shatter Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Anyone noticed that Blood Angels, being frequently a reserve roll based army, actually profit from having very expensive units (+rides)? Classic examples: SR + unit + IC(s) + dread LR + unit + IC(s) 10man VV + ICs(s) Looking at army list evaluation for various codexes here at the Bn'C, one can see "I wouldn't field that unit, too expensive, more bodies blah" is the prevailent comment for expensive units by long time players, yet many of us are actually getting massive success from these poo-pooed choices. Are we learning something? Or are we just lucky? Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 yet many of us are actually getting massive success from these poo-pooed choices. because of the style of game play of less xp players ? a unit that costs 500-600 pts and has a random entry [and in the case of BA is offten a hth one] so there is a 50% chance that you see it turn 3 , with a game based around objective taking[which a lot of the high cost units cant take ] and that has a good chance of ending in 5th turn , are not viable . Not against the top tier armies . I mean lets say you land on turn 2 your main unit costs 1/3 of points you spent on your army . it gets focused fired by the whole enemy army it dies. on turn 3 you have 2/3 of your army[support/scoring units etc] but your opponent has more . Now some people will say ok so I'll make a real death star army 2 uber units minimal troops everything supports those by DoA , pods etc. Lets say your lucky and you get both death stars down at the same time . one gets killed the other one charges and kills something , support units tar pit something too [or slow it down/drop it under 4-5 models unit size for meq armies etc] , and on your next turn your death star is still probably looking at around double the points and if even it does die the chance of win/lose is a luck thing now , not something based around strategy. But remember this happens when your lucky , when both death stars come on same turn . If they come in a wave they just get focused fired and die. the other problem with death star builds is that while most good codex can build a normal list [be it mecha , slogger , razorbuilds or some sort a mix] , when it comes to death stars there are better and worse ones. More while a normal list can deal with different armies by changing game play , a death star cant . and what does a death star build suppose to do when the opposing one is just plain better ? a normal list doesnt have such problems or problems like those are more rare. when only one person has to roll above avarge . in DS vs DS fight when one is better you have to roll above avarge [or you die next turn] and your opponent has to roll bad[or you die this turn]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2653844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 allot of people are addicted to math-hammer and what i call "paper lists". If something doesn't look perfect under math-hammer or looks bad on paper it's immediately discarded and leads to acdic comments from the armchair experts on internet forums. It's one of the reasons I don't post army lists anymore. My own personal experience with Ravens in reserve is pretty awesome, I learned hard lessons using Imperial guard valks and vendettas and put them to use with the ravens. In a way it's an advantage to turn a 6 turn game into essentialy a 4 or even 3 turn game. By the time my forces turn up the other guy is either split up holding objectives or is turtling and when the ravems show up I get a nice full salvo of Blood missles then go in for the kill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2653873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I agree.. sometimes what you, as an assault heavy army, want is for the game to be over in 3/4 games instead of 5/6. That way, you have your 3/4 games of insane slaughter in Close Combat but the enemy, especially if it is a slow moving army, doesn't have the time to react to where you place your forces and which objectives you take and contest. I feel similar as the jeske when it comes to partial deep striking, but when it comes to full out DoA deepstriking it just opens a whole new can of tactics and priorities that your more shooty friends just don't have the time to answer to in the small amount of turns your guys are on the field and in shooting range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2653892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 10man VV + ICs(s) Is there a BA IC with heroic intervention that I don't know of that would get put in reserve with VV? Or is the idea that you wouldn't want to put an IC with VVs when DSing the sort of poo-pooing you are talking about? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2653977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 10man VV + ICs(s) Is there a BA IC with heroic intervention that I don't know of that would get put in reserve with VV? Or is the idea that you wouldn't want to put an IC with VVs when DSing the sort of poo-pooing you are talking about? Err like dante (+ chaplain/priest/librarian/) + 10 man? It doesn't have to be Dante, but he does make good use of a priest. It kinda runs like Dante (+ chaplain/priest/librarian) + 5 customised (3+) sanguard + 5 VV but on one reserve roll you combat squad. It, as a reserve roll, gets pricey. There is points inefficiency in a crude sense as HI 'cost' is lost on the 5 with Dante(/whomever) but IMO, the total synergy and timing value is worth more. An amusing further synergy is (VV) within a nipplewing with the Sanguinor. 2 hammers on the sgt. Up to 6x WS5 S8 attacks. He's like the budget opposite of Lemartes. But... I think many people would think a libby mandatory for such a list. Anyway, this isn't the point. Maybe I came on too strong. A little challenging maybe. Err, I'm asking if there is a change in the accepted average price spent on reserve rolls. There is pressure in the form of critique (egg baskets) here, I've noted, in opposition. Do others feel this is true? If so, how so? Is it DoA? Is it the capabilities of the SR? Is it BA in 5e? thoughts? BTW, what happened to Morticon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 10man VV + ICs(s) Is there a BA IC with heroic intervention that I don't know of that would get put in reserve with VV? Or is the idea that you wouldn't want to put an IC with VVs when DSing the sort of poo-pooing you are talking about? Err like dante (+ chaplain/priest/librarian/) + 10 man? It doesn't have to be Dante, but he does make good use of a priest. I think what Leksington is getting at here is that unless the IC also has Heroic Intervention, then the VV themselves loose that rule. I'm not a BA player, so feel free to point and laugh if i'm wrong :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I think DOA helps mitigate the idea of having so many points in reserve, as each unit is reserve is 75% likely to appear on turn 2. Makes it easier to keep so much in reserve, including some very expensive units. I haven't tried a pure DOA list yet, but I think you might be right shatter. I wouldn't even consider such a list without DOA's reserve reroll, but with it the idea of having a few large units with ICs in reserve isn't too scary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 5ed lends itself well to small elite armies. DoA has it all right now. It will be interesting to see how well DoA is doing 2-3 years from now. G :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Is there a BA IC with heroic intervention that I don't know of that would get put in reserve with VV? Or is the idea that you wouldn't want to put an IC with VVs when DSing the sort of poo-pooing you are talking about? Err like dante (+ chaplain/priest/librarian/) + 10 man? It doesn't have to be Dante, but he does make good use of a priest. It kinda runs like Dante (+ chaplain/priest/librarian) + 5 customised (3+) sanguard + 5 VV but on one reserve roll you combat squad. It, as a reserve roll, gets pricey. There is points inefficiency in a crude sense as HI 'cost' is lost on the 5 with Dante(/whomever) but IMO, the total synergy and timing value is worth more. Yes, that is the sort of thing I'd frown on. :D First off, how does that Deep Strike resolve considering the recent FAQ update regarding combat squadding while reserved? I think you are going to run into all sorts of arguments about it: -Whether you can combat squad at all. -If you can combat squad, can the 2 squads deploy in different areas? -If they can't deploy in 2 different areas, I assume they will all use Dante's tactical precision? If that happens, no one is going to let you use Heroic Intervention on 5 of your VV. Sounds like 3-4 huge arguments waiting to happen. ;) Ignoring rule disagreements: Having the VV combat squad so only 5 of them lose HI makes for an intersting sortie (I am imagining half open up a vehicle, the other half assault its contents), but I wouldn't do it. My math has it as a cost of ~37.5 points to make sure two squads come down on the same turn. -In a DoA army I probably want my units on the table asap, so there is no real benefit to combining my reserve rolls. -If this unit is landing alone, Dante (or other HQ) + SP +5 VVs are in a neat little exposed ball, ready for your enemy to dump templates on. Also you are splitting a lot of your since this unit is so expensive. I worry about how the rest of your army is doing while short those ~500 points for the first couple of turns. So, poo-poo on that idea. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 emm ya.. suree... To be honest i wouldt want to run any of those unit combos, too much of a too many eggs in one basket. i also dont like the storm raven... fuguly... but ye i can see that sometimes those units would be underestimated and can be used. everyone who has used a raider fears melta. anyone who has no melta fears a land raider... in the right situations and when used well any of our units can far exceed their expections. ive seen a captain kill my baal. if it had been a chaplin he wouldnt have had points for an infernus... :lol: our codex fails to have any really bad choices unlike some others... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judaz Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 First off, how does that Deep Strike resolve considering the recent FAQ update regarding combat squadding while reserved? Is that old argument still alive? I thought it was killed when reading was discovered? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222076-reserves-and-point-costs/#findComment-2654755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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