BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hey guys I thought I'd share this with you all: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/40k...alysis-and.html Cheers. G <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 So brothers Does this pass the smell test? :P G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The article misses many key points, most of which are pointed out in the comments. His mathhammer fails, his examples are weak (what Dev squad carries ONE missile launcher?), and his main long-term strategy seems to be "Hope your enemies don't carry anything higher than S8." Overall, like all BoLS articles, it shows a weak grasp of strategy and a reliance on fallacy-riddled faulty logic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The article is Black Orange's own. Unfortunately I agree with Decoy's comments Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 That is fine - a good number of people seem to be agreeing on the other hand. As pointed by others if you extrapolate on the mathhammer it is still in favor of the Stormraven. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The article misses many key points, most of which are pointed out in the comments. His mathhammer fails, his examples are weak (what Dev squad carries ONE missile launcher?), and his main long-term strategy seems to be "Hope your enemies don't carry anything higher than S8." Overall, like all BoLS articles, it shows a weak grasp of strategy and a reliance on fallacy-riddled faulty logic. Just to point out there's weak math on the other side, too. While I overall appreciate BOs experience, and unlike many others, he's actually used them, I'd like a few more tactics than simply here's what makes the SR good and counters to the arguments given against it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parcival Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 BO - while I thought the article on the SR to be an interesting read, I found the piece about your HG the most interesting as I had a thread on B&C about what to put into a SR two weeks ago. Could you please elaborate in full detail on how you equip them? I have twice the HG from the previous metal BA HG boxed set, so I have to redo my HG anyway, even if it's just for replacing the Techmarine. Now I think about turning them into a choppy HG to go with the SR with a diversity of Powerweapons with SS to create wound allocation groups. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 I will post in detail this evening about my Epistolary and his Honor Guard. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 After studying the codex for a long period of time coupled with lots and lots of playtesting versus Tyranids, Space Wolves, IG and other hard armies I found that I could combine all the best close combat attributes of the new Blood Angels by way of the Epistolary and Honor Guard. The Epistolary can cast two psychic powers per turn. The Sanguine Sword grants S10 which is something new for close combat with the exception of dreadnaughts. S10 with WS5 is very powerful versus TWC and warbosses amongst other things. The Honor Guard is the most customizable unit in our codex so I wanted to combine that with the Epistolary to take full advantage of Unleash Rage. By combining the two you have a unit that is stronger in close combat than Mephiston and is more resilient due to the use of stormshields. If you've fought against TWC with stormshields then you know just how nasty they can be. The Epistolary also has a Ld10 psychic hood which is yet another boon. Here is how I kit my choppy Honor Guard: - jump packs, Chapter Banner * Novitiate * Honor Guard #1: lightning claw & stormshield * Honor Guard #2: lightning claw & stormshield * Honor Guard #3: pair of lightning claws * Honor Guard #4: thunderhammer & stormshield So I have six jump infantry models which is the maximum limit for the Stormraven plus I also attach a Furioso with extra armor, a pair of Bloodfists and a heavy flamer. The Novitiate can typically grant Furious Charge to the dreadnaught which coupled with it's WS6 is bad news for TWC, my number one nemesis. The Epistolary and the Honor Guard are benefitting from Furious Charge, Feel No Pain and preferred enemy. The high number of lightning claw attacks means that half the combined unit is rerolling both hits and wounds, ignoring armor saves. This combination takes advantage of everything our codex has to offer in the assault phase and not much can stand up to it. By putting the unit with the dreadnaught in a Stormraven I can place them where I want them to best attack my opponent. As I said the Honor Guard is our most customizable unit - you can only take a maximum of five so equipping them with jump packs does not diminish the total number I can embark in the Stormraven. Once they have disembarked they are still highly mobile due to the jump packs and can start a fresh assault each turn assuming they have destroyed the last unit they engaged in close combat. I would rather destroy an enemy unit on the charge and then rely upon the stormshields and FNP to soak wounds during the following enemy shooting phase. My typical approach to most any game is to start the Stormraven in reserve and go second. If I have to go first then I can start the Stormraven on the table and either alpha strike with the Blood Strike missiles or move flat-out for the 4++ cover save then launch an assault the second turn. What I have found is this approach is very effective whether my opponents castle their army, spread out to refuse a flank or start in reserve. You should most always have the advantage when starting in reserve with a DoA army since we can reroll our failed reserves for our jump infantry units - it's a very combination with the Stormraven for the reasons given. As I stated in the BoLS article it's a fallacy for people to say that every gun will be trained upon the Stormraven. Vanguard vets can eliminate or tie up an enemy unit the turn they arrive via deep strike plus the deep strking assault squads should also be able to eliminate some threats to the Stormraven and it's cargo. It is what it is G :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 First off, there is a lot of good in your article. So don't take it badly if I seem incredibly hard on you. -Re: Misconception #1 "Every gun in your opponent's army will be pointed at the Stormraven, it won't last one turn so why bother ??" You didn't answer why every gun in the opponent's army wouldn't be on the Storm Raven. You explained why 1 gun probably wouldn't kill it. Any army worth it salt is going to have more than just 1 vehicle killer. If you are going the math-hammer route, it might have been more informative to compare an equal number of points trying to kill it. What will 215 points worth of Devastators with rocket launchers going to do to it? What are the chances that they immobilize or destroy the SR in 1 turn. You might also want to put in the chances of surviving shooting from equal vehicle points from a common imperial leaf blower list. -Re: Misconception #2 "The Stormraven is a huge point-sink. Why would anyone bother putting a jump troop inside." You didn't really explain why the Stormraven isn't a huge point sink when being used as a transport. In this section you put together a nice assault unit, but you didn't explain why it makes sense to put that unit with in a transport. You spend 215 on the transport and 100+ on jump packs, but you didn't explain why 1 of those expenditures wasn't redundant. You never explained why or when it was smarter to have the unit in the SR rather than to deepstrike them. Maybe you could go over how many shots the SR is going to get in 2 turns while delivering cargo. Compare that to what you would get if you weren't delivering cargo. Show that the difference between the two isn't significant enough to keep someone from using it as a transport. -Overall: You should avoid statements like "I use," "I like to run," "I also have." Just give us an example of a unit or configuration and tell us why it is good and how it fits your argument. That you use or don't use something isn't informative. Good stuff in your article, I just think you could have either organized it better, or done a better job of addressing the misconceptions you laid out. Edit: Again, I don't want you to take my criticism the wrong way. I am not arguing that any of your points were inherently wrong, and I really gained a lot from battle reports using the SR you posted a couple months ago. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soups Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hmm, It is a good tactical article, and raises some good advice for people who are just running the Stormraven. I would have liked to see some tactical stratagems outside of the DoA lists, though. As it is with any meta you play with, I only can really run my DoA list in the larger costed games of the high side of 1850. Once you get to that point side, I see a lot more missile or dark lance spam. I am currently running a Stormraven in a 1500 setting for an upcoming tournament, where strength 8 is the highest you will realistically see outside of Tau, or the odd vindicator. The storm raven makes a good addition to any BA army that is thinking of doing the Razorspam tactic. You might sacrifice another Las/Auto cannon predator, but you gain an excellent delivery system for you hard-hitting unit to keep you assault squad dudes alive. You might have taken you first topic about survivability more pragmatically, but each player has one unit they are currently in love with. Good article, and thanks for the honor guard clarification. You might talk to big red and get a redpost edit for your honor guard in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'd like to see you run the numbers on a single StormRaven surviving a turn vs 1500pts of Leafblower Guard or the Space Wolves with 4 Lascannon Razorbacks and 2 Long Fangs units with 6 Missiles and 4 Lascannons between them, not including Living Lightning. It is very....rose tinted. Which is fair enough as it is effectively promoting how you choose to use your vehicle, but it is certainly far from a tactical thesis or analysis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zid Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Was aight. Like sama said, it probably wouldn't last very long against most razor-spam style lists, but then again, its to be expected. Honestly, I like the raven most because if it does survive past T2 it typically lasts the entire game as your opponent has much more pressing issues to attend to. It all depends eather your dice are with or against you lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Not really. The article is based upon lots of competitive tourney experience. If you are going to be a proverbial stick in the mud then obviously you can't wake a man whose not sleeping. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'd like to see you run the numbers on a single StormRaven surviving a turn vs 1500pts of Leafblower Guard or the Space Wolves with 4 Lascannon Razorbacks and 2 Long Fangs units with 6 Missiles and 4 Lascannons between them, not including Living Lightning. It is very....rose tinted. Which is fair enough as it is effectively promoting how you choose to use your vehicle, but it is certainly far from a tactical thesis or analysis. That Sw list wouldn't give my angels mug trouble. Tie up the longfangs with VV and nuke the razorbacks with he raven's any surviving armour gets taken care of by 3 RAS with dual melts... And now my opponent has 30+ FC/FNP RAS on his doorstep.... He's has other problems than the ravens to worry about.... He'll if the longfangs can't be reaches them the ravens and VV swap targets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 - Leksington - Misconception #1 "Every gun in your opponent's army will be pointed at the Stormraven, it won't last one turn so why bother ??" You didn't answer why every gun in the opponent's army wouldn't be on the Storm Raven. The way I play the Stormraven is held in reserve so that your VV and other jump infantry units can neutralize the major threats. That's a basic tenet of mine and it has worked well for me. Enemy units destroyed or locked up with VV and other enemy units that have to deal with the threat of your other units have to focus on the immediate threats first. So as I said if you play it right then it's just not possible for every enemy unit with a gun to shoot the Stormraven. This article is just one in a series. Previous articles have focused on tactics to eliminate the threats to the Stormraven. You might want to read them. You explained why 1 gun probably wouldn't kill it. Any army worth it salt is going to have more than just 1 vehicle killer. If you are going the math-hammer route, it might have been more informative to compare an equal number of points trying to kill it. What will 215 points worth of Devastators with rocket launchers going to do to it? What are the chances that they immobilize or destroy the SR in 1 turn. You might also want to put in the chances of surviving shooting from equal vehicle points from a common imperial leaf blower list. The example using one Dev firing a rocket is there to illustrate why massed enemy firepower typically requires a high volume of shots to bring down the skimmer. You can multiply the odds by the number of rockets in the army that have LOS and are not tied up with your squads. Using three squads of missile Long Fangs as a typical example of what to expect assume that one is destroyed by your VV and another is depleted by an alpha strike from the Stormraven firing a salvo of BS missiles and possibly a twin linked lascannon into a second squad of missile Long Fangs. That leaves one full squad of missile Long Fangs which can be outranged by judicious placement of the SR when bringing it onto the table when it arrives. IG requires a somewhat different approach as your main threats will typically be Vendettas firing their lascannons. Ive found that ordnance is not that effective as a major deterrent due to scatter. Still the same type of approach outlined above can work as a solid defense. Misconception #2 "The Stormraven is a huge point-sink. Why would anyone bother putting a jump troop inside." You didn't really explain why the Stormraven isn't a huge point sink when being used as a transport. In this section you put together a nice assault unit, but you didn't explain why it makes sense to put that unit with in a transport. You spend 215 on the transport and 100+ on jump packs, but you didn't explain why 1 of those expenditures wasn't redundant. You never explained why or when it was smarter to have the unit in the SR rather than to deepstrike them. I never said the Stormraven is not a big investment point wise - obviously it is but that alone coupled with the cost of the embarked units is not sufficient reason not to do so. Here is what I actually said in this regard: I like to run an Epistolary (Sword/Rage) with a choppy Honor Guard. They've all got jump packs and the Chapter Banner for the +1 attack. To me they are the ultimate Blood Angels deathstar - furious charge, FNP, reroll hits all the time and the 3++ save (i.e., stormshields on three of the Honor Guard). I also have a Furioso with a pair of Bloodfists onboard. Together they can destroy anything in close combat including the mighty Thunderwolf cavalry. By running them in the Stormraven I can quickly move them and place them in the best position to spearhead my assaults. The rest of the army plays a very vital role coming in from reserve via deepstrike and first eliminating threats to the Stormraven. As I've shown it actually requires a high volume of shots on average to drop the flier so by taking out shooty enemy units early in the game my Stormraven has much more freedom to move about the battlefield. The Librarian and his Honor Guard can quickly cover open ground once they disembark since they have jump packs and stay in the fight. A unit such as assault terminators on the other hand are very slow once they disembark; versus a wise opponent they will engage one or two units max then they are out of the fight. So by fielding an uber assault jump unit in the Stornraven paired with a close combat dreadnaught you have a fast unit you can insert where needed the most and they can still quickly reach other enemy units once they've disembarked. Being able to field a dreadnaught in the Stormraven has brought another dimension to the game - it's the best delivery system for the walker and ensures they will reach close combat untouched. Maybe you could go over how many shots the SR is going to get in 2 turns while delivering cargo. Compare that to what you would get if you weren't delivering cargo. Show that the difference between the two isn't significant enough to keep someone from using it as a transport. The purpose of the article is to show the readers that a Stormraven is best utilized in multiple roles. For example who takes a landraider and simply uses it to fire it's guns? Overall: You should avoid statements like "I use," "I like to run," "I also have." Just give us an example of a unit or configuration and tell us why it is good and how it fits your argument. That you use or don't use something isn't informative. See the above comments and I suggest if you want to learn more about how a Stormraven is used with a DoA army then read my other articles posted on BoLS. There are links to them provided at the end of this article. I've found that those people following along throughout the entire series get the overall gist and there are even a few who have come over to my side of the discussions. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Powers Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Black Orange, what are you doing here? You need to be writing the next installment of Blood Strike. Hop to it!!! ;) please? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Powers Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Also, that Honor Guard build you posted is... nasty. I like it! I might swap some storm shields for more lightning claws, but to each his own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Well, overall i like your article BO.Its concise and gives a very good indication of unit strengths and possible uses rather then a blow by blow account of what to do. Id like to see more articles like this, and consider your HG idea stolen, ive just been running anti MEQ/Armour DES squads (mostly plas) up until now, sometimes with a rec.Ive had great results. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Similar to the build I use but I swap out the dual claws for a champ and don't bother with a SS on the hammer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2654995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'd like to see you run the numbers on a single StormRaven surviving a turn vs 1500pts of Leafblower Guard or the Space Wolves with 4 Lascannon Razorbacks and 2 Long Fangs units with 6 Missiles and 4 Lascannons between them, not including Living Lightning. It is very....rose tinted. Which is fair enough as it is effectively promoting how you choose to use your vehicle, but it is certainly far from a tactical thesis or analysis. That Sw list wouldn't give my angels mug trouble. Tie up the longfangs with VV and nuke the razorbacks with he raven's any surviving armour gets taken care of by 3 RAS with dual melts... And now my opponent has 30+ FC/FNP RAS on his doorstep.... He's has other problems than the ravens to worry about.... He'll if the longfangs can't be reaches them the ravens and VV swap targets. The odds of you being able to get the charge off with both your combat squads of VV on both units of Long Fangs, getting the RAS with Meltaguns within 6" of 3 Razorbacks and getting the StormRaven come in after your VV and RAS... This is the major issue with the StormRaven... for me it is like one of those Skaven GutterRunners in Blood Bowl with Long Legs and Leap. Sure it can score a touchdown in one turn, but it is entirely dependent on making a series of fortuitous dice rolls one after the other. The odds are not in your favour. However running 2 of them at 2000pts with the 10 man VV squad running interference and the RAS and 4Meltagun HonourGuard squad on anti-tank duty. Possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2655004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Take out pie plates and practice with those. Your raven doesn't have to come in after with DOA almost everything will come in turn 2 and the ravens just have to show up the same turn. I'vebeen doing this since our new codex and believe me it almost cheating. At best you turn the fight into a 1500 bs 750 fight or better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2655017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 - Leksington - I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't asking you questions. I was commenting on the shortcomings of the article, and was suggesting things that could have made it better. You organized your article around a couple of statements and labeled them 'misconceptions.' The reader is going to expect the following content to explain why those things are misconceptions. You put the reader in a weird position when you suggest you are going to explain away something and then you only go half way. If you are not going to explain the misconception, or you expect the reader to know that you explained it in a previous publication, then you shouldn't use those 'misconceptions' to organize your article. You are the one who did the SG write up, weren't you? In the title you did something similar. You wrote something to the effect of 'in the end, are they rubbish or not?' I got to the end and thought, "so what was the verdict?" When you pose the question in the title, you are creating the expectation that you will provide the answer. I recognize that you probably wanted the reader to make that determination on their own (based on the information you gave them), but you at least have to 'hang a lantern' on that fact. Something as simple as throwing a "so what do you think?" making it clear that they are the ones supposed to answer the question. Creating expectation, and then satisfying that expectation is a decent writing technique. Creating expectation and then leaving the reader hanging will leave the reader feeling cheap and unsatisfied. I'm saying that in your SR article you created an expectation and then did not deliver. In my last post I was suggesting a way you could have better addressed the misconceptions you presented. But to be honest, you probably should have left the misconceptions out of the article entirely. I think they got in the way of the article you were really trying to write: "How I run my Stormraven, and why it works." I hope this was helpful or informative in some way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2655020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parcival Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 BO, thanks for the detailed list. :rolleyes: However, (1) which model gets to carry the company banner? How does that work ruleswise and how do you model the miniature with all the equipment and the banner on top of it? (2) Why doesn't everybody have a SS except the SP? Are three enough for most situations? (3) What's a TWC? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2655067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 personally i run the banner on the TH hes the last to get allocated. twc is thunder wolf cavalry Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222082-bols-stormraven-tactical-article/#findComment-2655084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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