The Son of Russ Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The Emperor had initially called the 13th Legion "The only ones I got right", but Guilliman in his modesty chose to rename them to "Ultramarines". :) I burn with the need to make this canon. i burn with the need to throw up. Such orderlyness sickens this wolf! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2650624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The Emperor had initially called the 13th Legion "The only ones I got right", but Guilliman in his modesty chose to rename them to "Ultramarines". :wub: I burn with the need to make this canon. i burn with the need to throw up. Such orderlyness sickens this wolf! Now if only we get super lucky and the lucky(ish) person who gets to author the Battle of Calth subtly insinuates that the smurfs don't view themselves as perfect, or even better, see themselves as the least of legions and that the smurf loving forced upon us all in the grim darkness of the far future is really just an example of the degeneration of the Imperium. The person who does this for us will win a lifetime's supply of free cookies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2650668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Now if only we get super lucky and the lucky(ish) person who gets to author the Battle of Calth subtly insinuates that the smurfs don't view themselves as perfect I don't think they do. I don't think anything like that has ever been stated by anyone. Not that a lack of material has ever stopped an Ultramarine detractor from coming up with accusations by themselves. Any accusations of how the Ultramarines "allways go around saying they are the best" are like accusing Chuck Norris of allways boasting how he is the greatest and can beat up everyone. I mean, I have not met him, but I don't think he is saying that, is he? Similarly, the Ultramarines are not going around claiming how they are the greatest of all the Chapters. That is GW telling us they are. Just like how it is only the internet saying that Chuck Norris is the greatest. You may not want to hear GW telling you about how great the Ultramarines are. Just like how you may not want to hear from some internet guys about how great Chuck Norris is. But please don't then accuse Chuck Norris or the Ultramarines of being boastful or vain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2650756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Actually, the Deathwatch game has "pride" as the Ultramarine "Chapter flaw" that they gain as they get more and more insanity points. Basically, as a marine goes more and more insane, his psychoconditioning covers it, but he tends to reflect the nature of the Chapter more. Dark Angels become more secretive, Blood Angels get more bloodthirsty, Black Templar become more psyker-hating, and the Ultramarines eventually start to feel insulted when a non-Ultramarine (or successor) gets given leadership (because they're the scions of Guilliman, they're meant to lead!), are compelled to volunteer for the most dangerous roles (because only an Ultramarine could do it successfully) and so on. So yes, many Ultramarines do think of their Chapter as the best, and above all others. Maybe not utterly, but I suspect many would feel slighted when a non-Ultramarine is given command, because they won't have the knowledge of the Codex that they do, their Chapter isn't as prestigious, etc. As much as I oppose Ultra-bashing (while I enjoy the occasional joke, I do think they're an interesting Chapter), I do think that pride is their flaw. I can't see an Ultramarine outwardly complaining about a situation where they don't lead, because that isn't what a true soldier would do, but there would be some hidden resentment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2650803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Actually, the Deathwatch game has "pride" as the Ultramarine "Chapter flaw" that they gain as they get more and more insanity points. Ironically enough, the Ultramarines are described as being generally less arrogant than Marines of other Chapters in the basic description in the Deathwatch rulebook (p. 54), and their specific Chapter 'single' and 'squad' abilities are even based on being more diplomatic and being more able to cooperate than Marines of other Chapters. Neither this advantageous trait, nor the very same trait turned completely on its head and given as their disadvantage, are based on previous GW fluff and they were both devised by the Deathwatch developers. While a lot of Ultramarine players have expressed that they can easily see this as being a fitting "extreme case flaw" for an Ultramarine, I still find it a poor attempt of the authors to give the Ultramarines a compareable flaw to the red thirst, the curse of the wulfen or the hunt for the fallen. The GW background simply did not provide anything compareable for the Ultramarines, but the Deathwatch game mechanic required such a flaw. It did not work out in this case, in my opinion. That being said, it is only natural for members of a Chapter, who all have very different traditions, to value their own traditions and doctrines over those of other Chapters. But that is not the same as openly proclaiming that one's Chapter is the best of all. Much like a parent would not openly proclaim that his child is the best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2650835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Legatus I still dont see how you can deny that within an organization of 1000 different beings there would be some :cuss who think that just by virtue of being Ultramarines they know best. Its true for every human interaction, why wouldn't it be for them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2651025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicus Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Legatus I still dont see how you can deny that within an organization of 1000 different beings there would be some :cuss who think that just by virtue of being Ultramarines they know best. Its true for every human interaction, why wouldn't it be for them? Agreed on every level. I'm not one to hate on Ultras, their successors, or the people that play them, but Ultras seem a little stuck up, believing that the Codex is the only way to fight. If you don't follow the rules, you get sent out of the Chapter. Idaeus was creative to some extent, at least. He's the only Ultra character I ever liked the fluff for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2651030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Much like a parent would not openly proclaim that his child is the best. Parents do that all the time, I've seen the bumper stickers. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2651134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 So yes, many Ultramarines do think of their Chapter as the best, and above all others. Maybe not utterly, but I suspect many would feel slighted when a non-Ultramarine is given command, because they won't have the knowledge of the Codex that they do, their Chapter isn't as prestigious, etc. Wouldnt this appy to each and every Space Marine? I cant imagine any member of any chapter admitting "you are better then us" to any other chapter, openly or otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2651325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Legatus I still dont see how you can deny that within an organization of 1000 different beings there would be some censored.gif who think that just by virtue of being Ultramarines they know best. Its true for every human interaction, why wouldn't it be for them? Because we are not talking about what could possibly and potentially happen with individuals, we are talking about a special rule for this specific Chapter, representing a higher tendency inherited in all Marines of this Chapter that is only surfacing with extreme individuals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2651348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseDaMoose Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 How do these threads always end up about Ultramarines? I think we can see the fierce pride of the Ultramarines in many of their players on these boards. Legatus for example, always at the forefront defending his chapter's honour, an admirable quality no doubt :) but I don't really see how it applies to the title of the thread? P.S. Not blaming Legatus for the way this thread has progressed or for the fact that the Ultramarine argument has resurfaced! I haven't read that far back so I dunno who started it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 You could say Legatus fails his insanity tests for 'pride' anytime someone disparages the Ultramarines ;) For an example, in Helsreach Priamus and Bastilan are resting in between battles after the Salamanders leave. Priamus is whining about how the Salamanders always defend and arn't aggressive enough, but Bastilan points put that each Chapter is individual and to hold each to the standards of the Black Templars is an exercise in futility. Not because each is inferior (though they are :P ) it's because each chapter is unique and individual as every human being is each an individual. This is a perfect example of two marines from the same chapter holding different viewpoints about how chapters should conduct themselves. I can clearly envision two Ultramarines discussing why the Black Templars are so different while translating their New King James version of the Codex in Modern Study Standard or whatever it is they do for fun. I can see one saying the Templars are idiots for not embracing the Codex and the other saying it doesn't really matter because their methods work and they arn't Ultramarines and shouldn't be treated as such. Or a pair of Blood Angels arguing while sculpting about whether or not the Iron Hands have any appreciation for beauty or the Space Wolves any knowledge of combs ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I cannot really say anything against a person's personal dislike of the Ultramaries. But what I will not let stand are misinformed accusations, such as in this case the notion that the Ultramarines apparently see themselves as "perfect". I had taken that as a straight suggestion and not a joke, but with written text you can never be sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Why wouldn't a few Ultramarines consider themselves to be perfect? I mean GW says they are the pinnacle of a Space Marine chapter and they are regarded across the Imperium to be the best, so why wouldn't a few Ultramarines consider themselves to know best? Its completly logical to assume a few would consider it, isn't it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Why wouldn't a few Ultramarines consider themselves to be perfect? I mean GW says they are the pinnacle of a Space Marine chapter and they are regarded across the Imperium to be the best, so why wouldn't a few Ultramarines consider themselves to know best? Its completly logical to assume a few would consider it, isn't it. The problem Legatus has is that it isnt a "few". This is mentioned as a character trait amongst the Ultramarines as a whole. So unless the Deathwatch really can pick only the ones with intense Ultra-pride, then the only logical conclusion is that Ultramarines as a whole are more prideful then other Space Marines. Which goes againts the benfits they gave them in the same book and is a bit dubious to claim. IMO, the character flaw of the Ultramarines would be the chain of command. All the other Deathwatch Marines get flaws based on some basic part of their Chapter`s psyche like the wulfen and the red thirst. The basic part of the Ultramarines psyche isnt pride, but their adherence to the chain of command. So an insane Ultramarine would probably cling to it harder and more dogmatically then his breathren, taking any command from a superior officer without question or hesitation even if it was against his better judgment, or if he was put in charge, he would treat any breach of the chain of command, however insignificant, at best as a sign of disrespect and at worst as a step towards treason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Why wouldn't a few Ultramarines consider themselves to be perfect? I mean GW says they are the pinnacle of a Space Marine chapter and they are regarded across the Imperium to be the best, so why wouldn't a few Ultramarines consider themselves to know best? Its completly logical to assume a few would consider it, isn't it. "The best" is something entirely different. The claim was that they think of themselves as "perfect". A Marine could reasonably, from his perspective, come to the coclusion that his own Chapter's way is the best. A lot of Marines, from a lot of Chapters might do that. But thinking of themselves as "perfect" is not reasonable. The former, while possibly boastful, is still somewhat reasonable, while the latter is pure vanity and even heedless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not one to hate on Ultras, their successors, or the people that play them, but Ultras seem a little stuck up, believing that the Codex is the only way to fight. If you don't follow the rules, you get sent out of the Chapter. Because Black Templars and Space Wolves, believing that their way of warfare is the best way to fight, isn't stuck up at all Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseDaMoose Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 They're not stuck-up. They're clinically insane Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2652885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not one to hate on Ultras, their successors, or the people that play them, but Ultras seem a little stuck up, believing that the Codex is the only way to fight. If you don't follow the rules, you get sent out of the Chapter. Because Black Templars and Space Wolves, believing that their way of warfare is the best way to fight, isn't stuck up at all ;) It's entirely stuck up and serves to illustrate my point. ALL space marine chapters believe their way is best, or they wouldn't do it. Think about anytime you have a group of highly qualified experts working together (Deathwatch KTs), you will always have a struggle for leadership within the group. This would most definitely surface from marines who serve in a Chapter universally renowned as the 'best'. Within the chapter it wouldn't really be a problem, but in a group where each member is the equivalent of people working together from militaries of different RL countries. Think how much trouble coalition forces have with each group trying to get stuff done. It would be no different. The insanity test isnt insanity at all, its the Ultramarine being subjected to combat stress while leading or serving under someone who is as foreign to them as a British officer leading a platoon made up of Australian, American, Canadian, Scottish, and Irish officers. Its difficult and at some point he has to take charge and do things his way, as represented by him ignoring his team members. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2653037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I'm not one to hate on Ultras, their successors, or the people that play them, but Ultras seem a little stuck up, believing that the Codex is the only way to fight. If you don't follow the rules, you get sent out of the Chapter. Because Black Templars and Space Wolves, believing that their way of warfare is the best way to fight, isn't stuck up at all ;) It's entirely stuck up and serves to illustrate my point. ALL space marine chapters believe their way is best, or they wouldn't do it. No I agree with your point. I was pointing out how other people are critising Ultramarines as stuck up as if they are the only ones is a fallible argument. Humourously, imagine if a Space Marine Chapter was ran by our own governments or big business. They would basically be doing the more inefficient, obsolete practices because they have a target set by someone who doesn't understand really what it requires to be a Space Marine... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2653887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Humourously, imagine if a Space Marine Chapter was ran by our own governments or big business. They would basically be doing the more inefficient, obsolete practices because they have a target set by someone who doesn't understand really what it requires to be a Space Marine... Each marine should average 100 kills per mission, with a period between kills of no more than 30 seconds. No more than 20 bolter rounds are permitted for this activity.!!! That sort of thing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2654205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yet again the ridiculous discussion on the validity or lack thereof in regards to Ultramarine Superiority has tanked another thread into off-topicdom. It is starting to become a problem folks. Too many threads are devolving into this garbage and it is becoming a board wide disruption. There is a small group of "ring leaders" that always seem to be present when this happens. One way or the other, get over it and get it out of your system. If it continues there are going to be unpleasant repercussions for those who continue to interject Ultramarine crap into threads. Airlock 43 and soul rending would be the least of your worries. Don't make the Inquisitor here have to lower his bolter a few inches: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222097-calth-discussion/page/4/#findComment-2654268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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