Bjorn rules

[trefenwyd]

Thinking about running Bjorn in the near future and have a question I couldn't find the answer to anywhere:

 

When Bjorn allows a re-roll of the dice for "who goes first", am I allowed to re-roll any one of my dice rolls, or must it be the first one. I.e., If we both roll 2s to go first, I would elect to re-roll my dice, with a 4/6 chance of beating him, 1/6 of tying, and 1/6 of losing. If we both rolled 6s, I would prefer not to use my reroll, forcing us both to re-roll - can I then choose to use my reroll on a 2nd or subsequent dice-off? If the answer is yes (best case for SW), then the actual numbers we should be using is 66.20% in favor of Wolves winning the roll and 33.80% of going losing (not the 75% I see thrown about everywhere). That number is based on using Bjorn's reroll for losses or ties of 3 or below and saving his reroll for ties of 4+. Just something to think about when deciding to use Bjorn or not. Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

[Mar Bloodaxe]

In my games I've done this. We tied to see who goes first. If the opponent rolls a 2 or lower, and we tie, I then use Bjorn's ability to re-roll. If we tie on anything higher I don't use the ability until I see if i win the roll to go first. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I do it.

[DV8]

The rule that you cannot re-roll a re-roll doesn't apply to the roll for first turn should the result be a tie. The reason is because both players could theoretically tie multiple first-turn rolls, and be forced to roll again and again (the highest I've been up to was 5 consecutive ties, at which point we flipped a coin).

 

So you are correct in playing the odds, whereby if you and your opponent tie the roll for first turn, it is advantageous to consider what the tied number was (a 2-2, for example, or a 6-6) to determine if it is wiser to simply have you and your opponent roll again, or to attempt a re-roll on your own dice to achieve a higher score.

 

My math skills are atrocious, but I will try some mathing here:

 

If the result is a 1-1 tie, you should use Bjorn's ability. You have a 1/6 chance of a tie, but a 5/6 chance of winning the toss.

If the result is a 2-2 tie, you should use Bjorn's ability. You have a 1/6 chance to lose the toss, a 1/6 chance of a tie, but a 2/3 chance of winning the toss.

If the result is a 3-3 tie, you should not use Bjorn's ability. You have a 1/3 chance of losing the toss, a 1/6 chance of a tie, and only a 1/2 chance of winning the toss.

If the result is a 4-4 tie, you should not use Bjorn's ability. You have 1/2 chance of losing the toss, a 1/6 chance of a tie, and only a 1/3 chance of winning the toss.

If the result is a 5-5 tie, you should not use Bjorn's ability. You have 2/3 chance of losing the toss, a 1/6 chance of a tie, and only a 1/6 chance of winning the toss.

If the result is a 6-6 tie, you should not use Bjorn's ability. You have 5/6 chance of losing the toss, and a 1/6 chance of a tie.

 

If my math is correct, at a 1-1 or 2-2 tie, using Bjorn's re-roll ability is ideal because your odds of rolling higher than what your opponent rolled are 83.3% and 66.7% respectively. However, at a 3-3 tie or higher, the best statistical chance you have of winning the toss is 50% (which gets progressively worse the higher the tie is). Odds are at 3-3 or higher, using Bjorn's re-roll will more often simply result in another tie or, more likely, will cause you to lose the toss.

 

Bottom line, at a 1-1 or 2-2 tie, use Bjorn's re-roll ability. 3-3 tie or higher, simply accept the tie, roll again with your opponent, and re-assess. Bjorn's re-roll ability should only be used on a 1-1 or 2-2 tie, or if you happen to lose the roll.

 

EDIT: Don't forget that should you win the first turn roll, your opponent still has a 1/6 chance of stealing the Initiative.

 

If the enemy has Asdrubael Vect (who steals the Initiative on a 4+...turns out he had it all along! :P) it may actually be in your advantage to use Bjorn's Ability (if necessary) to win the first turn toss, and then give it to the Dark Eldar player, anticipating that he will be able to steal first turn anyways (since he steals it half the time anyways, should he choose to).

 

 

DV8

[trefenwyd]

yes, Alpha Strikers hate Vect...

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

give it to the Dark Eldar player, anticipating that he will be able to steal first turn anyways (since he steals it half the time anyways, should he choose to).

 

Adding to that, of courses is the fact that if you choose to let him go first, you can then seize the initiative against him...

 

But generally I found Bjorn phenomenally useless. In 5 tournament games, his ability didn't work once (in fact, we tied on a roll of 1 once, and, knowing my odds I re-rolled. You may guess what happened), and neither did I ever win first turn... So all he was then was a very expensive plasma cannon (granted, in one game he crushed a Waaghboss, the ork biker special charcter and 20 bikes, so he was rather useful on occasion, but in general I wished I hadn't taken him) that couldn't keep up with the rest of the army.

 

On paper he looks alright, but in practice he's a humongous waste of points if you don't center your army around him (I centered mine around that re-roll ability of his, not Bjorn, so it failed. spectactularly).

[nurglez]

How would you base around Bjorn? 3 dreads/vens or 2 and a iron priest? I want to try him out but have only used him once and he wasnt that great...

 

And I have won the roll to choose my last few games, without paying 270 points...

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

How would you base around Bjorn? 3 dreads/vens or 2 and a iron priest? I want to try him out but have only used him once and he wasnt that great...

 

Basing it around Bjorn is maybe a bit misleading. Basically, Bjorn is a CC monster without mobility. He's done extraordinarily well for me when the enemy came to him - against Guard, however (just as an example) he's nearly useless if you're the one assaulting. Armour 13 in combat means that even a power fist hasn't got a great chance of doing major damage. Couple that with venerable and the invul, and he is extremely hard to even dent. If you use long fangs, Bjorn is awesome to have because he'll make first turn more likely, and long fangs are such an immense threat that most opponents will try to send something to get rid of them, and that's where Bjorn comes in.

 

Another very nice thing is that when destroyed he counts as an objective. If you play a list that isn't mostly CC oriented, the capture and control (I think that's the mission - the one that gives each player 1 objective) makes it much easier to win. Basically Bjorn will draw a lot of firepower, especially if you start moving him in the fact of your opponent. Just make sure that if/when he's destroyed, it's not too far from your other objective, or you have enough troops and the mobility to secure him (so he can be repaired after the battle, natrually :D winning's just a side effect...). Then you get 2 objectives and your opponent will have to come to you to win.

 

This isn't the most "honourable" way of using him, and I'd still go for trying to get your opponent's objective, but it does give you a bit of a second chance if things go sour. I nearly won two tournament games that way, although I wasn't trying to get Bjorn killed, I was just trying to get him to sit on the objective to draw fire away from my rhinos and bikers so they could get closer to the enemy in order to avoid those damn many large blast templates.

 

What that guy is missing in order to make him a truly good choice is a drop pod, and perhaps extra armour.

[Growler67]

Thinking about running Bjorn in the near future and have a question I couldn't find the answer to anywhere:

 

When Bjorn allows a re-roll of the dice for "who goes first", am I allowed to re-roll any one of my dice rolls, or must it be the first one. I.e., If we both roll 2s to go first, I would elect to re-roll my dice, with a 4/6 chance of beating him, 1/6 of tying, and 1/6 of losing. If we both rolled 6s, I would prefer not to use my reroll, forcing us both to re-roll - can I then choose to use my reroll on a 2nd or subsequent dice-off? If the answer is yes (best case for SW), then the actual numbers we should be using is 66.20% in favor of Wolves winning the roll and 33.80% of going losing (not the 75% I see thrown about everywhere). That number is based on using Bjorn's reroll for losses or ties of 3 or below and saving his reroll for ties of 4+. Just something to think about when deciding to use Bjorn or not. Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

 

Just adressing the "initiative" roll. A tie, whenever I played, meant both re-rolled until one had the initiative. If I lost the initiative roll and had Bjorn, I could then exercise his ability and re-roll my dice to see if I could gain the initiative. It's that simple.....to me anyway. Math formulas and odds calculations are REALLY overthinking something this basic.

[DV8]

Just adressing the "initiative" roll. A tie, whenever I played, meant both re-rolled until one had the initiative. If I lost the initiative roll and had Bjorn, I could then exercise his ability and re-roll my dice to see if I could gain the initiative. It's that simple.....to me anyway. Math formulas and odds calculations are REALLY overthinking something this basic.

 

The "formulas" and "odds calculations" aren't there to determine if you can use Bjorn's Ancient Tactician ability.

 

The OP's question was whether you had to use Bjorn's ability on the first roll to determine deployment side, or whether you could "hold off" from using it in the event of a tie in the first (or any subsequent roll, should multiple rolls be tied). By the wording, I believe it is possible.

 

The math then comes in to determine when it is most ideal to use Bjorn's Ancient Tactician ability (in the event of a tie). From that math, we can discern that a 1-1 or 2-2 tie (that is, a tie where both players rolled a 1, or both players rolled a 2) is ideal to use Bjorn's ability. Any tie with a value above that is best just rolled again (that is, both players roll the dice again to determine deployment side) as the odds simply aren't in your favor. Of course, if you lose the roll off (and absolutely have to win it to be able to choose), you should re-roll all the time.

 

I don't put much stock in math-hammer beyond determining the statistical average that I should expect to happen (particularly for most unit math-hammer, where the math is all done in a vacuum). In this instance, however, the rolls are done in a vacuum and the math does allow the user to better determine when to use Bjorn's ability. There's no need to deride the math simply because you don't care for it.

 

 

DV8

[Gerwulf]

How would you base around Bjorn? 3 dreads/vens or 2 and a iron priest? I want to try him out but have only used him once and he wasnt that great...

 

 

A while ago I gave this army a whirl or two.

It didn't work terribly well, but it didn't work terribly bad either. I would have needed to make a few adjustment to the list, but I got distracted with other army lists and

never revisited this army again, maybe it would be time for it, soon.

 

I came to quite like Njal recently, but in most games I used him I went second, and most often I forgot completely about his special power in the heat of the battle anyway (he still performed quite well). But I might try Bjorn and Njal in one army at some point. I think Bjorn makes a good back field player equipped with a plasma cannon. He can give insanely accurate plasma fire at range, and if the opponent ventures into my backfield he can beat them up and send them home crying.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

The problem I have with Bjorn's plasma cannon is that even though it will hit most of the time and only scatter 1" on average, it doesn't hit an awful lot, or wreak as much havoc as you'd think. Most players will (eventually) spread out their units so that small templates cause minimal damage. You'll get a maximum of about 4 hits with him, even with no scatter. Adding to that is the fact that there is so much cover available this edition, it means that on average he'll score a grand total of 2 kills a turn.

 

There is the occasional deepstriking squad he can fry, but those cases are incredibly rare (and odds are, the one time you actually get such a juicy target is exactly when Bjorn sneezes, and the template scatters 6" off target). Few players rely on deepstriking as, by nature, this requires you to hold the unit in reserve, and what with those blasted officers of the fleet available to guard, it usually means they show up in the wrong place at the wrong time, so ideally you want mobility rather than the ability to deep strike anywhere you like. Even against other armies, deepstriking means your squads rock up piecemeal (unless you play eldar, of course, which is one of the few armies that can pull this trick off with Autarchs, and dark eldar with warp portals).

 

I've been more and more tempted by either an assault cannon or the TLLC if I ever take Bjorn again (which, odds are, I won't). Bjorns problems is still his lack of mobility, and that someone graced him with the lack of a means of transport.

 

I think Bjorn makes a good back field player equipped with a plasma cannon. He can give insanely accurate plasma fire at range, and if the opponent ventures into my backfield he can beat them up and send them home crying.

 

As outlined above - that plasma cannon just isn't worth Bjorn's point costs. And he's also by no means a good back field player because as such, he'll be firing that gilded plasma cannon of his to little or no effect. You want him in combat - his 4 S10 attacks rip through anything you can think of short of high strength power fists, and odds are those are on characters which will be insta-squashed by bjorn because he strikes before them.

 

Think about it - You can get that very same plasma cannon on a long fang for... 13% of the cost. Or, in other words, you're paying 770% of the price of a plasma cannon for 2" more accuracy. Worth it? hardly. Especially considering that with careful placement, you can negate that scatter - shoot the middle of a spread out unit, and you'll lose almost nothing even if you do scatter slightly more.

[postal105]

Okay what is common with my group is if we tie the roll to go first we simply just roll again to see who goes first.

 

after that if i lose the roll to go first i then use Bjorn's ability to re roll that. the reason for this is because their was a clear winner on the 2nd set of rolls. but this is just how its been done for a long time with my group.

[DV8]

Okay what is common with my group is if we tie the roll to go first we simply just roll again to see who goes first.

 

after that if i lose the roll to go first i then use Bjorn's ability to re roll that. the reason for this is because their was a clear winner on the 2nd set of rolls. but this is just how its been done for a long time with my group.

 

Yes but in the event of a tie, you're also allowed to use Bjorn's ability to re-roll your own dice should you wish to. It just happens that 2/3rds of the time, in the event of a tie you don't, and it's more ideal to simply roll again with your opponent.

 

Reading through his Ancient Tactician rule again, I have to make an argument that the ability may not be a one-time use thing (that is, per game). Consider:

 

• The rules state that you cannot re-roll a re-roll, no matter the source. I am not arguing this.
  
• When rolling for Deployment Zones/first turn, assuming nobody has Bjorn or an ability that allows a re-roll of this, in the event of a tie, both players simply roll again.
  
• Should the subsequent roll also be a tie, both players would roll again. (Not RAW, but this is the commonly accepted practice)
  
• The roll for sides for Deployment may not be a "one-time" roll, but multiple instances of "rolling for sides for Deployment" that simply happen over and over again until a clear winner is determined. (Again not RAW, but given the above point, is a potential explanation/line of reasoning)
  
• Bjorn's Ancient Tactician rule states: Bjorn has seen ten millenia of war. An army that includes Bjorn can re-roll the dice to see who picks their deployment zone first. The FAQ replaces this last line with An army that includes Bjorn can re-roll the dice in the roll-off to see who goes first (after seeing the opponent's score! Which to me says the exact same thing since they are one in the same.
  

 

Now, by that logic one of three situations must occur: If the roll for Deployment zones happens to be a tie, you either:

 

1. Treat the roll for Deployment Zone/first turn as one roll that can be re-rolled. If the first roll is a tie, both players may re-roll, but only once. If the second roll is also a tie, then the game isn't played, because you can't re-roll a re-roll.
   
2. Treat each roll/attempt by both players for Deployment zones/first turn as separate rolls. Should the first roll be a tie, a new roll for Deployment zones/first turn is started and both players roll again.
   
3. The roll for Deployment zone/first turn is a unique rule that implicitly breaks the "no re-rolls on a re-roll" policy, whereby it's one roll attempt that, should players tie, is continuously re-rolled for by both parties until a clear winner is established.
   

 

In the first situation, Bjorn's ability can only be used on the first roll. Should the second roll be a tie or a loss for the Bjorn player, he cannot attempt a re-roll as technically, the Deployment zone/first turn roll has already been "re-rolled". The reverse could happen where, if the first roll is tied, and the Bjorn player opts to re-roll his own die using Ancient Tactician, to once again score a tie, no second roll can be made as the Bjorn player is now no longer allowed to roll again (he's already re-rolled the dice). Does the opponent then win the roll automatically as there is nobody to roll off against? The rules specifically state both players must roll off, so does the Bjorn player roll again and break the "no re-rolls on a re-roll" policy? If the latter, it immediately becomes situation three.

 

In the second situation, Bjorn's ability can be used at every single attempt (should multiple Deployment zone/first turn rolls result in a tie).

 

In the third situation, Bjorn's ability can be used only once, but if is used on anything but the first attempt, also breaks the "no re-rolls on a re-roll" policy.

 

By RAW, situation three can't happen because it breaks the rules. Situation one, without a house-rule (leading to situation three, which breaks the rules), allows for the possibility that, should the roll for Deployment zone/first turn be tied after re-rolls (from any source) that a game might not actually happen.

 

Logic dictates that situation two makes the most sense (and breaks no rules) but did GW really intend for Bjorn's Ancient Tactician ability to be abused in such a way?

 

Thoughts?

 

Note that I'm simply pointing out a poorly thought-out rule on GW's part. I'm not daft enough to actually use Bjorn so I have no real hand to benefit from this. It should also be noted that my argument is purely for poops and giggles, as very few people will actually field Bjorn (regularly), and very rarely will you run into a situation where consecutive rolls for Deployment zone/first turn will actually be tied.

 

 

DV8