Calth discussion

[Marshal Rohr]

Be careful with what you interpret as truth, Legatus. For everyone seeing the Ultramarines as best, theres a million more who see them as absorbing the II and XI Legion...

 

 

Due to taking a thread way off topic, these posts have been split off into their own thread.

[Trel]

I had never considered that the purged Legions were absorbed into the others. I realize it was implied, but I can't imagine that if they were that problematic, they wouldn't have just been put to the torch.

 

They were considering purging the Thousand Sons and considering the rampant Flesh-changing, I don't think any other Primarch would have felt great about accepting those misfits into the gene-seed pool.

 

Emperor: "Primarch of the II Legion, it's not working out. I'll send your brother Leman over to collect your and your Legion's security badges, just sit tight on your homeworld. No...no, I'm not mad at you."

[Legatus]

Be careful with what you interpret as truth, Legatus. For everyone seeing the Ultramarines as best, theres a million more who see them as absorbing the II and XI Legion...

Which I believe A D-B is to blame for. So in a way he could make up for that by doing something for their cred. :wub:

 

 

I had never considered that the purged Legions were absorbed into the others. I realize it was implied, but I can't imagine that if they were that problematic, they wouldn't have just been put to the torch.

It is not really implied at all. That was just a Word Bearer musing why two of the Legions mysteriously disappeared and the Ultramarines grew in size. He put two and two together. And got thirty nine. Just like how Astelan figured that the reason why there were no records of the Dark Angels fighting in the defense of the Imperial Palace was obviously that they deliberately were not participating. Those are called" non sequiturs".

[Hellios]

The Emperor had initially called the 13th Legion "The only ones I got right", but Guilliman in his modesty chose to rename them to "Ultramarines". :D

 

The 1st will admit the emperor made them too awesome.

[A D-B]

Be careful with what you interpret as truth, Legatus. For everyone seeing the Ultramarines as best, theres a million more who see them as absorbing the II and XI Legion...

Which I believe A D-B is to blame for. So in a way he could make up for that by doing something for their cred. :P

 

Calth will do wonders for their cred:

 

Word Bearers show up, massively outnumbered.

Word Bearer secret weapon already blown up by Ultramarines.

Word Bearers attack anyway.

Word Bearers lose.

Word Bearers run away.

Ultramarines kick back, listening to "Damn it Feels Good to be Gangsta".

Author of Word Bearer Calth novel hated by small subsection of Chaps players forever, for not retconning a victory.

[Trel]

This is why Chaos isn't taken seriously. :P

 

In another few millennia it will be referred to as the "Horus Human Resources Diasgreement".

[A D-B]

This is why Chaos isn't taken seriously. :D

 

In another few millennia it will be referred to as the "Horus Human Resources Diasgreement".

 

I feel another creeping burn to make something canon.

[Noctus Cornix]

I feel another creeping burn to make something canon.

 

 

Easy boy, easy.

Wouldn't want to do anything we're going to regret now, would we? :D

[Simonius]

I've had this sudden vision of the Emperor in his lab all "Blue Peter" style, trying to make a space marine live to the studio audience (sticky back plastic an' all) - which frankly looks pants. Then he pulls out the Ultramarine model from under the desk - which looks perfect - and utters the immortal "Here's one I made earlier".

[Legatus]

Word Bearers show up, massively outnumbered.

Word Bearer secret weapon already blown up by Ultramarines.

Word Bearers attack anyway.

The Word Bearers did manage to create favourable conditions when they surprise attacked the Ultramarine fleet and then landed massive numbers of Word Bearers and cultists on Calth. There was only a part of the Ultramarines Legion on Calth's surface, so the Word Bearers had created a situation where they outnumbered the Ultramarines on the ground and in space. Both the Index Astartes and the Collected Visions allude to this. Lorgar had been quite confident that he could defeat and entirely wipe out the Ultramarines Legion, and it might even have worked. While Kor Phaeron was leading the ground attack on Calth, Lorgar and Guilliman were duelling it out with their respective fleets. In both theatres the Ultramarines were outnumbered.

[A D-B]

Word Bearers show up, massively outnumbered.

Word Bearer secret weapon already blown up by Ultramarines.

Word Bearers attack anyway.

The Word Bearers did manage to create favourable conditions when they surprise attacked the Ultramarine fleet and then landed massive numbers of Word Bearers and cultists on Calth. There was only a part of the Ultramarines Legion on Calth's surface, so the Word Bearers had created a situation where they outnumbered the Ultramarines on the ground and in space. Both the Index Astartes and the Collected Visions allude to this. Lorgar had been quite confident that he could defeat and entirely wipe out the Ultramarines Legion, and it might even have worked. While Kor Phaeron was leading the ground attack on Calth, Lorgar and Guilliman were duelling it out with their respective fleets. In both theatres the Ultramarines were outnumbered.

 

I know they did okay, really. But in the IA article, Lorgar is listed as heading to Terra with some of the Legion, while Kor Phaeron led the Calth assault. So in all seriousness, it's going to require some interesting tricks to make the WeeBees look good in that one. They attack a force that vastly outnumbers them, on that force's own home turf, and while they have the advantage of surprise, they don't have their primarch, and the Ultramarines do.

 

Really, it could be seen as a bit of a stupid plan.

[Legatus]

Ah, yes, there seems to be a discrepancy between the Index Astartes article and the Collected Visions. No surprise there. But to be fair, the Word Bearers Index Astartes also does not mention Guilliman at all. Instead, it names Ultramarines Captain Ventanus (not even a Chapter Master, which is odd) as having led the Ultramarines. Both Primarchs were only really introduced by the Collected Visions account.

But I think in both accounts the Word Bearers have a gazillion Cultists and a hojillion daemons with them, so perhaps that even things out a bit more. They were still said to have outnumbered the Ultramarines on the ground, though.

 

I assume the Word Bearers were striking when only a small part of the Ultramarines was stationed on Calth, and their superior fleet then prevented the Ultramarine ships from reinforcing their ground forces, confining the rest of the Ultramarines Legion to their ships, where they would be ineffective.

Both articles give the impression that the Word Bearers could have succeeded and could have potentially overrun the defenders on Calth, but both articles state that the Word Bearers had underestimated the Ultramarines' tenacity (while the Collected Visions account also adds Guilliman's strategic brilliance as a second reason for why they failed, as he was able to overcome the numerical superior fleet all while coordinating the efforts of the small resitance pockets on Calth).

[A D-B]

Ah, yes, there seems to be a discrepancy between the Index Astartes article and the Collected Visions. No surprise there. But to be fair, the Word Bearers Index Astartes also does not mention Guilliman at all. Instead, it names Ultramarines Captain Ventanus (not even a Chapter Master, which is odd) as having led the Ultramarines. Both Primarchs were only really introduced by the Collected Visions account.

But I think in both accounts the Word Bearers have a gazillion Cultists and a hojillion daemons with them, so perhaps that even things out a bit more. They were still said to have outnumbered the Ultramarines on the ground, though.

 

I assume the Word Bearers were striking when only a small part of the Ultramarines was stationed on Calth, and their superior fleet then prevented the Ultramarine ships from reinforcing their ground forces, confining the rest of the Ultramarines Legion to their ships, where they would be ineffective.

Both articles give the impression that the Word Bearers could have succeeded and could have potentially overrun the defenders on Calth, but both articles state that the Word Bearers had underestimated the Ultramarines' tenacity (while the Collected Visions account also adds Guilliman's strategic brilliance as a second reason for why they failed, as he was able to overcome the numerical superior fleet all while coordinating the efforts of the small resitance pockets on Calth).

 

What would life be, without conflicting/overlapping source info? Well, it'd be easier, but... whatever.

 

This is something currently doing the rounds in HH group emails, among many other things. (Just for the record, please no one assume Calth is coming soon or whatever - we're always talking about 800 things at once). One of the points I raised only last week was about evening up the odds for the Word Bearers, one possibility of which would, naturally, be the judicious application of daemons. Seems obvious, but it's one of those things where it's not exactly stated big and bold in the source material, so I hesitate to change things up unless necessary. But in this case, it's more a matter of the previous source material being a vague overview, so... Yeah, I reckon daemons will be one of the ways the Word Bearers even up the odds.

[greatcrusade08]

ooh feels kinda dirty gettting insider info on the workings of the HH series.. A-D-B your a very bad man.. ;)

 

joking aside i await the release of any new ultras books with relish, although i liked the mcneill books i constantly crave more..

btw the new HH book Garro involves ultras vs orks doesnt it? im gunna have to order that.

 

it makes me sad that the 'ultrahaters' have any negative effects on the authors.. it would be great to see some tongue in cheek references to ultras awesomeness, something A-D-B could pull off.

but many would take it seriously..

very sad indeed :(

[Legatus]

One of the points I raised only last week was about evening up the odds for the Word Bearers, one possibility of which would, naturally, be the judicious application of daemons. Seems obvious, but it's one of those things where it's not exactly stated big and bold in the source material, so I hesitate to change things up unless necessary.

Both the Index Astartes and the Collected Visions mention daemonic hordes:

 

"The war upon Calth was devastating and horrific. Ancient codes of warfare and martial conduct were broken and set aside by the Word Bearers as all manners of death and destruction was unleashed. The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops."

- Index Astartes Word Bearers

 

"Using vast hordes of Chaos Cultists as human shields, the Word bearers were able to protect themselves from any significant Ultramarines counter attack. Kor Phaeron then deployed the war machines of the Dark Mechanicus as battering rams to punch through the defensive lines of the loyalists. Packs of screaming daemons followed up into any breaks in the lines, inflicting terrible carnage on the defenders within."

- Horus Heresy - Collected Visions

 

They are not held up as the main reason for why the Word Bearer attack was initially so effective, but they were part of the entire Word Bearers, Cultists, Dark Mechanicus and Daemon effort. The main reason for why the attack was so effective initially was still that it cought the Ultramarines completely off guard, in my opinion, and the Word Bearers could potentially have overpowered the surprised opponent, had the Ultramarines not been able to consolidate their forces sooner and more effectively than the Word Bearers had expected.

Edit: Which I think shows the strength of the methodical Ultramarines Legion. A different, less organised Legion might have been left reeling for a bit longer, giving the Word Bearers the opportunity to finish them off. But the Ultramarines were keeping a calm head and were quickly assessing and adapting to the situation and were then able to counter it.

[A D-B]

One of the points I raised only last week was about evening up the odds for the Word Bearers, one possibility of which would, naturally, be the judicious application of daemons. Seems obvious, but it's one of those things where it's not exactly stated big and bold in the source material, so I hesitate to change things up unless necessary.

Both the Index Astartes and the Collected Visions mention daemonic hordes:

 

"The war upon Calth was devastating and horrific. Ancient codes of warfare and martial conduct were broken and set aside by the Word Bearers as all manners of death and destruction was unleashed. The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops."

- Index Astartes Word Bearers

 

"Using vast hordes of Chaos Cultists as human shields, the Word bearers were able to protect themselves from any significant Ultramarines counter attack. Kor Phaeron then deployed the war machines of the Dark Mechanicus as battering rams to punch through the defensive lines of the loyalists. Packs of screaming daemons followed up into any breaks in the lines, inflicting terrible carnage on the defenders within."

- Horus Heresy - Collected Visions

 

They are not held up as the main reason for why the Word Bearer attack was initially so effective, but they were part of the entire Word Bearers, Cultists, Dark Mechanicus and Daemon effort. The main reason for why the attack was so effective initially was still that it cought the Ultramarines completely off guard, in my opinion, and the Word Bearers could potentially have overpowered the surprised opponent, had the Ultramarines not been able to consolidate their forces sooner and more effectively than the Word Bearers had expected.

 

Yeah, sorry, my bad for being unspecific. The current debate (such as it is, over email) is along the lines of how to introduce the daemons, to what degree, and on what scale. Like, are they hanging out in ships' holds, whining about Dreadclaw drop pod rules? Are they a result of the Word Bearers piledriving through the Ultramarines' orbital fleet, landing a squillion troops, and summoning them on the surface from their own guys? Are they the result of all that, and then summoning them from the sacrifice of Calth's populace? And so on.

 

That stuff's not explicitly stated, so I'm trying to tread carefully in regards to the source material, if you get me. Working out the hows and whys, etc. It's a surprisingly mega planning process, and I want to exercise a healthy dose of caution. This needs to be realistic (well, y'know what I mean...) or it'll come across as a tacky splatter of LOL DAEMONS.

 

So, yeah, I'm plotting. But as I said, Calth's a while away yet - in whatever shape it takes - so we're still just musing back and forth.

 

Legatus, as ever, you are an absolute gem.

[Legatus]

I am flattered, and humbled all the same, as here I am citing some basic issues while you were already trying to work out the in depths details.

 

I think at the time of the Heresy the traitor Legions had a strong support from the Chaos entities, and they were blocking communications and travelling ships to the advantage of Horus' forces and all that. The Word Bearers would perhaps have been able to call on daemonic support much more readily than Chaos forces are today, where there is a lot of summoning and effort involved. There would probably still be some kind of catalyst needed, but I assume they already had a huge number of warp creatures ready and waiting for the slightest opportunity to strike.

 

 

To the OP: I am terribly sorry for all the off topic stuff, but I hope you understand that I could not pass up the opportunity to discuss the details of the battle for Calth with a BL author who may in the future be writing about it.

[apologist]

The rulebook for Adeptus Titanicus, has some nice titbits about a fight between the Word Bearers and Ultramarines. Given the scale of the fight and various details, I'm presuming that this is actually the earliest mention of the big ruck. :)

 

"Come in, Crotaline. War-Cruiser Crotaline, please respond.” It’s no good, Primarch. I can’t raise the Crotaline; the war-cruiser Lacertian must have got her.”

Roboute Gulliman nodded gravely.

“We’ll have to take them on alone. Though without a barrage to soften them up, it’ll be a harder fight than I’d anticipated. It may even delay our departure.”

So Ultramarines on the defence, but led by their Primarch in this early version. Sounds like the Word Bearers have still got orbital supremacy at this point...

 

Though they were half-hidden by the thick red-brown plumes, [Guilliman] could just make out the flattened carapaces of the Traitor Warlords.

At this range they were no more than tiny black specks fluttering in the breeze, and the hundreds of armored machines that swarmed around the Titan’s feet looked less threatening than a swarm of ants.

“The Word Bearers; the whole Chapter [i.e. Legion] on the field at once.”

Gulliman allowed himself a ironic smile.

“A remarkable event, even more so now that the Ultramarines stand ready to face them.”

Lots of marines!

Perhaps this details the counter-attack against the Word Bearers?

 

“To think it should come to this Primarch – Brother versus Brother.” Gulliman nodded as Karrack returned to his side, obviously upset that the enemy were fellow Marines. “May Horus rot in oblivion for his treachery.”

Gulliman understood the Captain’s anger; he knew the men were feeling it too.

“Aye, Karrack. Damn his eternal soul if you want. You must admit though, the way he caught us was a masterful stroke.”

Well, there's a nice note. P'raps old Horus wrote the masterplan himself?

 

Gulliman stood for a moment, not taking his eyes off the approaching Traitors. “A command I thought I’d never have to give, Karrack; even in my most terrifying nightmares.” He glanced over his shoulder at the uncomfortable Captain.

“Give them the command to charge, Captain, and pray the Emperor will forgive us all. Tell them they must kill their Brother Marines.”

No real reason to quote this bit, beyond the fact it's awesome ;)

 

The first wave of troops disappeared as the ground melted, the rock becoming molten around their feet. Fifty vehicles vanished in a mist of vaporized metal as they were slowly sucked into the lake of steaming plasma, the dull crump of their power units sending columns of flame into the air as they exploded [...] Gulliman watched as his men charged into battle. He winced as a dozen detachments fell to Land Raider fire, watched the bright beams of light cut through the Marines ranks. [...] He watched as eighty Land Raiders responded instantaneously, tracks spraying mud as they swung to the left and cut off the Traitor’s advance.

My emphasis. Large scale!

 

The casualties were uncountable, many were simply buried under the crumbling rock. [...] He had expected losses – but even Roboute Gulliman hadn’t anticipated what happened next: as one, the Word bearer’s Land Raiders and Whirlwind missile carriers spun on the spot and sprayed the nearest building with everything they had. The Librarium shook for a moment, then caved in on itself in a cloud of dust and plascrete. There was a deathly silence as the rubble settled. Two hundred Ultramarines were buried alive.

Gulliman cursed, and thumped a nearby rock in frustration. The outcrop exploded in a hail of chippings as his fist slammed into it, the impact of the power field blasting the granite apart.

The fanatical and vicious nature of the Word Bearer assault is brought home here, which is possibly why the Ultramarines could have been thrown back despite their advantages. I've always liked this extract, as it implies to me that the Word Bearers finally found a chink in Guilliman's icy calm professionalism. Perhaps this is the moment Guilliman realises that he must bind all his wisdom together into a Codex for the ages? :)

 

Anyway, enough there I think – I'll echo Legatus' apology to the Opening Poster, and hope he or she'll forgive me for a little Ultramarines/Word Bearers enthusiasm :)

 

Coming back on topic, I think you've gathered together all of the little hints we've had so far in the list. My personal feeling is that not all of the Legions would have had honorifics – instead simply being referred to as their Legion number; and that certain Legions would – prescience and warpcraft aside – have had to be named after being reunited with their Primarch.

 

The Blood Angels are the ur-example; being named after the Tribe of the Blood on Baal; and also after the Angelic Sanguinius. The Ultramarines are another possible candidate – is the Ultramar sector named after them, or are they named after it? My interpretation is on my Pre-Heresy Ultramarine thread here . If you'll forgive a little gushing fanboyism, A D-B, I'd be very happy if you'd like to have a poke about there :)

[Marshal Rohr]

Well... I personally hope the Ultramarines are absolutely torn apart. I mean the most intense and worst fight of their lives. Calth needs to be their Siege of the Imperial Palace.

 

Can you imagine it? In a SINGLE book every UM haters argument about the UMs not doing anything during the Heresy is squashed and shattered into a billion pieces. Both sides are fighting for something to prove. The Ultramarines are motivated by betrayal and defending their homeworlds, while the Word Bearers are fighting for revenge and to prove that they aren't the weaklings everyone believes them to be. Its going to be epic.

 

 

As for how the Word Bearers succeed, don't just say legions of Daemons help, as that would be kind of a cop out. Imagine in Lord of the Rings, the Forces of Good only win because a ghost army agrees to help them? Was the scene awesome? Hell yeah it was. Was it kind of a random wild card that gave the good guys the upper hand? Yeah... Its like the Battle for Calth but in reverse. The Bad Guys are outnumbered and call in their hordes of unreal allies to even the odds.

 

I want to see the Word Bearers given a true reason for gaining the upper hand. Strategy.

 

They have been planning this assault for what? 40 plus years? They will have done everything possible to take Guilliman's natural advantages from him. I want to see the Word Bearers tear through Guilliman's logistical support. I want to see lines of communication in tatters, ammo unable to reach the front lines, medical and supply rendered totally ineffective. Ultramarines fighting totally alone against a force of nature that hates them for turning them into who they are now and for being the instrument the Emperor used to reveal his greatest lie.

 

When that Word Bearers fleet breaks warp over Calth it needs to been the true pantheons judgment descended upon the Emperor's greatest sons.

 

 

Now realistically what would it take for a numerically inferior force to defeat a numerically superior force that is motivated, concentrated, and better trained (because apparently the Word Bearers arent very good soldiers)? They have to divide them, make them blind, scare them, and remove their leadership. If the Legion is broken up into many smaller forces isolated from one another the Word Bearers will be able to overcome and destroy them. I want to see that. I want to read that. I want to see the Ultramarines get their a**es kicked and noses bloodied. The XIII Legion NEEDS to have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. They finally need a victory worth having, and one where we read about them actually EARNING it, instead of just DOING it.

 

I also want the Word Bearers to have been practicing... hard. The Word Bearers who descend on Calth should nopt be the Word Bearers fighting across the worlds conquered in the Great Crusade. These should be exponentially better. The Ultramarines should underestimate them, which could give a reason for overstretching themselves in the initial betrayal and leads to them getting divided up.

 

A D-B you are going to be the salvation of the Ultramarines when you write this. Just make sure you answer enough questions and provide enough evidence that whatever Mary-Sue sillyness Graham puts in the Ultramarines side wont really matter.

[Legatus]

I've always liked this extract, as it implies to me that the Word Bearers finally found a chink in Guilliman's icy calm professionalism.

I dunno, that was 1st Edition Ultramarines. You cannot really take descriptions of characters or events and apply them to today's standards as they have been established in 2nd Edition. Back then the "Chapters" (instead of Legions) were led by the Imperial Commanders who had founded them, also called "Primarchs". Marines were getting old at 80+ years. The Ultramarines were supposedly a third founding Chapter originally, though that seems to be contradicted by this description of them fighting during the Heresy. Space Marines were tough grunts, often taken from ranks of criminals and penal troops. Space Marines and Primarchs were not the super humans they eventually became.

 

 

The Ultramarines should underestimate them, which could give a reason for overstretching themselves in the initial betrayal and leads to them getting divided up.

In the collected visions it is purely the shock of the initial surprise attack that has the Ultramarines on the surface quickly being isolated into several smaller pockets of resitance. It was not them overstretching their forces during a counterattack due to underestimating the Word Bearers capabilities. It was them being completely blown away by a bajillion cultists, daemons and a large number of Word Bearers crashing down on them.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Ultramarines should underestimate them, which could give a reason for overstretching themselves in the initial betrayal and leads to them getting divided up.

In the collected visions it is purely the shock of the initial surprise attack that has the Ultramarines on the surface quickly being isolated into several smaller pockets of resitance. It was not them overstretching their forces during a counterattack due to underestimating the Word Bearers capabilities. It was them being completely blown away by a bajillion cultists, daemons and a large number of Word Bearers crashing down on them.

 

 

No, no, Leg-y. The greatest victories don't come whenever you win a fight even though you got hit first, they come whenever you screw up, realize it, and change it. The Ultramarines need to earn this one. If they don't they are just falcon punching another avatar.

[Ethrion]

Calth needs to be their Siege of the Imperial Palace.

 

Exactly! This needs to be a: backs to the wall, last stand, victory from jaws of defeat etc etc...

[Captain Idaho]

@ A D-B: If I may be so bold, here are my suggestions:

 

Daemons: The Word Bearers are known as being second in size only to the Ultramarines. That is alot of men to become Daemon Portals... Imagine the betrayal that will sicken the Ultramarines (as stated in Index Astartes Word Bearers); the massed Cultists they have culled and their Brothers they fight toe to toe to protect their homeworld is bad enough, then the Word Bearers sully themselves further by sacrificing a portion of their number to become Daemons. Perhaps their Librarians?

 

Or maybe they round up some of Calth's populace sacrifice them in vast pits of carnal slaughter and decadence?

 

Or maybe every dead Ultramarine and Word Bearer becomes a Daemon portal (i.e. the flesh is used as fuel for possession)?

 

Question: Weren't the Ultramarines supposed to be outnumbered on Calth? According to Index Astartes Word Bearers of course...

[Zynk Kaladin]

The Emperor had initially called the 13th Legion "The only ones I got right", but Guilliman in his modesty chose to rename them to "Ultramarines". :P

 

I burn with the need to make this canon.

 

Do you want to start another brother vs. brother galaxy-wide war? Horus would be proud of you ;)

 

But yea, battle of Calth should be pretty epic. Do not disappoint me when/if you write it :D

[Legatus]

The greatest victories don't come whenever you win a fight even though you got hit first, they come whenever you screw up, realize it, and change it. The Ultramarines need to earn this one. If they don't they are just falcon punching another avatar.

But would that then not invite criticism like "the Ultramarines acted completely stupid, but through sheer plot armour they eventually had to win anyway..."?

 

I think one can be at the brink of defeat withut having made crucial mistakes.