Talon Kaine Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Greetings, These questions came up in a game with Chaos vs Wolves... (Sorry if this is the wrong area for rule discussion) If I use a Aspiring Sorcerer's Bolt of Change Psychic power against an enemy Razorback that is transporting a Space Wolf Rune Priest with Wolf Tail Tailsman.... would he be able to cancel the Bolt of Change on a 5+ since it is his dedicated transport? Or not since it is a vehicle I'm targeting and not his unit? Also if anyone can provide a page reference to back up their answer it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance to those who reply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 If I use a Aspiring Sorcerer's Bolt of Change Psychic power against an enemy Razorback that is transporting a Space Wolf Rune Priest with Wolf Tail Tailsman.... would he be able to cancel the Bolt of Change on a 5+ since it is his dedicated transport? Or not since it is a vehicle I'm targeting and not his unit? Whilst it isn't made entirely clear, I would say Yes he can. Also if anyone can provide a page reference to back up their answer it would be greatly appreciated. Page 62 of Codex: Space Wolves, the Wargear entry reads: ...model with a Wolf Tail Talisman or the unit he is with... And page 67 of the Rulebook, under the Dedicated Transport Boxout: ...allowing a vehicle to selected together with the unit. Seeing as under all other circumstances (such as firing weapons to/from the vehicle or assault) the unit is counted as being "with" the transport, I would say the talisman affects the vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2656593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I agree w Shas'. A dedicated transport is taken as part of a unit. Of course if you sorc was w/ in 24" the rune priest's rune staff would nullify the spell on 4+ ! Yes, a rune priest kicks a chaos sorc's arse (in everything but HTH). Thanks to Gav Thorpe chaos sorcs are the psykr's that all the other psykr's make fun of instead of fear. I guess Thorpe didn't think that being the closest to the warp of all the psykrs would make chaos sorcs some of the most powerful and have the most control over warp pwr ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2656715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Thanks to Gav Thorpe chaos sorcs are the psykr's that all the other psykr's make fun of instead of fear. I guess Thorpe didn't think that being the closest to the warp of all the psykrs would make chaos sorcs some of the most powerful and have the most control over warp pwr :lol: 1. Remove Psychic Tests from Tzeentch Sorcs 2. Add more Marked powers (Damage for Nurgle, Buffing for Slaanesh, Protecting for Tzeentch) 3. Omega-Minus class "psyker" Berzerker Lord for Khorne 4. Add "Shadow in the Warp" style power nullifier for Sorcerors Anyway, I digress from the topic. This is all going into my WIP Chaos Dex, so I'll discuss it when it goes up :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2656773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The real question is , why didn't he use the rune priests runic weapon to try cancel the power? Surely a 4+ to negate the power is better than a 5+? Or am I missing something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2656789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 A Wolf Priest, if he has the Talisman, gets an attempt to cancel the power on a 4+ (within 24"). Then, when it becomes clear that he (or his unit) will be affected by the power, the Talisman allows him -another- chance to cancel the power on a 5+. Just throwing that out there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2656799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 a tank is never part of a unit or rather we have yet to see a HQ or IC that can join tanks/transports in to a single unit . the tail does not work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2656916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 If I use a Aspiring Sorcerer's Bolt of Change Psychic power against an enemy Razorback that is transporting a Space Wolf Rune Priest with Wolf Tail Tailsman.... would he be able to cancel the Bolt of Change on a 5+ since it is his dedicated transport? Or not since it is a vehicle I'm targeting and not his unit? Whilst it isn't made entirely clear, I would say Yes he can. Also if anyone can provide a page reference to back up their answer it would be greatly appreciated. Page 62 of Codex: Space Wolves, the Wargear entry reads: ...model with a Wolf Tail Talisman or the unit he is with... And page 67 of the Rulebook, under the Dedicated Transport Boxout: ...allowing a vehicle to selected together with the unit. Seeing as under all other circumstances (such as firing weapons to/from the vehicle or assault) the unit is counted as being "with" the transport, I would say the talisman affects the vehicle. I disagree, by that logic, the landspeeder chosen with a ravenwing unit would benefit from the talisman despite being across the board. Or fluffwise, in a different part of the galaxy even! I don't believe it does. Also, we don't need landraiders benefiting from a 5+ against tyranids zoanthropes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I concur that the talisman would not help a vehicle unless the vehicle itself had one. The priest is with the unit inside the transport but not with the transport itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I disagree, by that logic, the landspeeder chosen with a ravenwing unit would benefit from the talisman despite being across the board. Or fluffwise, in a different part of the galaxy even! Not really, because the Rune Priest is not INSIDE the Speeder. I don't believe it does. Also, we don't need landraiders benefiting from a 5+ against tyranids zoanthropes a tank is never part of a unit or rather we have yet to see a HQ or IC that can join tanks/transports in to a single unit . the tail does not work. I think you are missing the point here guys. The priest is INSIDE the vehicle, and therefore the power is targeted at the Rune Priest's unit (as the unit is in the transport) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I disagree, by that logic, the landspeeder chosen with a ravenwing unit would benefit from the talisman despite being across the board. Or fluffwise, in a different part of the galaxy even! Not really, because the Rune Priest is not INSIDE the Speeder. I don't believe it does. Also, we don't need landraiders benefiting from a 5+ against tyranids zoanthropes a tank is never part of a unit or rather we have yet to see a HQ or IC that can join tanks/transports in to a single unit . the tail does not work. I think you are missing the point here guys. The priest is INSIDE the vehicle, and therefore the power is targeted at the Rune Priest's unit (as the unit is in the transport) I believe you said: ...allowing a vehicle to selected together with the unit. Seeing as under all other circumstances (such as firing weapons to/from the vehicle or assault) the unit is counted as being "with" the transport, I would say the talisman affects the vehicle. Quoting that as the vehicle was selected with the unit, the vehicle was counted as part of the unit. The ravenwing speeder is elected with the unit, precisely as your dedicated transport is. Also, when I'm cleaning my friends car ('cause apparently I'm a nice bloke), I'm targeting it with my sponge, does my friend's (who's in the car) clothing get wet because I'm targeting him since I'm targeting the vehicle? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 An independent character cannot join a vehile, therefore he cannot join a transport even if inside one. To be "with a unit" you need to join it, so it isn't possible for a transport to be "with an independent characters". By the logic that a transport is part of the unit, then that would mean you couldn't get a Kill Point unless you destroy both a Rhino and a Tactical squad and you have to remain in unit coherency with both the dedicated transport and unit and assault when the other is assaulted etc. It's separate unit for all game purposes and as a vehicle it cannot be joined by an independent character. Ergo, any wargear or abilities that affect the character and a unit it is with cannot affect a transport. As a separate precedent; a Farseer casts Fortune on a unit in it's Wave Serpent (as he is with the unit). You wouldn't consider the Wave Serpent to benefit from re-rollable cover saves now would you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Also, when I'm cleaning my friends car ('cause apparently I'm a nice bloke), I'm targeting it with my sponge, does my friend's (who's in the car) clothing get wet because I'm targeting him since I'm targeting the vehicle? Is it Open-Topped? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Is it Open-Topped? doesnt matter . if the serpent is part of the seer unit you dont check range and LoS . a unit is always in its own range and LoS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Is it Open-Topped? doesnt matter . if the serpent is part of the seer unit you dont check range and LoS . a unit is always in its own range and LoS. Yeah... that was meant to be a joke about the car he was washing being open-topped :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Also, when I'm cleaning my friends car ('cause apparently I'm a nice bloke), I'm targeting it with my sponge, does my friend's (who's in the car) clothing get wet because I'm targeting him since I'm targeting the vehicle? Is it Open-Topped? Only if there's an occupant firing a weapon out a window. Unless they have powered armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I should read quotes too . I think you are missing the point here guys. The priest is INSIDE the vehicle, and therefore the power is targeted at the Rune Priest's unit (as the unit is in the transport) no it doesnt . first of all when in a transport the unit [priest+Gh] are not even considered to be on a table . I mean even units that are worded to work on transported units [doom or shadow of the warp to make an example] dont . the power does not target the unit or the priest , it does not affect the unit , it doesnt even force tests on them [which ever stat the test may use]. And the priest cant be in a unit with a transport ergo the tail does not work . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2657967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 A transport vehicle is not the 'same' unit as the unit they are transporting. (Why are they worth separate KP/VP then?) The priest is with the unit inside the transport, and his talisman protects that unit - not the transport, because there's no way to even make them the same unit. By that logic, I could fortune my seercouncil inside the waveserpent (dedicated transport), and claim that both them and the waveserpent benefits from fortune. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2658028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 A Wolf Priest, if he has the Talisman, gets an attempt to cancel the power on a 4+ (within 24"). Then, when it becomes clear that he (or his unit) will be affected by the power, the Talisman allows him -another- chance to cancel the power on a 5+. Just throwing that out there. Cheers for Elaborating Decoy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222245-quick-question-vs-wolves/#findComment-2658680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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