A discussion about better equipment.

[Dosjetka]

I've been thinking a bit after reading an IA here in the Liber Astartes and I've been wondering if a new Chapter of Space Marines would necessarily recieve better equipment from the AdMech than other Chapters to help them in their role? To me, this doesn't make much sense as they have not 'earned' the right to get better equipment (in my mind, they would have to prove themselves many times over to the HLoT/AdMech to recieve any improved equipment, plus if they go traitor, they have an extra advantage) and why should they get better and cooler toys than other, older, more rewardable Chapters? Also, having older equipment would force them to find their own way to counter the threat, to be resourceful.

 

On the other hand, if it hels them crush a threat quicker, why not give them shiny new toys?

 

So, what do you think?

 

Ludovic

[NightrawenII]

I've been thinking a bit after reading an IA here in the Liber Astartes and I've been wondering if a new Chapter of Space Marines would necessarily recieve better equipment from the AdMech than other Chapters to help them in their role?

Well, given the Law of Universe #105: Ancient Technology = Teh Best Technology (typo intended). This is rather moot point. :D

 

To be honest this is hard question (read: I'm in lazy-mode right now.). You can justify such thing in universe, but more often than not this is straight road to MISS.

For me, the DIY is about making your Chapter cool and/or interesting. Of course, both of these things are very subjective, but making something better than anything else just stinks of awesome and awesome =/= cool or interesting. Just look at the Mattwards Ultramarines (or Blood Angels for that matter), everything about them is made of win, powered by uber, and fire white hot awesome. This is not interesting nor cool in my book, it is just dull and lame.

 

Therefore, to answer your question(s):

Q1: Could you give them shiny and fancy toys?

A1: Yes, you can create a plausible in-universe justification or explanation.

 

Q2: Is this correct method of writing for DIY?

A2: No, because awesome =/= cool or interesting.

[Ace Debonair]

So, what do you think?

 

I've always pictured the chapters being given whatever the local Forgeworld has for them.

 

If they're just nearing production of some Terminator armour, they might extend the deadline on making them long enough to crank out a dozen suits or so for the new chapter, for instance.

 

However, unless it's absoultely vital to the IA that you have those suits of terminator armour, it seems like a bit of a strange and random thing to bring up. :pinch:

 

Which admittedly didn't stop me talking about the Steel Dragons having lots of tanks back when I was writing them. ;)

And it doesn't stop the Red Lords from having more whirlwinds, but they accrued them slowly, over a long time.

[Dosjetka]

For me, the DIY is about making your Chapter cool and/or interesting. Of course, both of these things are very subjective, but making something better than anything else just stinks of awesome and awesome =/= cool or interesting. Just look at the Mattwards Ultramarines (or Blood Angels for that matter), everything about them is made of win, powered by uber, and fire white hot awesome. This is not interesting nor cool in my book, it is just dull and lame.

I agree. Though I would tend to say that the BA's are a *insert sarcastic tone here* bit more uber than the UM's.

 

And it doesn't stop the Red Lords from having more whirlwinds, but they accrued them slowly, over a long time.

Exactly what I think should happen. The equipment should be recieved slowly over time.

 

But the point about getting more Termie armour, just because they're making more is, to me, a bit far-fetched :)

 

Cheers for the input though <_<

 

Ludovic

[Ecritter]

I'd say it comes down to the belief that Ancient = Better as NightrawenII said. This may or may not be true. But if say, some new tech was created ... older Chapters may not want it since its not Ancient and therefore can't be better. So a new Chapter may get 'stuck' with better equipment in that instance.

[Marshal Renatus]

I think the issue that all but the most senior Liberites fall into, and I include myself in this trap, is that so much of the fiction and source documents that are out there makes the securing of different tech or STCs seem...well, kind of common. It seems like every week GW/FW comes out with a new piece of equipment (it's a company, believe me Brothers I understand the drive for profit) and some backstory about how this chapter found it and only a few use it. LR Ares, LR Helios, Stormraven, etc. Even down to the different patterns of equipment that are out there. Godwyn bolters are common, but then you have 6 other varieties that are possible. Land Raiders have 10 possible constructions. And so, yes, we as hobby enthusiasts say to ourselves, "Wouldn't it be cool if...". We often, rightly, get stomped for it during C&C, but this hobby is also about modeling. And if you're going to put the time, blood, sweat, tears, and public dismemberment of your ego/intelligence out there to craft an IA, then :) it I want a chapter that is fun to paint and play in order to go with that IA.

 

My point with all this is...I don't necessarily believe that the inclusion of this information inherently makes an IA subject to the rules of MISS. While it can certainly be overdone, the discussion of the equipment used could be a major theme in the chapter. Look at chapters like Aurora, Doom Legion, Fire Lords, etc. Much of what we know about them is based solely on their equipment. So if you wanted to do a DIY IA on any of them you'd have to include that information because it's almost the only canon that exists. So let's not crush people for trying to bring new STCs into the universe, or from claiming that they have more armored equipment than any three other chapters combined *cough, Aurora, cough*.

 

Work instead to get them to find the balance required to do it right. There are drawbacks to any piece of equipment carried into combat, trust me on this one, so help the writer balance it out. If it's a game of numbers, what is the Chapter missing because they've spent so much time accruing one type of equipment.

 

I get it. Those of you in here, far more than I, see many of the same ideas presented badly many times over. All the more reason to provide the writer the developed, well-researched advice we've come to rely on in this forum. Because one day, someone will do it right, and it will be really, really cool.

 

I'm off my soap box. ;)

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Ancient = better is due to the people who were making the older tech had a greater working knowledge of the technology used to create and maintain it. Sure the AdMech can design and create new toys, but that doesn't necissarily make it better since their knowledge of how things work and work with each other has diminished over time.

 

It depends what you want for your chapter. Realistically there would be more than a few forgeworlds that still produce older marks of armour and weapons for example, simply because they haven't been updated yet, or the AdMech hasn't bothered because there are chapters that are more than happy to receive the older suits.

 

There is a certain obvious limit to how old the tech has to be to still be better than the newer stuff, but that seems to be how it goes to me.

[Madwolf Shadowmane]

In the Grim Dark Innovation = Hersey. The Ad Mech stomps out new ideas like a Black Templar hates witches. That's why the STC's are so important and why much of the tech that is in use doesn't work at full efficiency. There for new equals in regards to tech.

 

Madwolf

[NightrawenII]

So let's not crush people for trying to bring new STCs into the universe, or from claiming that they have more armored equipment than any three other chapters combined *cough, Aurora, cough*.

This is fine and dandy, but the question was about better equipment. Yes, some Chapters have unique and different tools, but it doesn't necessary means that this stuff is better than the mainstream one.

 

For example, the Ares is not Phobos+1.

[Marshal Renatus]

NightrawenII: Much agreed. All I was trying to say, in my normally verbose manner, was that we should help writers make them unique and workabl without being cheesy/MISS/breaking the suspension of disbelief.

 

That's why the STC's are so important and why much of the tech that is in use doesn't work at full efficiency.

Madwolf: That's a great point that I don't think gets stressed enough. That's a very quick, easy sentence that could provide hard left and right limits on a DIY writer for inserting their newest creation. Like I said earlier...there is always a drawback to military machinery. The rule of thumb for "new tech" should always be "Good, Fast, Cheap...Pick Two."

[Dosjetka]

But if say, some new tech was created ... older Chapters may not want it since its not Ancient and therefore can't be better. So a new Chapter may get 'stuck' with better equipment in that instance.

Such as Mk 8 Power Armour. Which is proven to be better than the older Mks.

 

Marshal Renatus: I completely understand your viewpoint and I'm still partly there too myself. I think that the only piece of condensed advice I can give you is that when you look at any fluff about Space Marines in the 5th (maybe even 4th) Edition, take it with a pinch of salt and tone it down when using it.*

 

Ancient = better is due to the people who were making the older tech had a greater working knowledge of the technology used to create and maintain it. Sure the AdMech can design and create new toys, but that doesn't necissarily make it better since their knowledge of how things work and work with each other has diminished over time.

There is a certain obvious limit to how old the tech has to be to still be better than the newer stuff, but that seems to be how it goes to me.

That woud be my line of thought too.

 

Madwolf Shadowmane: I completely agree.

 

Yes, some Chapters have unique and different tools, but it doesn't necessary means that this stuff is better than the mainstream one.

Very true, but then it raises (for me at least) the question of what is mainstream?

 

-----------------------------

 

Cheers for all the replies, all very interesting and helpful :P

 

Ludovic

[Wysten]

Generally, I believe equipment for a starting chapter tends to be a mixture of the old and new (Mark 6, 7 and 8 Armour is an example of this. Mark 8 is superiour, but they continue to produce Mark 6 and Mark 7, the latter as mainstream armour) but can be tinkered with a little for the situations it is expected to encounter (if their primary role is to deal with Space Hulks, Pirates and possible Chaos Marine threat, I imagine they would provide more Terminator armour to deal with these close encounters, possibly 5/10 more suits then normal, but probably not any more then 30 suits considering the settings).

 

However, I don't believe that they pick their specialties upon constuction when it comes to weapons or armor. Unless they are assigned to at an area which equipment is completely impractical (Which is extremely rare, since Marine equipment is generally robust and the codex allows them to provide the correct layout for the situtation.) then they will get the same amount of equipment and won't reach a speciality until later in life. Space Marines are the best of the best, I imagine the adaptus would happy to provide each and every chapter with the equipment to be successful in their assigned duty and that what the Chapter starts with will provide everything the chapter could ever need, at least in the immediate future.

 

Hence I think that specialised chapters won't start off with overly specialised, but will request it's equipment later in it's lifespan, with the Techmarines serving as inside agents to see whether the equipment is being wielded in the correct manner. All marines are shocktroopers though, so I greatly doubt that the equipment would greatly vary greatly.

[NightrawenII]

Yes, some Chapters have unique and different tools, but it doesn't necessary means that this stuff is better than the mainstream one.

Very true, but then it raises (for me at least) the question of what is mainstream?

Land Raider Phobos is mainstream, all other variants are later additions. (If we discount the 2nd edition variants.)

Predator Destructor is mainstream.

Land Speeder Tempest is addition, so is Storm.

 

Generally, I believe equipment for a starting chapter tends to be a mixture of the old and new (Mark 6, 7 and 8 Armour is an example of this. Mark 8 is superiour, but they continue to produce Mark 6 and Mark 7, the latter as mainstream armour) but can be tinkered with a little for the situations it is expected to encounter (if their primary role is to deal with Space Hulks, Pirates and possible Chaos Marine threat, I imagine they would provide more Terminator armour to deal with these close encounters, possibly 5/10 more suits then normal, but probably not any more then 30 suits considering the settings).

A problem with logistic, the Chapters are created at the same time, so if you give one Chapter more suits, then others will get less of them. And given the fluff of TDA, you cannot increase the production over night.

 

Hence I think that specialised chapters won't start off with overly specialised, but will request it's equipment later in it's lifespan, with the Techmarines serving as inside agents to see whether the equipment is being wielded in the correct manner. All marines are shocktroopers though, so I greatly doubt that the equipment would greatly vary greatly.

Actually, this is the reason why is the gene-seed of Ultramarines (or successors) used the most. The new Chapter(s) is created as the codex, therefore universal and flexible in tactic and strategy.

[Ecritter]

Have a question, and this seemed like a good place and time for it. How many TDA suits does the average Chapter have anyway?

[Marshal Renatus]

This is solely my measuring stick for DIY TDA.

 

- The First founding chapters can all summon at least 100 suits, probably more.

- Second founding chapters are probably in the same boat. Exception is the BT who can probably field 3-400 suits, but they're spread out over the whole galaxy so you'd never see it in one place. (Though I do wish GW would have all 6,000 of them show up sometime. Heck of a show.)

 

- Third to Twelth founding could be anywhere from 60-100 suits, depending on what has happened to them over the years.

 

- Thirteenth to Twentieth founding, I assume 50-80 suits, the number decreasing as the founding gets more recent. I weigh the history of the Imperium during this time into the number as well, figuring less-established chapters in heavy combat take more losses and since everyone is fighting the AdMech can't focus solely on getting chapters replacement gear.

 

- Twentieth to Twenty-Sixth, no more than 70 suits. I assume each chapter gets 50 suits at the start, enough for half their veterans. The rest are Stern/Van-guard formations. For each century you've been around add 3-5 suits.

 

This is in no way backed by any sort of fluff. Just logic and past experience with military logistics.

[Ecritter]

Thanks for the info.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

- The First founding chapters can all summon at least 100 suits, probably more.

- Second founding chapters are probably in the same boat. Exception is the BT who can probably field 3-400 suits, but they're spread out over the whole galaxy so you'd never see it in one place. (Though I do wish GW would have all 6,000 of them show up sometime. Heck of a show.)

 

Fallacy, fallacy Will Robinson!

 

The Ultramarines can muster 73 suits of TDA.

 

The Dark Angels are the only Chapter who can muster the full 100.

 

Possibilities to coming close: Salamanders and Iron Hands.

 

To think that the Templars can field at least 50% Terminator armour is plainly ridiculous; size does not mean a greater quantity of something. For example the Aurora Chapter can muster an armoured force as big as any three Chapters combined but they are an exception, thus why they are famous.

[Ecritter]

I only asked cause I saw my Sons as fielding a mere 25 suits ... and only 3 or 4 Dreads.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I only asked cause I saw my Sons as fielding a mere 25 suits ... and only 3 or 4 Dreads.

 

It totally varies depending on how many you might be given to begin with, what you might be able to salvage, if they even get used and the Chapters relationship with the AdMech.

 

 

I'm of the opinion that 20/30 is a standard "first installment" when a Chapter is fully up and running, with an further allotments coming in 5's or 10's unless salvaged.

Chapters like the Iron Hands, I think, are more likely to be the first to recieve replacements - if they ask - because of the closeness of their relationship with the AdMech.

[Ecritter]

For me its just 5 TDA per company (Sons only have 5 companies), rest of vets are Sternguard/Vanguard.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

For me its just 5 TDA per company (Sons only have 5 companies), rest of vets are Sternguard/Vanguard.

 

I thought around 50 for my "Sons".. Approximately 5 per Warband, for the chosen warriors of the Chief - with a single exception who shall feature in a short story when I write it ;)

[Ecritter]

Well my 5 per company was just for vets, my other 'special' characters do have that option too. So in the end it would be a bit more then 25. I know for sure that my CM using a highly ornate TDA suit ... you've seen the pic.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Well my 5 per company was just for vets, my other 'special' characters do have that option too. So in the end it would be a bit more then 25. I know for sure that my CM using a highly ornate TDA suit ... you've seen the pic.

 

Must.. Not.. Dereail.. Thread... :P

[A_POINTED_STICK]

@ jaun Juarez

 

I'm going to disagree with you. The Dark Angels are unique in only using Terminator Armor on their Deathwing. Full suits should be the standard for a properly supplied chapter. Ultramarines lost almost 100 suits in the Tyrannical Wars. 73 is a mix of salvage and refitting but they're still working on replacements. Although in my opinion the Smurfs don't use it all that much and it's not a priority. They were more concerned with rebuilding the talent than the suits. They definitely had over 100 beforehand.

 

New chapters might not get any at launch. My third founding have accrued more than a full set because they don't use it. Mk6 is the preferred issue as it dates to the early days of the chapter. The entire first and company vets (and honor guard) could take it but they don't like it much. That's about 200+ suits in storage though at their fortress monastery...

[Marshal Renatus]

@ CJJ: Damn Gina, lol. I said it was a SWAG and said I had no fluff to back it, just logical reasoning. And I sincerely doubt that the IF and IH cannot field 100 Termies. And I'd have the same response for the Unforgiven. The UMs are unique because of the 'Nids, and the recent nature of it.

 

TDA is an expensive and rare piece of equipment, but that doesn't make it some sort of Holy Grail. The AdMech does produce it regularly and chapters do receive it at both their creation and throughout their service. It should be a slow build, but TDA is one of those things that makes the Space Marines the terrifying force they are. To place an unnecessary/unrealistic restriction on so key a piece of equipment, especially one that directly links with their comba doctrine, would be foolish for the Imperium.