Lord Scytha Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (Couldn't resist naming the chapter Sons of Me in this thread. Laughed out lout when I read it in the DIY articles here.) :) Working on a DIY chapter and its accompanying IA article. I haven't decided on a name or colour scheme for them yet but I've already started a thread to discuss that on the forum. [Linky] Updates to this will take place section by section in new posts. For now at least. Now I've envisioned two things about the chapter. The first is that it should be dull, in as much a chapter of 1000 super human warriors can be dull. But it should be the sort of special kind of dull of the guy who never goes off on adventure but instead stays home and does all the work and make sure the gas bill gets paid on time. The "while you run around chasing fallen, feuding with Inquisitors and rescuing lost primarchs, we'll just stay here then and defend the bloody Imperium like we were supposed to do in the first place" kind of dull. Simply put the kind of unappreciated dull of the guys who gets the job done while everyone else is off show boating and hogging all the glory. The workhorse of the Astartes. Secondly, I've always love the piece of fluff about the Sallys during 3rd Armageddon where the Sallys fight primarily to protect the civilians and work to give them aid and help them rebuild. I want the chapter to have that noble streak. A noblesse oblige where they protect and give aid and succour to non-combatants because it's the honourable, even pragmatic, thing to do. Though their acts would be humanitarian it doesn't mean they are humanitarians or that they are nice. But simply that doing otherwise wouldn't be chivalrous and against the their duty. Now I've written a lose concept of an IA for them. With place holders for most names, especially the chapter itself since I haven't named them yet. (If anyone missed it, the Sons of me is meant as a joke.) This is not a finalized attempt of an IA but more of a conceptual preview that might lead to an IA. Therefore it might be a bit unstructured and rambling at point while terse and short at others. That it's full of weird grammatically twists goes without saying. It's just there to get feedback on the concept before fleshing it out into a real text. Here goes.... (orange text = my conceptual comments) The Sons of Me. (work in progress on unnamed chapter) We don’t fight for fame or glory but because it is our duty to stand as an armored bulwark between the foes of the Imperium of Man and it citizens. Doing that duty is what grants us our honor! -Then scout sergeant Django instructing new initiates. Introduction While not as famous as many of the legendary chapters when the chapter comes to the defence of a system in the segmentum pacificus its citizens knows that they have gain a champion sympathetic to their plight and its defenders have gained an stalwart ally devoted to duty and the smiting of the Emperor's foes. Not sure if sympathetic sounds casual enough. Origin The chapter was founded during the 22th Founding partly to bolster the numbers of chapters after the disastrous last founding in response to the troubles during the age of apostasy and partly to make sure it was still possible to succeed with new foundings. It's always been logical to me that founding right after the cursed one would be much closer overseen than normal if for no other that just to reassure the high lords that they still can do it. This close scruitiny would imo be great to insert dramatic tension between the chapter and their overseers but at the same time I can't see how any chapter under such scrutiny would have been allowed to diviate at all from the codex. And even if it isn't much I want some deviation. The chapter is assigned to the Cibius sector in Segmentum Pacificus to secure lines of supplies and protect shipping from the sector and use its strategic location to intercept and stop any hostile incursions coming into the segmentum both from out the segmentum Solar but in particularly chaos raids coming out the Segmentum Obscura from the Eye of Terror. Homeworld The chapter have its fortress monastery uninhabitable Arges system on largest moon around the Gas giant Arges in the so named after an ancient Terran cyclopean myth because of it like Jupiter of the solar system had a large “eye” on its surface cause by an enormous storm. The only difference is that Arges eye sits across the gas giant’s equator and covers almost a quarter of the giant’s surface. The chapter have located it’s base in the Arges system for two reasons. The first is that the system is strategically placed for a short striking distance from most of the other systems in the sector and also because several stable warp corridors that leads to other sectors originates in the system allowing the chapter to monitor arrivals. The chapter also maintains a half dozen chapter chapels on the planets they recruit from. Arges is one of the Titan cylops that Zeus rescued from Tartarus. I'm not sure if I should write out that the name refers to a Cyclops. Cibius sector. The cibius sector is located in the segmentum pacificus close where the segmentum intersects with both the segmentum solar and the segmentum Obscura. Though strategically placed its location is not why the small Cibius sector is of vital importance to the Imperium. The primary reason is because it contains an unusually high percentage of high yield agri-worlds and even among the rest of the worlds in the sector the majority export foods stuffs as their major exports. This have led to the sector often being referred to as the bread basket of the Pacificus and food exported from the Cibius sector not only feed hundreds of planets in the segmentum pacificus but large quantities also goes to feed vital worlds in other sectors such as the planets around the Cadian Gate and even Holy Terra itself. Cibus is latin for food. the name of the sector is a adaptation of that word. Organisation The chapter is a codex faithful chapter though when it comes to marking they follow only the spirit of the codex instead of the letter. Wanted some leeway if I didn't want to add butt ugly red and white helmets that clashed with my colour scheme. The one deviation from the codex is the fleet patrol, a special strike force established to patrol the sector and the most regularly used warp routes out of the sector. Fleet Patrol, yeah that names needs some work. The fleet patrol is also charged with maintaining the chapter chapels of the chapter. Say that fast five times. It consists of 1 squad seconded from each of the reserve companies and the scout company with a demi-squad (demi sounds better than half. Not sure what it's called for real.) of veterans from the 1st company. This force is in turn often broken down in several smaller parts with the veterans sprinkled out as commanders. Through hard lessons and an accident through design, the chapter has found that having the reserve companies permanently under strength have had detrimental effects onf the chapter during protracted campaigns therefore the chapter has increased each reserve company with 1 squad leaving them at eleven squads instead of the Codex ten. For a slightly detailed account on how this happened, read on. The fleet patrol also mean that the chapter have a higher than normal complement of ships, especially in regard of frigates. The best blades man in each company is appointed Company champion and gets to represent the company at special occasions, most often of a ritual nature. However, when disputes occur between companies they are settled by a duel between the companies champions. Other times when two companies vie for the same assignment the champions fight over it and the winner’s company is awarded the assignment on the basis that it shows which company the Emperor favours the most. Like the image of the Imperial fists and it's twelve successor meeting up to have an contest of champions. Wanted to include that somehow in the chapter. Doctrine The chapter follows the codex when it comes to doctrine but in the course of carrying out their primary assigned duty the chapter has gained a mastery when it comes to naval tactics and boarding actions. Beliefs The chapter believes that the Emperor and the primarchs represent the pinnacle of Man’s development and that the Emperor’s divinity stems from him transcending the bounds of Man as specie. They see themselves blessed by being transformed into Astarte and thus brought closer to the image of the primarchs and the emperor. This gives them a hefty amount of arrogance when dealing with none enhanced humans. At the same time they acknowledge the fact that at least theoretically all humans carry the seed inside them to make such a transcending and should there for be valued. On the other hand it also makes them despise sub humans like ogryns and abhor mutants because these represent a human development in the exact opposite direction of the Emperor’s. Basicly they think the emperor have evolved into what amounts to a god and that primarchs is a close to godhood any human can get without being one. They are extreemly proud that as SMs they are a lot closer to "godhood" than normal men but at the same time they aknowlege that the thing that makes humans the superior race compared to all xenos is that all humans could theoretically reach the state og godhood. Though, all of it framed in rather atheistic or at least agnostic terms. They also believe that the foundation for the Emperor’s dominion isn’t planets, monuments or industry but the human citizens living in the Imperium and that it is of utmost importance to protect the citizens. This have led to the pragmatic view that it is no point winning a war if it still means that the civilians you were fighting for still dies of the privation war subjects them too. This have led to that the chapter regularly give aid and succor to civilians and refuges during campaigns and often if possible help with the rebuilding afterwards through advice and resources. It also means that on many occasions the chapter has performed acts of self-sacrifices to protect civilians in a warzone when other military commanders rather would have abandoned them and that the chapter has sternly disapproved of other units or commanders that have pursued military actions with a casual disregard about collateral damage among civilians. This stems from a sense of noblesse oblige as superior beings but also out of pragmatism. There is no sense of defending a planet if you in the process kills off its inhabitants. It's the kind of pragmatism that most imperial commanders share on why Exterminatus is a poor defensive weapon but brought down on a much smaller scale. From that point of view it just makes sense trying to aid refugees and help rebuild as it does killing their enemies. Timeline of the chapter’s history. Not in any chronological order whatsoever. :( Supply ships escorted by chapter ships manage to fight through the blockade around Armageddon on several occasions. The food and supplies they managed deliver kept the defenders fed and probably saved several million citizen from starvation. I remember that Armageddon were blokaded by Ork at one point. Can't remember which war it was though atm. The heavily reinforced 3rd and 5th company performs distinguish service during the Sabbath Worlds Crusades. During the evacuation of XX space port three devastator squads’ from the 9th company volunteers to stay behind to protect the continuing evacuation even though all military assets had already been evacuated and the commanding general of the imperial forces had given the order to withdraw. For more than four hours the accurate and deadly fire from their heavy weapons stalled the armoured spearhead of the Blood Pack. When they were finally extracted themselves the squads had lost almost half of their numbers but the time they had bought had allowed mass lifters to evacuate almost 70 000 non combatants from the space port. 6 companies of the chapter patrols the south and south eastern boarders of the sectors around the Eye of Terror during the 13th Black Crusade. They are responsible for intercepting and destroying several war bands and raiding forces trying to strike out deeper into the Imperium. A depleted strike force of the chapter of just over 30 marines on their way back from deployment is blown out of the warp in a freak warp storm. With the Geller field damaged beyond repair and all their astropaths dead by the psychic blow back from the storm the strike force have no way of returning to warp or communicate long stellar distances so the marines set course towards the closes inhabited Imperial planet at sub light speed before going into hibernation. Yeah, obviously it's not a Fist successor chapter. 300 years later the missing brothers returns to the fold of the chapter. At the time the chapter is involved in several protracted campaigns and stretched to its limited with regard of the necessity to maintain the fleet patrol at the same time. The unexpected reinforcements of the missing battle brothers eases the pressure on the chapter allowing it to perform its duties with new vigour. Afterwards the then chapter master realize that for the chapter to be able to execute its duties as a normal chapter while keeping up the necessary fleet patrol the chapter needs an extra buffer of reserves and so give the order to permanently increase the reserve companies with one squad. So the chapter consist of a staggering 1040 space marines. The Heresy! *gasps* A strike force belonging to the Fleet Patrol discovers a spacehulk converted by orks and its escort of kroozers heading towards an imperial planet. Dashing through the escort screen one of the frigates in the strike force manage to teleport two squads of marines on to the hulk. The squads manage to fight their way to the hulks engine room and manage to detonate the warp engines. The resulting warp implosion completely anilihate the hulk and destroy or severely damage all of its escorts, making it easy for the fleet patrol strike force to mop up. The heroic actions of the two marine squads manage to prevent an ork invasion that would have most likely developed into a proper whaaag but at a steep price as both squads also perished in the blast. So what do you think. C&C appreciated. CC not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The chapter is assigned to the Cibius sector in Segmentum Pacificus to secure lines of supplies and protect shipping from the sector and use its strategic location to intercept and stop any hostile incursions coming into the segmentum both from out the segmentum Solar but in particularly chaos raids coming out the Segmentum Obscura from the Eye of Terror. ~ The chapter have located it’s base in the Arges system for two reasons. The first is that the system is strategically placed for a short striking distance from most of the other systems in the sector and also because several stable warp corridors that leads to other sectors originates in the system allowing the chapter to monitor arrivals. - The problem with this is that's what the Imperial Navy do. (With this in mind... Why is not there a Imperial Navy base?) You can say that they are well-versed in ship-to-ship combat but as the sole purpose this doesn't fare well. I'm not sure if I should write out that the name refers to a Cyclops. - You shouldn't, it's on the reader to catch the reference. The one deviation from the codex is the fleet patrol, a special strike force established to patrol the sector and the most regularly used warp routes out of the sector. - The Chapters utilize the patrols in the space, why do you think they have these Escort ships? ... with a demi-squad (demi sounds better than half. Not sure what it's called for real.) of veterans from the 1st company. - Combat Squad. ++++ Eh, and the purpose of these Patrols is what exactly? Like the image of the Imperial fists and it's twelve successor meeting up to have an contest of champions. Wanted to include that somehow in the chapter. - What about making them IF's successors? It also means that on many occasions the chapter has performed acts of self-sacrifices to protect civilians in a warzone when other military commanders rather would have abandoned them and that the chapter has sternly disapproved of other units or commanders that have pursued military actions with a casual disregard about collateral damage among civilians. - Why? These guys believe in their own "godhood" and because of that, they are proud and arrogant. Or did you forget the paragraph above? ;) There is no sense of defending a planet if you in the process kills off its inhabitants. - What is more important: Forest or trees? Timeline of the chapter’s history. - Because he said it better: Usually, an IA presents the history of a chapter (which demonstrates what the Chapter is now like), then uses the various other sections to highlight that character and explain it further. Putting the history down here defeats that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 The chapter is assigned to the Cibius sector in Segmentum Pacificus to secure lines of supplies and protect shipping from the sector and use its strategic location to intercept and stop any hostile incursions coming into the segmentum both from out the segmentum Solar but in particularly chaos raids coming out the Segmentum Obscura from the Eye of Terror.~ The chapter have located it’s base in the Arges system for two reasons. The first is that the system is strategically placed for a short striking distance from most of the other systems in the sector and also because several stable warp corridors that leads to other sectors originates in the system allowing the chapter to monitor arrivals. - The problem with this is that's what the Imperial Navy do. (With this in mind... Why is not there a Imperial Navy base?) You can say that they are well-versed in ship-to-ship combat but as the sole purpose this doesn't fare well. ++++ Eh, and the purpose of these Patrols is what exactly? Was actually thinking of some way placing a Naval Base of sorts in the system and make the chapter have good relations with the navy. Sort of like the fortress monastery is on its own moon but surrounded by other moons converted into monitor stations and orbital defence stations with docking capabilities run by the navy. Just not sure if SM's would share a system like that with other forces of the imperium. It seems I wasn't entirely clear on what I saw as their primary mission and how it should look like and it's clear that I need to rewrite that in such way that my meaning clearly goes through to the reader. But let me explain how I thought. I'm aware that it's mainly the navy's job to patrol space and that other chapters patrol their own area of space with their escort vessels and while I certainly meant that the chapter would do some of that I didn't meant that they would sail up and down the shipping lanes escorting merchant ships. That is most certainly the navy's job. Instead I foresaw them as being a rapid reaction force that were able to quickly strike at threats before they manage to grow into bigger larger threats that would require a larger and determined response by the imperium. Sort of how real world marine and special forces units operate. Go in and take out the bad guys as soon as they pop up instead of waiting and being forced to go in with whole army latter. Exactly, how space marines should operate. Now the parts of the fleet patrol (I'm soo changing that name) I thought would consists of a combat squad up to one or two squads that would be spread out "patroling" across the sector and key points along the most important routes to and from the sector so that they would be perfectly placed to strike at a developing threat before its grown so large that you need to call in a whole company to deal with it. Sort of like police squad cars circulate neighbourhoods so that when a situation arises they hopefully is close enough to quickly get to the source of trouble and deal with it before it grows so large that you'd need to call in SWAT. Not the best analogy but I hope you get my meaning. Also to use modern examples; if a SM company is a Marine Expeditionary Force able to wage a whole war on its own then I see the "fleet patrol" as a MEU. A rapid response unit to put out bush fires before they become fire storms. But at the same time I want the company to still work like a SM chapter with an area of operation over most of the segmentum pacifica where the chapter wages war at company in support of the forces of the imperium. Like the image of the Imperial fists and it's twelve successor meeting up to have an contest of champions. Wanted to include that somehow in the chapter.- What about making them IF's successors? Haven't decided who to make them successors of but even though I like IF I'll probably pick another chapter because I want to keep the story of battle brothers going into hibernation to rejoin the chapter at sub light speed. I just like the imagery of the Feast of Blades and wanted to include it in the chapter but on a smaller internal scale. Sort of like a pick-nick of knives. :) It also means that on many occasions the chapter has performed acts of self-sacrifices to protect civilians in a warzone when other military commanders rather would have abandoned them and that the chapter has sternly disapproved of other units or commanders that have pursued military actions with a casual disregard about collateral damage among civilians.- Why? These guys believe in their own "godhood" and because of that, they are proud and arrogant. Or did you forget the paragraph above? :) There is no sense of defending a planet if you in the process kills off its inhabitants. - What is more important: Forest or trees? This is what I'm struggling with. And actually Forest or trees is a good analogy. Using it the chapter's belief could be summed up in two sentences. Every tree can grow up into a mighty oak (The Emperor). Without trees there would be no forest. Plus that everything is about a sense of scale. That the chapter would gun through the human shields of their foe without thought or hesitation but wouldn't carpet bomb a town to destroy a dozen enemies that fled to it but they go in after them and do it the hard way. That they would perform Extermianus on a planet if that was the most logical option to serve the good of the majority of man but would also at times stay behind and defend the evacuation of civilians even though military it would serve no strategical or tactical purpose. How do I convey that? Off topic: I find it curious how many on this forum seem to equate Aid with Mercy. Mercy is when you give succour to an enemy. Aid is when you help someone you think deserves it. And people sure as hell are more likely to give aid because they feel superior over the recipient than out of any real humanitarian believes. A racists would still give aid to what he would think was lesser races simply just because he believe he is superior to them. A lot of people use aid as a way to prove their imagined superiority over other people and the recipient of said aid better show proper gratitude and respect if he/she want to receive any more help in the future. On topic again. Timeline of the chapter’s history.- Because he said it better: Usually, an IA presents the history of a chapter (which demonstrates what the Chapter is now like), then uses the various other sections to highlight that character and explain it further. Putting the history down here defeats that. Yeah, I know but as I said this is just a concept to get feedback on ideas. That's why it wasn't in any chronological order. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The Imperial Navy is responsible for the safety and security of Imperial space, the Astartes do not posess fleets of either the correct size or disposition to handle; an Astartes vessel is either an escort of a ship o' the line designed primarily for planetary bombardment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Quick question. Since this is the first time I'm writing an Ia like this should I post any changes I do in the first original post or just add new version in new posts in the thread? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 If it was an entire IA as a draft, I'd put it all in the first post. If you are drafting by section, add each section as a new post until it is finished and then you can add that section to post one as part of the formal IA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generating Random Name... Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You can add updates to the origional post, but it won't take it back to 1st page so also post saying what you've done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 If it was an entire IA as a draft, I'd put it all in the first post. If you are drafting by section, add each section as a new post until it is finished and then you can add that section to post one as part of the formal IA. Think I'm going to try this section by section and see how it works. Plz, tell me if it gets too confusing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Right, rewrote the origin, home world and organization so that hopefully it will now be clearer what I meant the chapter to be doing and focusing on. Especially changed fleet patrol to fleet marines because I think the old name caused some confusion. Hopefully, the new name will make it clearer that while they protect the shipping lanes they do it the marine way and not as the navy would do it. The new name still suck and needs work. Also added a more clearer and proper reason for the location of their home world. For a longer explanation on how I mean see my second post here: [Linky] (can't get the link to work properly. Now it's opens a new window. Sorry about that) Origin The chapter was founded during the 22th Founding partly to bolster the numbers of chapters after the disastrous last founding in response to the troubles during the age of apostasy and partly to make sure it was still possible to succeed with new foundings. The chapter is assigned to the Cibius sector in Segmentum Pacificus use it strategic location to intercept and stop any hostile incursions coming into the segmentum pacificus, both from the segmentum Solar but in particularly chaos raids coming out the Segmentum Obscura from the Eye of Terror. In addition they have been charge with securing lines of supplies from the sector and eliminating any threats to shipping in the important sector. Homeworld The chapter has its fortress monastery uninhabitable Arges system on largest moon around the Gas giant Arges. Like Jupiter in the Solar system Arges too have an “eye” consisting of an enormous eternal storm. The difference is that Arges “eye” sits across the gas giant’s equator and covers almost a quarter of the giant’s surface. The chapter has located its base in the Arges system for two reasons. The first is that the system is strategically placed for a short striking distance from most of the other systems in the sector allowing it to respond quickly to any threats to any of the sectors vital systems but also because several stable warp corridors that leads to other sectors originates in the system place in the chapter in a perfect position to ambush any hostile forces before they even become a threat to another system. The chapter also maintains a half dozen chapter chapels on the planets they recruit from. Organisation The chapter is a mostly codex faithful chapter though when it comes to markings they follow only the spirit of the codex instead of the letter. The one deviation from the codex is the Fleet Marines, a rapid response force divided into smaller strike teams on constant patrol along the sector and the most regularly used warp routes out of the sector so that there would always be a strike team nearby to respond to smaller threats with lethal force before any one threat can grow so large that it would take a large determined effort of the Imperium to combat it. The Fleet Marines is also charged with maintaining the chapter chapels of the chapter. The Fleet Marines consists of 1 squad seconded from each of the reserve companies and the scout company with a combat-squad of veterans from the 1st company. This force is in turn often broken down in several smaller parts with the veterans sprinkled out as commanders. Through hard lessons the chapter has found that having the reserve companies permanently under strength have had detrimental effects during protracted campaigns combating foes in the segmentum while at the same time discharging their duty to making sure that nothing threatens the vital supplies coming out of the Cibius sector. Therefore the chapter has increased each reserve company with 1 squad leaving them at eleven squads instead of the Codex ten. The fleet marines also mean that the chapter have a higher than normal complement of strike vessels, especially in regard of marine frigates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2655623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Instead I foresaw them as being a rapid reaction force that were able to quickly strike at threats before they manage to grow into bigger larger threats that would require a larger and determined response by the imperium. Sort of how real world marine and special forces units operate. Go in and take out the bad guys as soon as they pop up instead of waiting and being forced to go in with whole army latter. Exactly, how space marines should operate. Now the parts of the fleet patrol (I'm soo changing that name) I thought would consists of a combat squad up to one or two squads that would be spread out "patroling" across the sector and key points along the most important routes to and from the sector so that they would be perfectly placed to strike at a developing threat before its grown so large that you need to call in a whole company to deal with it. Sort of like police squad cars circulate neighbourhoods so that when a situation arises they hopefully is close enough to quickly get to the source of trouble and deal with it before it grows so large that you'd need to call in SWAT. Not the best analogy but I hope you get my meaning. Also to use modern examples; if a SM company is a Marine Expeditionary Force able to wage a whole war on its own then I see the "fleet patrol" as a MEU. A rapid response unit to put out bush fires before they become fire storms. Well, you have there the PDF(= Planetary Defence Forces) and Adeptus Arbites. The PDF is just Imperial Guard under different name. Although people for some strange reason think that they are inferior to IG. The Arbites are mishmash of police, SWAT and gestapo. They are here to enforce Lex Imperialis, investigate the crimes against Imperium and police the citizens of Imperium. Oh, and they have entire fleets and armies of their own. Both of these organisations(+ Inquisition) are quite capable of quelling (= read throttling) the rebellions or uprising at the beginning. Proof: Imperium is still here after 10,000 years. The Astartes are called, when these guys are unable to handle the situation. In most case this means full-blown planetary rebellion or >insert race or faction< invasion. In such case anything short of Battle Company is un-sufficient force. To be honest, this is a problem not only yours, but many DIYers too, they think of the Adeptus Astartes in vacuum. But the Space Marines aren't independent body. No, they are part of bigger organisation, the Imperium of Man. Every member of this machine has its place and for the machine to work properly everyone have to know their place and role. Any messing in the areas of interest you aren't authorized with is damaging and hampering the work of the Machine in long term run. This is what I'm struggling with. And actually Forest or trees is a good analogy. Using it the chapter's belief could be summed up in two sentences. Every tree can grow up into a mighty oak (The Emperor). Without trees there would be no forest. Plus that everything is about a sense of scale. That the chapter would gun through the human shields of their foe without thought or hesitation but wouldn't carpet bomb a town to destroy a dozen enemies that fled to it but they go in after them and do it the hard way. That they would perform Extermianus on a planet if that was the most logical option to serve the good of the majority of man but would also at times stay behind and defend the evacuation of civilians even though military it would serve no strategical or tactical purpose. How do I convey that? Well, they are no different from the majority of Chapters. Don't forget the Iron Hands and Marines Malevolent are exeptions, not the rule. The Salamanders are exception too, because they are more considerate and go farther with their help. A racists would still give aid to what he would think was lesser races simply just because he believe he is superior to them. A lot of people use aid as a way to prove their imagined superiority over other people and the recipient of said aid better show proper gratitude and respect if he/she want to receive any more help in the future. Weeeell, the history, little racist in me and current situation in my country want to disagree with you, but anyway.... :wallbash: The Fleet Marines consists of 1 squad seconded from each of the reserve companies and the scout company with a combat-squad of veterans from the 1st company. This force is in turn often broken down in several smaller parts with the veterans sprinkled out as commanders. So, you have like 40 marines, 10 Scouts and 5 Veterans "often broken down in several smaller parts with the veterans sprinkled out as commanders". Thus: 1 Veteran, 10 Marines and 2 Scouts in average. Now, tell me what do you want combat with this complement of soldiers? Second, the patrols aren't actually *that* different from regular modus operandi of Chapter. Observe: The vessel, although larger than any genuine gunboats likely to be in use, is relativelly small by Space Marines standards, seldom carrying much more than a single squad of Space Marines who are invariably spread acrosss its decks and control centres... *snip* ... As such, the Gladius lacks the genuine punch of other Space Marines vessels, and is of little use in their assaults, but instead earns itself an admirable place as the foremost ship of the line when it comes to more mundane border patrols and deep space blocade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2656355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 Well, you have there the PDF(= Planetary Defence Forces) and Adeptus Arbites.The PDF is just Imperial Guard under different name. Although people for some strange reason think that they are inferior to IG. The Arbites are mishmash of police, SWAT and gestapo. They are here to enforce Lex Imperialis, investigate the crimes against Imperium and police the citizens of Imperium. Oh, and they have entire fleets and armies of their own. Both of these organisations(+ Inquisition) are quite capable of quelling (= read throttling) the rebellions or uprising at the beginning. Proof: Imperium is still here after 10,000 years. The Astartes are called, when these guys are unable to handle the situation. In most case this means full-blown planetary rebellion or >insert race or faction< invasion. In such case anything short of Battle Company is un-sufficient force. To be honest, this is a problem not only yours, but many DIYers too, they think of the Adeptus Astartes in vacuum. But the Space Marines aren't independent body. No, they are part of bigger organisation, the Imperium of Man. Every member of this machine has its place and for the machine to work properly everyone have to know their place and role. Any messing in the areas of interest you aren't authorized with is damaging and hampering the work of the Machine in long term run. I'm well aware that SM's chapters doesn't exists in a power vaccum. It's just that most TT players seem to think that space marines are just another ground pounding army that consist of a bunch of well armoured and admittedly super human grunts. Because that's how space marines are portrayed on the tabletop. Except if we look at the fluff and all the BL's books Marines is instead portrayed as elite special forces. They are the force recon, the delta force of the Imperium. Their job isn't to fight whole wars of invasions or quell whole planetary rebellions. Their job is to be a precision assault force that secure the beachhead for the rest of Imperial forces, that perform commando strikes at the enemy's command and supply structure, that spearhead assaults of fixed fortifications. The PDF is the national guard of the imperium with the same training but less experince than the IG. That's the guy you call in during floods or if you get invaded. That Arbites is the FBI, the guard dogs that keep the population in check and corruption down and while their SWAT teams is great at taking down criminals they are way out of their deep against a military target. The Inquisition is the CIA that are great at rooting out the foes and enemies that hide within and without the Imperium and while they certainly have a few wet teams to take the occasional cult leader they certainly doesn't have the ability to handle a large body of foes but is then forced to call on outside resources. Even if you add the IG and the Navy there is one role none of these organisation is suitable to handle. That of being able to head deep into hostile terrain to assault a couple of caves filled with a few hundred terrorist armed with military grade heavy weapons to take out a terrorist leader. The role of elite special forces which is what space marines foremost are. Just look at the Chamber Millitants like the DW or GKs. I want my Chapter to convey the role of being elite special forces operatives some way with a focus on pirate hunting and anti-shipping. I want, because of the importance of the sector, that there should always be an element of strike ready special forces in the form of chapter marines nearby that the navy, inquisitors or other Imperial personnel can call on to act against any threats their own assets would be hard put to deal with on their own. So, you have like 40 marines, 10 Scouts and 5 Veterans "often broken down in several smaller parts with the veterans sprinkled out as commanders". Thus:1 Veteran, 10 Marines and 2 Scouts in average. Now, tell me what do you want combat with this complement of soldiers? On the tabletop nothing. But according to the fluff that's complement is worth around 1000 IG Troopers. Not to mention that would be 1000 Troopers with special operations training. So I'd expect them to be able to assault and destroy a small pirate base. Board and capture a star ship. Strike and eliminate the fortified position of the command of a nascent rebellion. Well, they are no different from the majority of Chapters. Don't forget the Iron Hands and Marines Malevolent are exeptions, not the rule. The Salamanders are exception too, because they are more considerate and go farther with their help. Point. But it's still hard to find the balance between uncaring hardasses and cuddly softies. Second, the patrols aren't actually *that* different from regular modus operandi of Chapter. Observe:The vessel, although larger than any genuine gunboats likely to be in use, is relativelly small by Space Marines standards, seldom carrying much more than a single squad of Space Marines who are invariably spread acrosss its decks and control centres... *snip* ... As such, the Gladius lacks the genuine punch of other Space Marines vessels, and is of little use in their assaults, but instead earns itself an admirable place as the foremost ship of the line when it comes to more mundane border patrols and deep space blocade. Cool. I missed that when I glanced through the book earlier. Should really find some way to add that the chapter have a high number of Novas though. :D Though tbh, I could drop the extra squads in the reserve companies and even the special detachment of "fleet marines" as long as I some way could show that one of the chapters most common roles is act as small unit SOF strike teams who's main purpose is to assist Imperial commanders in the sector with eliminating "military" threats and that one of the chapter's most important duties is pirate hunting and along side the navy securing the shipping lines from the sector. After all if the chapter failed at this hundred of planets would starve Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2656579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 That Arbites is the FBI, the guard dogs that keep the population in check and corruption down and while their SWAT teams is great at taking down criminals they are way out of their deep against a military target. Actually, the Arbites are often the first line of defence against planetary rebellion and are more than capable of military - scale reprisals. Their Precinct houses are often the most heavily fortified constructions inside of an Imperial City bar the local representatives palace itself. While they lack the heavy armour and equipment of the larger military organizations, on a man-to-man basis they have far superior equipment and often training to the Imperial Guard (at least in their militant arms). In an urban environment the Arbites are a heavily armoured shock assault force, they just can't compete in a war zone as their structure is relatively small compared to the other organizations. They see the first infractions against Imperial rule and are often the ones that deal with local insurrection before it grows too large. The governor is funneling the best recruits out of the PDF tithe and into a local paramilitary contrary to Imperial Law? The Arbites assault the palace (if need be), kill the errant unit and arrest or execute the governor. These aren't in any way 'cops'. They enforce the laws of the Imperium, not local planetary law. If anything upsets the rule of Imperial law, they step in, no matter who is disrupting it. Local law enforcement often imitates the Arbites, but none carry the same weight. /rant Sorry, I'm a bit of an Arbites fan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2656592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The Inquisition is the CIA that are great at rooting out the foes and enemies that hide within and without the Imperium and while they certainly have a few wet teams to take the occasional cult leader they certainly doesn't have the ability to handle a large body of foes but is then forced to call on outside resources. Actually, the Inquisition has a whole regiments of Storm Troopers at their disposal and the Chambers Militant are under direct control of Inquisition. That of being able to head deep into hostile terrain to assault a couple of caves filled with a few hundred terrorist armed with military grade heavy weapons to take out a terrorist leader. Hmmm, no. The teams of Arbitrators and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are trained for exactly this purpose. Nice try, young padawan. :lol: I want my Chapter to convey the role of being elite special forces operatives some way with a focus on pirate hunting and anti-shipping. This is the duty and purpose of Imperial Navy. Really, if the Imperium wants increase the security of shipping, then it will increase the number of ships in this sector. I want, because of the importance of the sector, that there should always be an element of strike ready special forces in the form of chapter marines nearby that the navy, inquisitors or other Imperial personnel can call on to act against any threats their own assets would be hard put to deal with on their own. AHEM, so you do think that the nascent rebellions and pirates are dangerous threats? In what sector of Imperium do you live? 1 Veteran, 10 Marines and 2 Scouts in average. Now, tell me what do you want combat with this complement of soldiers? On the tabletop nothing. But according to the fluff that's complement is worth around 1000 IG Troopers. Not to mention that would be 1000 Troopers with special operations training. *cough* "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops." ~ attributed to Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists Board and capture a star ship. Strike and eliminate the fortified position of the command of a nascent rebellion. - What ship do you have on mind? Anything larger than Escort is out of question, for the simple fact of blasting your puny ship into oblivion. And even with Escort this wouldn't be a walk in rose-garden. - As the GHY said, Arbites will deal with this kind of problem, long before you get there. Should really find some way to add that the chapter have a high number of Novas though. :lol: Nova is rare ship and not something well-received by Inquisition and Navy, be careful. Though tbh, I could drop the extra squads in the reserve companies and even the special detachment of "fleet marines" as long as I some way could show that one of the chapters most common roles is act as small unit SOF strike teams who's main purpose is to assist Imperial commanders in the sector with eliminating "military" threats and that one of the chapter's most important duties is pirate hunting and along side the navy securing the shipping lines from the sector. After all if the chapter failed at this hundred of planets would starve. Waste of Emperor's Finest. Really, there is like one Space Marine per million words of Imperium and your marines are wasting their time and effort with the duties of others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2656842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 That Arbites is the FBI, the guard dogs that keep the population in check and corruption down and while their SWAT teams is great at taking down criminals they are way out of their deep against a military target. Actually, the Arbites are often the first line of defence against planetary rebellion and are more than capable of military - scale reprisals. Their Precinct houses are often the most heavily fortified constructions inside of an Imperial City bar the local representatives palace itself. While they lack the heavy armour and equipment of the larger military organizations, on a man-to-man basis they have far superior equipment and often training to the Imperial Guard (at least in their militant arms). In an urban environment the Arbites are a heavily armoured shock assault force, they just can't compete in a war zone as their structure is relatively small compared to the other organizations. They see the first infractions against Imperial rule and are often the ones that deal with local insurrection before it grows too large. The governor is funneling the best recruits out of the PDF tithe and into a local paramilitary contrary to Imperial Law? The Arbites assault the palace (if need be), kill the errant unit and arrest or execute the governor. These aren't in any way 'cops'. They enforce the laws of the Imperium, not local planetary law. If anything upsets the rule of Imperial law, they step in, no matter who is disrupting it. Local law enforcement often imitates the Arbites, but none carry the same weight. /rant Sorry, I'm a bit of an Arbites fan. Sort of of the point I was making. That Arbites while extremely capable at their tasks they doesn't have the military abilities of a unit specifically geared to military warfare. And certainly nothing equal to what space marines are capable of. (And i never said they were cops. Neither is the FBI. The FBI enforce the federal law over all of the USA and not local county laws. There was a reason to my madness.) The Inquisition is the CIA that are great at rooting out the foes and enemies that hide within and without the Imperium and while they certainly have a few wet teams to take the occasional cult leader they certainly doesn't have the ability to handle a large body of foes but is then forced to call on outside resources. Actually, the Inquisition has a whole regiments of Storm Troopers at their disposal and the Chambers Militant are under direct control of Inquisition. Granted. But both the DW and the GK ( which I mentioned in the next paragraph) operate mostly in squad size units and there are ample examples where inquisitors requests the aid of a chapter to combat a threat because he doesn't have accesses to the resources of his order. And seeing the size of the Imperum, the number of planets, the number of inquisitors and the size of the DW and the GK, logic dictates that in the majority of cases when space marines fight at an inquisitor's side they belong to a regular chapter. That of being able to head deep into hostile terrain to assault a couple of caves filled with a few hundred terrorist armed with military grade heavy weapons to take out a terrorist leader. Hmmm, no. The teams of Arbitrators and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are trained for exactly this purpose. Nice try, young padawan. :D Are you telling me that arbitrators and Strom troopers are better at this than space marines or pointing out that there are other organizations that are able to handle that sort of missions? As for the second, I never said that there wasn't others that couldn't handle that sort of missions. I just pointed out that such missions is what the space marines excel at. They are the best shock troops and special ops troops ever created. They excel at spearheading assaults to establish beachheads or take fortifications or to strike deep behind the enemy's line at the an enemy's command and supply structure. There are plenty of other organisations that can do so too but none is as accomplished at it as space marines. I want my Chapter to convey the role of being elite special forces operatives some way with a focus on pirate hunting and anti-shipping. This is the duty and purpose of Imperial Navy. Really, if the Imperium wants increase the security of shipping, then it will increase the number of ships in this sector. ...Astartes vessels will undertake patrol operations to secure a system against pirates or raiders for limited duration. However they obviously view this as a role which should fall to the Imperial Fleet... -C:SM 3rd Ed. Firstly, it's obviously a role the overlaps. And while I'll freely admit that many chapters would see this beneath them for a prolonged time there is nothing that say that for some chapters can pursue that role more vigorously. But finally this is role where the strengths of each organisation would be greatly augmented by cooperation. The navy excel at naval action while the marines excel at boarding actions. I never imagined my chapter to act alone. 1 Veteran, 10 Marines and 2 Scouts in average. Now, tell me what do you want combat with this complement of soldiers? On the tabletop nothing. But according to the fluff that's complement is worth around 1000 IG Troopers. Not to mention that would be 1000 Troopers with special operations training. *cough* "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops." ~ attributed to Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists I'll admit I remember that wrong (or actually more likely calculated that wrong. Math is not my strong side). It's still worth more 100 other troops. That's a company worth of storm troopers and with better equipment than any other force. I want, because of the importance of the sector, that there should always be an element of strike ready special forces in the form of chapter marines nearby that the navy, inquisitors or other Imperial personnel can call on to act against any threats their own assets would be hard put to deal with on their own. AHEM, so you do think that the nascent rebellions and pirates are dangerous threats? In what sector of Imperium do you live? Though tbh, I could drop the extra squads in the reserve companies and even the special detachment of "fleet marines" as long as I some way could show that one of the chapters most common roles is act as small unit SOF strike teams who's main purpose is to assist Imperial commanders in the sector with eliminating "military" threats and that one of the chapter's most important duties is pirate hunting and along side the navy securing the shipping lines from the sector. After all if the chapter failed at this hundred of planets would starve. Waste of Emperor's Finest. Really, there is like one Space Marine per million words of Imperium and your marines are wasting their time and effort with the duties of others. No, they are not dangerous threats, yet. Which is rather the point. The space marines follows a tactical and strategical codex on how to wage war written by the brightest military mind the galaxy have ever seen. It would be very odd if it didn't state that the best way to deal with threats is to eliminate them before they become dangerous. A pre-emptive strike with 10 marines should be preferable to having to send in a whole company of marines when the threat have become dangerous. As for wasting their time and effort; we're talking about around forty marines spread out over a sector with between 50 to 100 inhabited system with hundreds of billions people living there. If these marines can strike and eliminate nascent threats before those threats become so large that they would require the intervention of a whole company of marines or even an invasion of IG doesn't that mean their use is both more economical and efficient than if they did nothing until they had to go in with a whole company to fight? [Board and capture a star ship... - What ship do you have on mind? Anything larger than Escort is out of question, for the simple fact of blasting your puny ship into oblivion. And even with Escort this wouldn't be a walk in rose-garden. Actually, that doesn't make any sense. First off, let's make it clear that we're talking about boarding actions. Not naval actions. The secondly, while speaking about who different organisations in the Imperium have different roles and duties, the boarding of ships is irrevocably the role of the Adeptus Astartes. Now even if their name Space Marines were a clue, let's look at some facts. Their ships, from battle barges to frigates are designed to wither enemy fire long enough to take the space marines into striking range. Said ships is also commanded by beings with super human tactical acumen that will deply said ship in such manner that they have a high probability of success when it comes to delivering the marines into strike range. They also have specialized equipment such as boarding torpedoes, thunderhawk gunships and even teleportation capability all designed to deliver the boarding parties onto an enemy vessel. Equipment which other organisations lack. As for numbers; two words. Space Hulk. If a squad of space marines can board and destroy a space hulk, granted in tactical dreadnought armour, then a squad of power armoured can board and capture anything up to a cruiser and they'd probably have a good chance at scuttling a battleship too. Especially when on a ship an enemy's larger numbers won't matter as much since it won't possible for him to bring all those numbers to bear at the same time against the boarders. There are plenty of examples of singles squads of marines boarding and crippling huge ships. In Warriors of Ultramar a squad of DW boards and destroys a hive ship. In Battle for the Abyss a couple of combat squads of loyal marines manage to bring down what is described as a battleship size XXL. Look, I know that a lot of what I suggested overlaps with what other Imperial organisations also does but then the world of the Imperium isn't clean cut and a lot of duties for one organisation often overlaps with another. Arbites duties overlaps with both local law and Inquistions. The Ig's duties overlaps with the space marines and the PDFs. The space marines duties overlaps with the Navy's. That's one of the reasons why there is so much internal strife in the Imperium. All I'm saying is that at least in the fluff let the marines be marines. Elite super human warriors and not the cannon fodder from the table top. A dedicated naval formation, the Quillborn were true marines, fighting ship-to-ship, completely at home battling through the cramped structure of a starship. -Battle of the abyss. pg.174 Replace the name with my chapter and that's what I mean. 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Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Sort of of the point I was making. That Arbites while extremely capable at their tasks they doesn't have the military abilities of a unit specifically geared to military warfare. And certainly nothing equal to what space marines are capable of. (And i never said they were cops. Neither is the FBI. The FBI enforce the federal law over all of the USA and not local county laws. There was a reason to my madness.) No I know what you were driving at, but if they have the means and ability to unseat a hostile planetary governor then they are supremely well equipped and trained. The FBI is made up of agents, investigators and experts in various investigatory fields. A rather small percentage of FBI personnel are tactical response teams which is the organizational polar opposite of the Arbites. They don't survive on their own on a field larger than their precinct house can handle, sure. But the same can be said of any other self-contained military unit you can compare them to. All I was saying is that you're selling the Arbites short. ;) While I'm really just nitpicking, no true member of the Liber can ever resist the opportunity to pontificate. :tu: In the end it doesn't really affect your article so I'll drop it. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2659264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Sort of of the point I was making. That Arbites while extremely capable at their tasks they doesn't have the military abilities of a unit specifically geared to military warfare. And certainly nothing equal to what space marines are capable of. (And i never said they were cops. Neither is the FBI. The FBI enforce the federal law over all of the USA and not local county laws. There was a reason to my madness.) Judge Dread wants a few words with you... -_- That of being able to head deep into hostile terrain to assault a couple of caves filled with a few hundred terrorist armed with military grade heavy weapons to take out a terrorist leader. Hmmm, no. The teams of Arbitrators and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are trained for exactly this purpose. Nice try, young padawan. :D Are you telling me that arbitrators and Strom troopers are better at this than space marines or pointing out that there are other organizations that are able to handle that sort of missions? As for the second, I never said that there wasn't others that couldn't handle that sort of missions. I just pointed out that such missions is what the space marines excel at. They are the best shock troops and special ops troops ever created. They excel at spearheading assaults to establish beachheads or take fortifications or to strike deep behind the enemy's line at the an enemy's command and supply structure. There are plenty of other organisations that can do so too but none is as accomplished at it as space marines. Lol. You are looking at it from wrong angle. Yes, they are best and excel at this *and* because of that, you don't call them every time. You call SWAT, when you really need them, not when you want to get that cat from tree. You don't call the firefighters when your blanket catch fire. You call them, when your house is ablaze. Really, others can do this job and they are doing just fine. Astartes are called for serious ass-kicking, not for doing homework of someone else. Why send army of Chuck Norris, when army of Rambo is just fine? Firstly, it's obviously a role the overlaps. And while I'll freely admit that many chapters would see this beneath them for a prolonged time there is nothing that say that for some chapters can pursue that role more vigorously. But finally this is role where the strengths of each organisation would be greatly augmented by cooperation. The navy excel at naval action while the marines excel at boarding actions. I never imagined my chapter to act alone. Your Chapter is founded for purpose of protecting shipping lines and fighting off pirates. This is responsibility of Imperial Navy in the first place, thus why is this Chapter founded instead of increasing the Imperial Navy presence in the said sector? I'll admit I remember that wrong (or actually more likely calculated that wrong. Math is not my strong side).It's still worth more 100 other troops. That's a company worth of storm troopers and with better equipment than any other force. *cough* Multiplicator of force is exponential, not linear. *cough* Company of Storm Troopers is small drop in the ocean. No, they are not dangerous threats, yet. Which is rather the point. The space marines follows a tactical and strategical codex on how to wage war written by the brightest military mind the galaxy have ever seen. It would be very odd if it didn't state that the best way to deal with threats is to eliminate them before they become dangerous. A pre-emptive strike with 10 marines should be preferable to having to send in a whole company of marines when the threat have become dangerous. As for wasting their time and effort; we're talking about around forty marines spread out over a sector with between 50 to 100 inhabited system with hundreds of billions people living there. If these marines can strike and eliminate nascent threats before those threats become so large that they would require the intervention of a whole company of marines or even an invasion of IG doesn't that mean their use is both more economical and efficient than if they did nothing until they had to go in with a whole company to fight? It is the waste of time and effort because it's homework of someone else. Actually, that doesn't make any sense.First off, let's make it clear that we're talking about boarding actions. Not naval actions. The secondly, while speaking about who different organisations in the Imperium have different roles and duties, the boarding of ships is irrevocably the role of the Adeptus Astartes. Now even if their name Space Marines were a clue, let's look at some facts. Their ships, from battle barges to frigates are designed to wither enemy fire long enough to take the space marines into striking range. Said ships is also commanded by beings with super human tactical acumen that will deply said ship in such manner that they have a high probability of success when it comes to delivering the marines into strike range. They also have specialized equipment such as boarding torpedoes, thunderhawk gunships and even teleportation capability all designed to deliver the boarding parties onto an enemy vessel. Equipment which other organisations lack. The blasting your puny ship into oblivion preceeds the boarding action. It is true that the Astartes ships are designed to deliver their cargo into striking distance, however this apply for the Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, not for the Escorts. The Escorts are designed as Gunships. The majority of Battleships and Cruisers has the ability to blast your ship into oblivion twice. Really, the Escort is not the best solution for this situation. As for numbers; two words. Space Hulk.If a squad of space marines can board and destroy a space hulk, granted in tactical dreadnought armour, then a squad of power armoured can board and capture anything up to a cruiser and they'd probably have a good chance at scuttling a battleship too. Especially when on a ship an enemy's larger numbers won't matter as much since it won't possible for him to bring all those numbers to bear at the same time against the boarders. There are plenty of examples of singles squads of marines boarding and crippling huge ships. Space Hulk doesn't fight back, you know. Battleship does and it has range and firepower on its side. Board&Destroy is different (and arguably easier) than a Board&Capture. It also depends, what you are going to fight. Eldar vessels are nigh to impossible to board, Genestealers are more than match for Space Marine and Necrons, Orks and Chaos Marines are chapter for itself. A dedicated naval formation, the Quillborn were true marines, fighting ship-to-ship, completely at home battling through the cramped structure of a starship. -Battle of the abyss. pg.174 Replace the name with my chapter and that's what I mean. How many of them again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2659423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Lol. You are looking at it from wrong angle.Yes, they are best and excel at this *and* because of that, you don't call them every time. You call SWAT, when you really need them, not when you want to get that cat from tree. You don't call the firefighters when your blanket catch fire. You call them, when your house is ablaze. Really, others can do this job and they are doing just fine. Astartes are called for serious ass-kicking, not for doing homework of someone else. Why send army of Chuck Norris, when army of Rambo is just fine? It is the waste of time and effort because it's homework of someone else. So basically your argument is that because there are other organisation in the Imperium that can do the same thing as the astartes there is no need for the astartes to do them. Seeing how the Imperial guard can wage war as well as the astartes then there isn't really a reason for the astartes to do that either? And sure at times sending in the Astartes is an overkill but similar logic dictates that considering the size and width of a sector there will be times when sending in a small group astartes would accomplish an mission more efficient than if another equally suited organisation had tried. After all the reason there is an Imperial Guard, Inquisitorial storm troopers and even a navy is because there simple isn't enough Astartes to go around. Not because those organisations can replace the Astartes. So how can it be wasteful using an asset like the Astartes if there is an opportunity to do so on a mission they would be better suited for than another organisation. (Let's just agree that the guys in charge of the imperium have enough common sense to make that distinction.) Your Chapter is founded for purpose of protecting shipping lines and fighting off pirates. This is responsibility of Imperial Navy in the first place, thus why is this Chapter founded instead of increasing the Imperial Navy presence in the said sector? Actually, the idea was for the chapter to be founded to protect a specific sector and to ensure that the supplies coming out of the sector would flow without interruption. How exactly this was done was unspecified but that there would be a dedicated patrol force and that it would have given the chapter an expertise focused in pirate hunting and anti-shipping(boarding actions) tactics. In fact for the most part the majority of the chapter would operate as a normal codex chapter protecting the north-western fringe of segmentum pacificus. *cough* Multiplicator of force is exponential, not linear. *cough* Company of Storm Troopers is small drop in the ocean. Not sure what your point is. Do you mean that a squad of 10 space marines is not as "effective" as a company of storm troopers or that they are more "effective"? The blasting your puny ship into oblivion preceeds the boarding action. It is true that the Astartes ships are designed to deliver their cargo into striking distance, however this apply for the Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, not for the Escorts. The Escorts are designed as Gunships.The majority of Battleships and Cruisers has the ability to blast your ship into oblivion twice. Really, the Escort is not the best solution for this situation. Granted, IF it was operating solo. Operating in a squadron with other escorts or even more likely along side assets from the Navy the chances for success all comes down to tactics. But strike cruiser and battle barges is even more ideal. There is nothing to prevent having marines patrol in strike cruisers. The Ultramarines have 11 capital ships, plenty to give each company their own ride and still have one over for patrol duties. Crusading chapters have even more capital ships so it shouldn't be anything odd with a chapter having 14 which is all it would take. A dedicated naval formation, the Quillborn were true marines, fighting ship-to-ship, completely at home battling through the cramped structure of a starship. -Battle of the abyss. pg.174 Replace the name with my chapter and that's what I mean. How many of them again? According to the book the Quillborn was a chapter of the word bearers legion. Though I doubt they fought as a whole chapter during boarding actions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2660054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 So basically your argument is that because there are other organisation in the Imperium that can do the same thing as the astartes there is no need for the astartes to do them. Seeing how the Imperial guard can wage war as well as the astartes then there isn't really a reason for the astartes to do that either? I'm saying, "There are other organisation that can do the same thing as the Astartes, so the Astartes don't need to bother with such thing." Astartes are Rapid Strike nad Fast Response Force. They are capable of solving problems before the hammer of Imperial Guard struck. When the Joker's ass needs kicking, you don't call a Superman. Right now, right here is this guy called Batman and he is more than capable to solve the problem with Joker. Call the Superman, when your Planet is threatened by Aliens with Big Crazy Space Bats or something similarly horrible. After all the reason there is an Imperial Guard, Inquisitorial storm troopers and even a navy is because there simple isn't enough Astartes to go around. Not because those organisations can replace the Astartes. Actually, the Imperial Guard with all their machines, numbers and guns replaced the Astartes as the main fighting force. The Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are there, because the Inquisition is full of paranoid individuals. And Navy has different purpose than Astartes, see below. Actually, the idea was for the chapter to be founded to protect a specific sector and to ensure that the supplies coming out of the sector would flow without interruption. How exactly this was done was unspecified but that there would be a dedicated patrol force and that it would have given the chapter an expertise focused in pirate hunting and anti-shipping(boarding actions) tactics. In fact for the most part the majority of the chapter would operate as a normal codex chapter protecting the north-western fringe of segmentum pacificus. Fighting in space is purpose and duty of Imperial Navy. Astartes are fighting with foes on the ground, with occasional ship-to-ship combat. Not sure what your point is. Do you mean that a squad of 10 space marines is not as "effective" as a company of storm troopers or that they are more "effective"? Depends on how many Storm Troopers is a Space Marine worth. :P Granted, IF it was operating solo. Operating in a squadron with other escorts or even more likely along side assets from the Navy the chances for success all comes down to tactics. But strike cruiser and battle barges is even more ideal. There is nothing to prevent having marines patrol in strike cruisers. The Ultramarines have 11 capital ships, plenty to give each company their own ride and still have one over for patrol duties. Crusading chapters have even more capital ships so it shouldn't be anything odd with a chapter having 14 which is all it would take. The ships of Imperial Navy are designed for space combat, the Astartes ships are designed for support of planetary invasion(s). Once again, using Chapter for shipping protection and anti-pirates duties is bad investments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2661004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Ok, let's take a step back. On the whole, NightwranII is on the money. Generally, Space Marines are hardcore planetary strike forces and excel in this role because of the nature of their organization, tactical specialties and equipment. In a fleet-to-fleet engagement Astartes ships, while not built with a Naval focus, are still incredibly powerful warships, though the Imperial Navy can do anything the Astartes can do and do it better in the broader sense of naval warfare. You want your chapter to be true 'marines' and specialize in boarding actions and combat in the void? That's fine. There are other official chapters that do this so there is a precedent set. However, these official chapters do not try to fill a void or role that is better left to other organizations that are built specifically for these situations. Also, there is less than one space marine in total for every world in the Imperium. Each and every world inside the Imperium can be struck at any time, from any angle by almost any foe and the Space Marines are there to respond to only the most critical and desperate of these collective crisis. If your chapter is guarding space lanes and tackling troublesome pirates, they aren't doing their job. Worlds will burn while your marines bugger around in the void trying to catch criminals like the keystone cops. I apologize for the sarcasm but the fact is that it's not their role. They are The special forces of the special forces the Imperium can bring to bear, they are a resource so valuable that for them to behave in such a way would be dereliction of duty. Let's take a look at the US Navy SEALs for example. They are a top tier special forces group that is part of the US Navy. They draw many of their recruits from the US Marines, an infantry arm of the Navy. While the SEALs are indeed trained to board enemy ships and disable enemy command/control or any other objective they have been given, they aren't there to clean out a ship that would have up to a couple of hundred of sailors on board. Capture and Hold is, as NightwranII said, extremely hard while not to mention, not the role of the Special Forces, usually. The SEALs though, while they can indeed board enemy ships and commit sabotage, will I would suggest almost always operate on land because that is where the enemy lives, that is where the missions take place because that is where the people are. Space Marines operate planetside because the worlds themselves are the key to the Imperium. They kill and disable their enemy in space so that they can attack them where they live, or so that they can deploy in opposition to forces trying to attack one of their own worlds. This is getting a bit ranty so I'll end it here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2661041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Right, then how would a chapter go about the business of executing the following task? To protect a specific sector and to ensure that the supplies coming out of the sector would flow without interruption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2661054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 To protect a specific sector and to ensure that the supplies coming out of the sector would flow without interruption. The problem is that Astartes aren't a static strike force. If this sector is exceedingly special in the resources it produces and is regularly bombarded by high level threats that warrant the constant presence of some Astartes then yes, it's possible. However, an entire chapter is a bit of a stretch. Sectors are huge and the crisis' may be many but a single company could likely combat most of what is thrown at them unless a multitude of threats attack at the same time. In the end you're talking about what they do and not about who they are. You could easily dispense with all this faffing around and arguing by explaining how the chapter is more willing to defend the worlds of the Imperium than to go off attacking the enemy and conquering new worlds. Yes you'd have to go into more detail than I have but the fact remains, if this is behavior born of their core character - who they are - then say it. If you explain why the chapter behaves the way it does, it almost doesn't matter what it is their doing. If it fits with who they are and is well justified within the universe then no one will ask too many questions. It's when you get into far too much detail that problems arise. A lot of fluff in 40k is vague at best and at worst totally contradictory. What you need to do is to keep it vague and more on what your chapter is all about, rather than the details of what they do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2661062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Scytha Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 From what you say it sounds like the space marines is a very reactive force. Always arriving to a danger when it already have become a full bloom planetary rebellion or when a planet already have been invaded and never able to act pro-actively to prevent threats from becoming large dangers. Sort of like fire fighters forever rushing to put out one fire after another but never able to prevent a fire from breaking out. Somehow you'd think that superhuman warriors following the ultimate guide to warfare would be a lot more proactive but on the other hand them being purely reactive is very much in tune with the dark gothic entropy of the 40k universe. Anyway rewrote large parts of the concept. Now it barely contains any details. Origin The chapter was founded during the 22th Founding partly to bolster the numbers of chapters after the disastrous last founding in response to the troubles during the age of apostasy and partly to make sure it was still possible to succeed with new foundings. The need for control meant the chapter was under observation from both representatives from the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Inquisition during its founding and for some time afterwards. This sort of close scrutiny could have easily back lashed making the chapter hostile but instead the opposite happened and the chapter learned to work closely together with other branches of the Imperium. The chapter is assigned to the Cibius sector in Segmentum Pacificus and uses its strategic location to defend the north eastern fringe of the segmentum Pacificus. In particular they are charged to intercept and stop any hostile incursions coming into the segmentum pacificus from both the segmentum Solar but above all chaos raids coming out the Segmentum Obscura from the Eye of Terror. In addition they have also been charge with securing the Cibius sector itself and make sure that its vital supplies can flow freely into the rest of the Imperium. Homeworld The chapter has its fortress monastery uninhabitable Tartus system on the largest moon around systems only planet, the gas giant Arges. Like Jupiter in the Solar system Arges too have an “eye” consisting of an enormous eternal storm. The difference is that Arges “eye” sits across the gas giant’s equator and covers almost a quarter of the giant’s surface. The chapter has located its home in the Tartus system for two reasons. The first is that the system is strategically placed for allowing short striking distance to most of the other systems in the sector making it possible to respond quickly to threats in any of the sectors vital systems. The second is because several stable warp corridors from other sectors terminate in the system placing the chapter in a perfect position to ambush any hostile forces before they even become a threat the rest of the system. The Chapter have converted airless moon into an enormous orbital station. Its core riddled with quarters, armories and huge pressurize training chambers while its surface have been converted to docking facilities for the chapters large fleet. Other smaller moons and asteroids around the gas giant have gone through similar conversions turning them into defensive stations and docking facilities for the Imperial Navy’s sector fleet. The chapter also maintains a half dozen chapter chapels on the planets they recruit from. Cibius sector. This gonna be one of those snazzy little sidebars. The cibius sector is located in the segmentum pacificus close where the segmentum intersects with both the segmentum solar and the segmentum Obscura. Though strategically placed its location is not why the small Cibius sector is of vital importance to the Imperium. The primary reason is because it contains an unusually high percentage of high yield agri-worlds and even among the rest of the worlds in the sector the majority export foods stuffs as their major exports. This have led to the sector often being referred to as the bread basket of the Pacificus and food exported from the Cibius sector not only feed hundreds of planets in the segmentum pacificus but large quantities also goes to feed vital worlds in other sectors such as the planets around the Cadian Gate and even Holy Terra itself. Beliefs The chapter believes that the Emperor and the primarchs represent the pinnacle of Man’s development and that the Emperor’s divinity stems from him transcending the bounds of Man as specie. They see themselves blessed by being transformed into Astarte and thus brought closer to the image of the primarchs and the emperor. A belief that grants them an arrogant pride in themselves. At the same time they acknowledge the fact that at least theoretically all humans carry the seed inside them to transcend to such heights, a fact proven by the so called saints of the Imperium, and that the Emperor’s plan before the he suffered the dolorous blow that confined him to the Golden Throne was to create a kingdom that would help usher humanity to their next level of existence. Therefore, any none-enhanced human that loyally serve the Imperum, which in the chapter’s eyes is the part of the Emperor’s plan, from the highest Planetary Governor and naval captain to the lowest Guardsman and farmer at least doesn’t deserve any scorn. At the same time their beliefs makes them abhor the abhumans like ogryns and ratlings and they hate mutants more than any other foe of the Imperium. Organisation The chapter is a mostly codex faithful chapter though when it comes to markings they follow only the spirit of the codex instead of the letter. It’s also not uncommon to see the fleets of the chapter augmented by vessels of the Imperial Navy or a strike vessel of the chapter lending its strength to a Navy Taskforce whose mission is likely to include planetary assaults or boarding actions. A cooperation born from sharing their home system with a large naval present. Doctrine The chapter follows the codex when it comes to combat doctrine but because of their beliefs the chapter feels that the greatest assets of the Imperium isn’t land or real estate but the Emperor’s loyal subjects of pure bred humans. Therefore the chapter when able tries to make sure that that the civilian populations have enough resources to survive during the course of a conflict and rebuild afterwards. The chapter has also always tried to protect imperial non-combatants during campaigns as long as it hasn’t threatened the successful annihilation of the chapter’s enemies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222106-ia-wip-sons-of-me/#findComment-2662285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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