is very different as to how most of us play on here - Foot Deathwing with support from the rest of the codex. Pure Deathwing obviously has less (2 !) support choices.

 

Confining one's self to 5-6 unit options in a codex just to maintain old fluff is a mistake, IMO. I won't presume that playing for fluff or narrative in itself is wrong, but don't come crying to us or your opponents when you find out you don't have the tools available. I know this statement doesn't really apply to Bartali himself, but it's something I feel needs to be stressed for everyone strictly adherent to the 3rd Edition 'Deathwing' list.

 

GW moved in the right direction by allowing Deathwing, Ravenwing and the battle companies to support each other. Take advantage of it when it makes sense to. This latest update shifts around what is 'optimal' for Deathwing and opens up many ways for them to bolster the rest of the DA army.

 

I think DA armies that are Deathwing heavy will be more successful than those that are not as long as the Deathwing squads are taking advantage of their increased survivability (read: Storm Shields). As breng77 suggests, 2-3 in a squad is going to be ideal for most situations. We do have room for some specialist units. My current army runs the command squad fully kit with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. I can definitely see times where the Assault Cannon will be a preferred upgrade over the Cyclone.

 

My play style tends to lean towards using efficiency and versatility as a means to magnify my playing ability and rules knowledge. With the current changes, that means Cyclones will be more beneficial in most situations.

[Isiah]

Well let's leave that argument to one side because it isn't really relevant to what Ezz is trying to do here :).

 

which is:

 

4) Core Deathwing is the operative concept. This is not a greenwing or doublewing thread. We're not there yet. That's not to say it can't be applied there, but the idea is, if you had just enough points to take one squad, and you need to make it work in a variety of situations, what would you bet your Faith in the Emperor on?

 

There is already another excellent topic on DW squad setups, maybe it would be good to confine this one to pure DW. As the title's sub head says, this topic is an offshoot of that one... with a different slant. Yes there is massive crossover but let's see how it runs and what comes out of it.

 

 

--------

 

I'd love to hear experiences from people who played their new and improved deathwing though to see if I should re-equip the sarges with twin claws.

 

Yep that's something I've been thinking on too. The claws obviously deliver more than the power sword at the expense of storm bolter shots each turn they replace. But those shots have been more than made up for by the longer-ranged 2 shot cyclone.. So:

 

1 x twin claws

1 x cyclone/th/ss

1 x th/ss

1 x sb/pf,

1 x sb/cf

 

is a good all round set up - while trying to maximise each model within his own specialist role (shooting or cc).

 

@Ezz: glad to see you back on the boards and chewing the DW cud.

 

Cheers

I

[RayJ]

If we base our squad builds on being used SOLELY in a 'pure' deathwing force, then the following setup is going to be ideal:

 

1 Sergeant

2 TH/SS

1 Chainfist

1 Cyclone

 

You have room to maneuver with whether the TH/SS carries a Cyclone or if the Cyclone goes on a PF/SB model. However, based on the fact that you are limiting yourself to not include a lot of options in the DA codex, you have to make your army capable of handling more situations with fewer tools. Most of your squads should take this setup. One or two can become specialized for a certain role. Here is what I would do then:

 

Command Squad and/or Melee Focused squad:

 

5 TH/SS

1 Cyclone

1 Apothecary

1 Standard

 

Note this setup is much more effective with the command squad than on a standard unit. To capitalize a non-command squad unit, I'd change it up to this:

 

4 TH/SS

1 Cyclone (TH/SS)

1 SB/CF

 

or this:

 

3 TH/SS

1 Cyclone (TH/SS)

2 Dual LCs

 

For a close fire support unit meant for taking on some heavier armors, I would go with this:

 

1 Sergeant

1 SB/CF

1 Assault Cannon/PF

2 TH/SS

 

Such a unit almost requires to enter play via deep strike due to short range. Riding in a crusader is viable, but their effectiveness is severely limited when the vehicle is immobilized or destroyed. They will be more adept at dealing with heavy armors than the cyclone squads, however, once they reach 24 inches.

 

In all cases, storm shields are necessary. With so few models on the table you need to be able to deal with close combat specialists. Not having these upgrades made DW fold under pressure in close combat. If you are not taking 2 storm shields per squad you are definitely asking to lose to close combat specialists. Running 1 more storm shield is going to be better for newer players as they learn about positioning for assaults and such. I'm not sure veterans need that extra layer of protection. I am currently running without it.

 

Isiah's squad loadout above is acceptable (good even), but I like the storm bolter shots from the sergeant when dealing with tyranids, dark eldar,, IG, and orks.

 

As for the rest of what to tun in 'pure DW', land raiders and dreadnoughts are almost a must. Without them your squads cannot get the weapons necessary to deal with AV 13 and 14 at range. Godhammer pattern Land Raiders and lascannon/missile fire support dreadnoughts will be what you are looking for.

 

You can instead saturate the ground with more terminators, but mechanized armies in heavy armor will not have much difficulty staying out of your reach.