Calth discussion

[Marshal Rohr]

But do you seriously think a story in which they earn they victory, instead of just winning because of the same tired BS about them being the best ever, would be worse? It would invalidate the detractors argument as just trying to find a flaw, instead of an author presenting a flaw, the Ultramarines falling to it, recognizing it, recovering from it, and rising victorious?

 

 

I think one can be at the brink of defeat withut having made crucial mistakes.

 

But that is the DEFINITION OF MARY SUE. That is what you want to avoid. The Ultramarines need to make mistakes, and alot of them, to be taken seriously. If you always win, no matter what, you really dont win anything. You need to have the ever-living crap kicked out of you to make up for missing everything important in the Heresy and just grabbing control afterwards.

[Legatus]

I don't think they would have to screw up for that. They only need to suffer loss. I distinclty remember something about the Ultramarines losing roughly a third of their Legion in the battle for Calth, but I cannot seem to find a source for that. If that is true, then, using BL numbers, they would have lost about 80,000 to 90,000 men in that battle. That is more than some of the smaller Legions had in total! However, it would still have left them at 160,000 men, which would probably still be the largest Legion even with the others being at full strength.

[Captain Malachi]

Surely getting a royal ass-kicking without making mistakes is worse?

[Priest33]

Honestly I'm hopeing Calth is just a footnote chapter in the Ultramarines book that they release, so all the authors can get on the job of writing more stuff about Legions that have very basic history during this point. Sally's Raven guard Iron Hands Iron Warriors Night Lords White Scars Alpha Legion (yes i know they had a book but it told us little to nothing about Alph/Omeg's discovery and relationship with the other primarchs) world eaters anyone but a legion that already has every codex made for them.

[Trel]

That's what worries me too.

 

Right now in 30k, the forces of Chaos seem, if not unstoppable, very on-the-ball. They've got their bases covered, they adapt, they plan ahead. Depending on how the Battle of Calth is written, I fear they could go back to the cartoonish, ineffectual super-villainy that they are in the 40th millennium.

 

Abbadon: "Ladies, daemons, gentlemen: behold! My latest, greatest, and most eeeee-vil plan yet. In this we will - oh, a question in the back?"

New Guy: "Hi, yeah. I'm Ted Smith. I'm new. I work accounts receivable at the Titan Foundry for Morglath the Insidious. My question is this (and please bear with me, I'm new, after all) will your plan be executed by the same incompetent, squabbling boobs who you put in charge of your previous evil plans?"

Abbadon [thinks...turns to one of his lieutenants...points toward Ted]: "Promote that man!"

 

It wouldn't seem so bad if the Battle of Calth had some serious repercussions beyond just ruining a single planet in an Imperium of millions. (Let's be honest, the only planets that matter are Earth, Mars, and Cadia. The others...meh.) Something along the lines of the Word Bearers having a four-phase plan and three of them worked: so the Ultras may have carried the day, but they are corrupted forevermore and they don't even realize it.

[Legatus]

Er... Calth as a world was inconsequential. The entire purpose of that attack was to take the Ultramarines Legionout of teh picture, eitehr by destroying them or by at least delaying them. It is that simple, and I don't think there have to be invented additional hidden goals for it. This sounds suspiciously like that retconned victory for the Word bearers that had been mentioned.

[Trel]

If it's so inconsequential, then there's no need to write about it. We don't want another "Furious Abyss" do we?

[greatcrusade08]

i think legatus was saying the world meant nothing it was merely the place to launch a trap on the Ultras..

[Trel]

I get what Legatus was saying, and his interpretation of the canon is correct. My point doesn't disagree with it, but rather asks, "if it's just going to be a re-telling of a canonical event with no new revelations, what's the point?"

 

A little bolter-porn is nice every now and then, but I think by introducing a volume that serves no purpose except to make the Ultras look better it ends up being eminently skippable in the series.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

A little bolter-porn is nice every now and then, but I think by introducing a volume that serves no purpose except to make the Ultras look better it ends up being eminently skippable in the series.

 

I would hope that it would include more than just action scenes; something of the character of the Ultramarines at the time, maybe the politics of their position within the Astartes amongst other things.

 

That said, even if it is "bolter-porn" I won't skip it.. Even if you don't agree with such, I think it ruins the feeling of reading the whole thing.

[Legatus]

I think the events are interesting enough without having to rely on massive battle scenes. The Ultramarines were completely shocked about the attack. Initially, unaware of the overall events, Guilliman wondered whether this was a strike specifically against his Legion, orchestrated by the Lorgar and Horus. Why were his two brothers conspiring to kill him? But he suspected that it was more than that, as the wide disruption of communications with the rest of his brothers hinted at something bigger. For the Word Bearers it was not merely a mission to engage one of the loyalists Legions. They had already hated the Ultramarines for some time, due to their favoured position amongst the Emperor's sons. The Word Bearers were relishing this mission, and were eager to take the Ultramarines down.

 

What then follows is one of the few straight "Legion A vs. Legion X" battles of the Heresy, as in most other instances there were several Legions involved, or it was only a small part of a Legion. The Battle for Prospero would be another example. The Battle on Eskrador perhaps, but that is meant to be ambiguous, so if BL decides to make that into a novel it would take the entire ambiguity out of the affair. There was the Iron Cage, but that was what remained of the Iron Warriors versus the remains of the Imperial Fists Legion. Both had already suffered through the Heresy and the Scouring.

[Marshal Rohr]

See Legatus, you get the gravity of the battle, now lets just inject some character, and you will finally have the evidence you need to shut up every Ultra-hater to open their mouths or flap their hands against their keyboards ever again.

[greatcrusade08]

See Legatus, you get the gravity of the battle, now lets just inject some character, and you will finally have the evidence you need to shut up every Ultra-hater to open their mouths or flap their hands against their keyboards ever again.

 

from your mouth to gods ears M2C

[Captain Idaho]

I just hope that Guilliman gets a direct casting role and not a Primarch we hear about but not actually in the book...

[Captain Malachi]

See Legatus, you get the gravity of the battle, now lets just inject some character, and you will finally have the evidence you need to shut up every Ultra-hater to open their mouths or flap their hands against their keyboards ever again.

You really won't. 99% of ultra-haters are only like that because it's the 'cool' thing to do. seeing as how there's nothing anybody can do to change their minds, I don't see why it's worth worrying about.

 

@Idaho: I doubt that'll happen. The trend seems to be writing the books from the viewpoint of someone close to the primarch, but not the primarch himself. Guilliman will be there, but he won't be the main character by a long way.

[Legatus]

It's probably going to focus on Captain Ventanus. And McNeill will write him as a Captain that rejects Guilliman's doctrines and he will probably have to go against those doctrines in order to prevail. That's kinda how McNeill's Ultramarines stories go... :P

[Trel]

True, but the first drafts had Captain Ventris following the Codex to the letter, to much success.

 

"Brave Captain Ventris was faced with a dilemma, fortunately, he and his resolute sergeant Pasanius followed the teachings of the Codex. And they succeeded. And everything was awesome. And there was cake and soda for everyone. Except the xenos, who were annihilated."

[Legatus]

I forgot. You have to make Marines form a distinct Chapter act totally out of Character to make it interresting. A Dark Angel acting like a Dark Angel, or a Black Templar acting like a Black Templar would be boring, and readers would hate it. They would rather like to read about a Black Templar who feels that maybe wiches can be nice people too, and perhaps the Imperium can get along with everyone if they do not act so grumpy and angry all the time. And all works out well and vindicates his belief, that being nice to everyone is the better approach in the 40K universe. Black Templar players would love it.

[Captain Idaho]

@Idaho: I doubt that'll happen. The trend seems to be writing the books from the viewpoint of someone close to the primarch, but not the primarch himself. Guilliman will be there, but he won't be the main character by a long way.

 

I don't want him to be the main character neccessarily, just be in it.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I want a part where the Ultras seem like they're losing bad, but then they whip out this multi-segmented ultra-secret complex stratagem they planned right from the start to turn the battle around. Something at least the reader would not suspect, but would make sense. Where all the minute actions the Ultras took during the campaign were for that one final moment where the crap hits the fan for the Word Bearers and Guilliman is like "haha there was never a doubt for victory" by being calm and stoic the whole time.

[Trel]

I forgot. You have to make Marines form a distinct Chapter act totally out of Character to make it interresting. A Dark Angel acting like a Dark Angel, or a Black Templar acting like a Black Templar would be boring, and readers would hate it. They would rather like to read about a Black Templar who feels that maybe wiches can be nice people too, and perhaps the Imperium can get along with everyone if they do not act so grumpy and angry all the time. And all works out well and vindicates his belief, that being nice to everyone is the better approach in the 40K universe. Black Templar players would love it.

 

Is there anything wrong with a Marine acting against the nature of his Chapter? I don't really think there is. It provides much-needed dramatic conflict to a 400-page book. Moreover, with a Chapter like the Ultramarines who are so straight-and-narrow, putting them in situations where the Codex can't guide their every move is interesting because it makes them have to think (and gives the author a chance at character development.) Moreover, the nature of a Chapter and the nature of an individual aren't always exactly the same. To wit, if I don't like stuffy contemporary theater and I'm not an alcoholic, does that make me not a German?

 

Books about Marines would be pretty boring if a Chapter was a thousand guys who all thought the same. (Then it wouldn't be a Chapter, it would be a frat. :P )

[Captain Idaho]

I think Legatus is actually complaining that the theme "Marine goes against his nature/Chapter teachings/Traditions" etc has been done to death has become the norm.

[Techmarine Data007]

The same goes for a lot of different media where it's 'one man goes against the rules to save it all'. It's so widespread one has to wonder why the rules are there at all. The thing is that is exactly what the Ultramarines are. From the day they are recruited, they are taught an expansive set of guidelines that cover nearly everything about making war. There is a rule or a passage for nearly any given situation. And it's not even a vague reference like the bible, but a solid observation of events and how to best counter them. That is how an Ultramarine goes to war. And in the few cases where they don't know about what they're fighting, they learn and adapt, becoming better and more effective warriors. That's the character of the Chapter. And within that character, there are facets of the individuals that make up the Chapter. There is so much room for variety that doesn't compromise the 'encyclopedic masters of warfare' that one wonders why McNeill, in this case, had to find the one 'rebellious' Ultramarine to make an interesting character.

[Supreme Overlord]

Well... I personally hope the Ultramarines are absolutely torn apart. I mean the most intense and worst fight of their lives. Calth needs to be their Siege of the Imperial Palace.

 

Can you imagine it? In a SINGLE book every UM haters argument about the UMs not doing anything during the Heresy is squashed and shattered into a billion pieces. Both sides are fighting for something to prove. The Ultramarines are motivated by betrayal and defending their homeworlds, while the Word Bearers are fighting for revenge and to prove that they aren't the weaklings everyone believes them to be. Its going to be epic.

 

 

As for how the Word Bearers succeed, don't just say legions of Daemons help, as that would be kind of a cop out. Imagine in Lord of the Rings, the Forces of Good only win because a ghost army agrees to help them? Was the scene awesome? Hell yeah it was. Was it kind of a random wild card that gave the good guys the upper hand? Yeah... Its like the Battle for Calth but in reverse. The Bad Guys are outnumbered and call in their hordes of unreal allies to even the odds.

 

I want to see the Word Bearers given a true reason for gaining the upper hand. Strategy.

 

They have been planning this assault for what? 40 plus years? They will have done everything possible to take Guilliman's natural advantages from him. I want to see the Word Bearers tear through Guilliman's logistical support. I want to see lines of communication in tatters, ammo unable to reach the front lines, medical and supply rendered totally ineffective. Ultramarines fighting totally alone against a force of nature that hates them for turning them into who they are now and for being the instrument the Emperor used to reveal his greatest lie.

 

When that Word Bearers fleet breaks warp over Calth it needs to been the true pantheons judgment descended upon the Emperor's greatest sons.

 

 

Now realistically what would it take for a numerically inferior force to defeat a numerically superior force that is motivated, concentrated, and better trained (because apparently the Word Bearers arent very good soldiers)? They have to divide them, make them blind, scare them, and remove their leadership. If the Legion is broken up into many smaller forces isolated from one another the Word Bearers will be able to overcome and destroy them. I want to see that. I want to read that. I want to see the Ultramarines get their a**es kicked and noses bloodied. The XIII Legion NEEDS to have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. They finally need a victory worth having, and one where we read about them actually EARNING it, instead of just DOING it.

 

I also want the Word Bearers to have been practicing... hard. The Word Bearers who descend on Calth should nopt be the Word Bearers fighting across the worlds conquered in the Great Crusade. These should be exponentially better. The Ultramarines should underestimate them, which could give a reason for overstretching themselves in the initial betrayal and leads to them getting divided up.

 

A D-B you are going to be the salvation of the Ultramarines when you write this. Just make sure you answer enough questions and provide enough evidence that whatever Mary-Sue sillyness Graham puts in the Ultramarines side wont really matter.

 

From a Word Bearer fanatic's point of view, I agree with you. I would not bother even reading the blurb on the back of the novel if it was yet another "Ultramarines win cause they're Ultramarines". A story where the blue boys actually struggle, and for the first time in his life, Guilliman actually breaks a sweat trying to win? That would be awesome. And if the Bearer's do well because of planning and some strategy, not just because they outnumber the Loyalists would be awesome too. They've had a long time to plan for it, and if they just ran in there like mindless rabble as so many think they would, I would be sadly disappointed.

 

And for those that don't think its an important enough event, lets not forget this is the reason the most powerful of all the Legions couldn't join the party at Terra. It would have had to have been a tough fight to tie up the Ultras for so long, so realisticaly, Guilliman's boys should be hard pressed.

 

My opinion on the matter, anyway.

[Aqatone]

Is there any way to force ADB to write an ultras book? I would buy enough copies to build myself a throne with which to read upon.