The rogue vindicator

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Ok I know topics about vindicators usually come up now and again, I also know that they are some peoples answer to just about everything, especially in pairs.

 

More often than not, when a vindicator is recommended its recommended in a pair (a principle i understand and agree with), however I wanted to try and hear some of the merits of a solo vindicator, is it all that reliable, or is it just a waste of points for a single one?

 

 

I thought about comparing it to a similar tank such as the combi-pred, between the two they can cover more or less the same enemies (though the vindicator trumps slightly as it can take hordes and heavily armoured vehicles and has a pretty big reputation, although it can't put out the number of shots the combi-pred can.

 

 

Is a lone vindicator ever worth the investment, or does it need a second one adding in to make it worth the points?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Vindicators arent just a 1 hit wonder, they are also a great Psychological unit if they are played correctley.

 

I speak from past experience when I say i have had these little buggers bite me in the arse 3/7 times (I lost 3 games outa 7)

 

Basically I was so focused on knocking out his vindicator i neglected the threat of his other forces, for me that big gun was jut too much of a target/threat. In doing this i was routed as my main force focused on his vini and was cut in by the flanks,

 

The second time I lost i tried to less direct approach faned my units into hit the vini's side armour and watched those units perished as i had clearly fallen into his trap. (oh btw the guy im playing is a familiar friend of mine so i also think its fair to say he knows my style. but still even whan i radically alterd my style it was like he was expecting it)

 

3rd time i thought right, sod the vini im just gonna go hit the lesser untis first work my way around to it when his forces are less fo a threat and in doing so 2 outa the 3 shots he mannaged to gt of were able to tear through my combat squads and practically cripple me :o

 

(0h i play blood drinkers btw) so fairly close style to generic BA players

[Jackelope King]

Never say never.

 

However, lone-anything is less reliable than two-ofs, and much less reliable than three-ofs. Each additional threat you put on the board supports all your other threats.

 

One Vindicator, with its obviously-impressive Threat Profile (S10 AP2... large blast is very roughly equivalent to a rate of fire of 4... Threat Grade 2 against Light and Heavy Infantry), is going to be easily prioritized by most competent enemies. You'll be exposing your weak side armor to advance and use it, and the Vindicator can be completely neutered with a glancing hit (blow off that gun and it's basically dead in the water, immobilize it and it's practically dead in the water). Most Imperial armies can sport plenty of fast melta, and most other modern armies can put sufficient weapons that threaten Light Armor (like a Vindicator's side armor) from range. Side AV 11 isn't going to protect it long enough to "soak up" hits for the rest of your mech army, because I think most good generals will be fine with using Interference to just suppress your Vindicator's gun if they don't destroy it on the first volley.

[DarkGuard]

Vindicators are undeniably more effective in pairs or trios, but I feel they could be used solo, they just need to be used differently. Two Vindicators or three can be used to advance on the enemy, protecting your Rhinos and laying down covering firepower. It doesn't matter so much that you expose side armour as you have more than one.

 

However, in using one I'd say you'd need to use it in a more defensive role. Stick it in some terrain and cover the approaches to your base, or cover the area around some objectives. If you deploy some objectives in the open the Vindicator can easily cover one of them with the right cover, making it harder for your opponent to capture. Or use at on the offensive, but realise that in this role its job is take firepower that your transports would otherwise be taking, protecting them. Don't expect it to live long, and with only one shot per turn don't expect it to do much damage.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

See this seems a rather glaring flaw in the vindi, it's weapon requiers it to be close and thus expose its weaknesses. I though covering it with rhinos on the side, or other high profile threats is the only way to really help detract some attention from it.

 

 

The reputation and power of that gun is a double edged sword, but putting it in a defensive position seems a waste of its power. It certainly denies enemies a certain area, but there are plenty of units that can do that with a melta weapon.

 

Many units gain more threat capacity when there are more of them on the field, this thread is not to analyse this as it's a pretty obvious rule. I really want to try and see if the vindicator has a place alone, or whether this solo tank role is better left to other vehicles?

[Mysticaria]

A couple thoughts...

 

1- Since 2x vindicators are standard building block of my armies, I never need to make this decision. 230 points for a pair of vindicators is just too good to pass up. I mean, that's about as much as a Tactical squad and you get TWO awesome tanks... can't ever see starting an army without this as the center of it.

 

2- I take vindicatos to relieve the shooting at my other vehicles. As such, I'm not really concerned if they get blasted to smithereens. If the gun gets blasted off, it doesn't make it worthless. It can still provide cover, tank shock enemies, contest objectives, fire storm bolters... And really... the tank was only 115 points and still can do all that even after the other guy shot at it?

 

I would be concerned that taking only 1 vindicators leads to a couple concerns. If you are taking it for damage dealing potential... is one enough to be reliable? If you are taking it to relieve pressure from transports... is one enough? In the first case, I think probably not. One vindicator is just not reliable shooting. However, they are scary and they do draw fire. I think if points were at a premium, you could get away with only taking one. I just would always WANT two of them if given the chance.

 

-Myst

[Shadowstalker Grim]

So far in this thread, it seems to me that the vindicator is a relative pansy when alone. Noone so far has really vouched for it to be an at all effective choice, unless taken in numbers. Has anyone taken one alone in any regularity? How did it do?

[Brother Tual]

1 is enough. I dont agree with the popular notion that multiples of a certain unit make a part (single) of that unit any better. It either works or it doesnt. Taking 5 vindicators wont work if you cant make only 1 work.

 

 

There are several reasons why I say this but the important two when considering vindicators (I am assuming you are wanting to play good players) are;

 

1) Supporting one unit with the same unit does not always counter its weakness. A weakness of a vindicator is not its profile as a vehicle or weapon (these are its strengths) but its in-ability to defend itself from combat and short range. A single vindicator will benefit more from proper support to counter this weakness than by trying to overwhelm through increasing its strength with a second or third vindicator.

 

2) A good player who is able to neutralise one type of threat will have the ability to neutralise multiples of the same threat despite you increasing your investment in this threat type or power. If a player is comfortable in dealing with one vindicator, they will be comfortable in dealing with multiples. What you have to do is make your single vindicator harder to neutralise in making his solution difficult to execute. Multiples wont do this but careful use and planning with the right support will.

 

These two points may read as very similar but they are not. The first point is looking at the vindicator itself and the weaknesses that come from it, the second is knowing these weaknesses and seeing how the enemy will attack this. You have to have a solution to both. Most people dont and as a result the popular notion that multiples of one unit (vindicator - landraider etc) is the only way to use it effectively.

 

To support my views, I run a single vindicator and a single rhino at tournaments and I have rarely have an issue in using either. I dont use melta weapons or lascannons either and I have NEVER had any issues with anti mech.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I can see how taking more than 1 of a certain unit allows for some redundancy, plus means even if your opponent puts 1 out of action theres a back up, but I prefer to agree with you Tual. I don't think that multiples of a unit suddenly makes them a more impressive unit, its just a second big gun. I suppose the real fact of it is that enemies who can deal with vindicators well will probably be able to take out 2 of them, though I can see merits in trying to get more of them to make use of them before they go bang, thing is I'm not sold on paying for a tank that when alone is likely to die because of its single gun.

 

As people in this thread have said, it might be a good idea to place it defensively. Whilst a good player will probably make sure to steer clear of it, a few might be tricked into trying to kill it for its reputation anyway, I kind of envisage it as a good vehicle to place on the flank and cover the side armour with rhinos to give it some protection.

[DarkGuard]

Well if you play your Vindicator defensively and force your opponent to steer clear of it then it's done its job. It's prevented your opponent from entering a huge swathe of space, normally either on your flank, or a good approach line from his deployment zone, or where there is an objective. That's worth the points as your making him play to your tune, making him react to where you place your models, and giving you the advantage of being able to advance into that space on the table which he's trying to avoid.

 

I don't disagree with you or Tual in that one unit of one thing isn't good. Sometimes you can only field one unit of a thing, like Sternguard, Honour Guard etc all becoming too expensive to spam. It's just that Vindicators are so high priority that if you don't have anything useful to spend the 125pts on you might as well spend it on another Vindicator. In my current list at the moment I've ditched the Vindicators as they were getting a bit old, and because I wanted to try something new. I have plenty of mid-ranged firepower, and the Vindicators were very often firing 'danger close'. So at the moment I'm using a squadron of two Typhoons. I know some people seem to like spamming them in squadrons, but since I've started using just this one squadron they've done well, and I haven't felt the need to take another two. It would be too many points, and I don't need the, it would cut down on the rest of my list.

 

I'm using one Vindicator in a tournament in a couple of week's time, and my plan for it is either defensive, or to be used a bullet magnet. Hopefully it'll do well and have me thinking of using only the one from now on.

[DerekLee688]

I've used a solo vendi as the tip of my armored spearhead (mech) army: Autocannon/DCCW dread, Vindi, and normal land raider+Tac squad+Librarian was my front line with the vindi in the middle. Behind them were my second tac squad and 10xsternguard squad in rhino's and finally some typhoons sprinkled in.

 

It worked great except against Necron immortals with 24" gauss weapons. Then again Land raiders don't do so well vs. mass gauss either. I like the cheap OMG shot it offers but the 1/3 drift and only having one shot makes for tense shots.

 

At some point in the future I plan on getting a second one.

[Leonaides]

Its not a 1/3 risk of scatter though. If you do the math it works out as about as accurate as a normal marine firing a Lascannon... (take BS off scatter, assuming even a 2" scatter - so rolling a 7 or less on your scatter dice and factor in radius of blast marker you still end up hitting your original target)

[DerekLee688]

All the same I'd rather have two lascannons than one if it's not twinlinked, same with Demo cannons. However, the question is to have a 2nd demo shot for 115pts. or combi-pred for 120? That opens a whole new can of worms.

[gettothegone]

Even vindi's in 3s... IG does this better, and they bring it in mass amounts. If your opponent sharts his pants at a single vindicator or even 3 of them... seeing a IG mech list must be the equivalent of eating an entire box of Colon Blow.

 

Vindicators are simply not scary, nor should they be. They're slow, and have a single big gun on it that can't shoot OVER walls.

 

After that your shells need to hit what you're shooting.

 

After that pending your opponent isn't near any of your OWN units making it a risk rather then a target.

 

After that pending your opponent moves their units in 2" coherency minimizing wounds, you still can roll 1s on some.

 

After that pending your opponent has cover which this day and age means pretty much everything can find a 4+, they're rolling 4s. Or on bikes... 3s.

 

How many more gimmicks do you want on a single piece of hardware, or even 3.

 

Don't fool yourself into thinking the Vindi is multi purpose vehicle and can be compared to other tanks. I don't think you can possibly come up with another tank that has the same amount of gaming mechanics working against it as the Vindicator in the SM book.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Generally i've ignored vindicators, they have a big gun, but thats all i really see in them. I know people take 2, but generally I like to have lots of different things (which perhaps isn't the most competative thing). In this thread for the most part people seem to place doubts on the vindicator as a performance vehicle when alone. This doesn't exactly reassure me that the vindicator is a strong candidate for a heavy support choice.

 

After all it may have a big gun, but it has plenty of drawbacks and a low life expectancy that mean that gun may not be doing a lot.....a second may live a little longer, perhaps allowing it to be more offensively played in games

[Mysticaria]

All that other stuff aside... I started to win a lot more games once I started playing 2 vindicators. Everyone says it has drawbacks, but the intangibles are very significant. It is one of the only vehicles in the game that can really 'shape the battlefield' as it were. It can make an impact like no other vehicle in the game, and when it doesn't work it still draws lots of fire and still doesn't cost very many points at all. Like I said before, 2x vindicators go in every army I build as one of the very first building blocks. For 230 points that's an aweful lot of firepower and armor.

 

-Myst

[templargdt]

Taking one vindicator has worked well for me, I use the demolisher cannon to kill mobs of Nobz/Meganobz, Plague Marines, FNP Blood Angels and Thunderwolves. I get the vindicator in position to do this by denying LOS with my (lone) Land Raider. I wouldn't look down my nose at two vindicators though.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

Vindicator also comes standard with a storm bolter, so it takes 2 weapon destroyed to take out the demolisher.

 

3 if you buy a relatively cheap pintle storm bolter.

[Xeonic]

You realize your opponent gets to chose which weapon gets destroyed, don't you?

BRB P.61 under Damaged - weapon destroyed. "chosen by the attacker" is crystal clear. Taking extra storm bolters helps rhinos, but that's because who cares which weapon is destroyed on a rhino. On a vindi 100% the first weapon destroyed is going on the one big gun.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

On a vindi 100% the first weapon destroyed is going on the one big gun.

 

Unless you can fool them into thinking that the storm bolter is a destructive weapon of apocalyptic proportions >.>

 

 

 

 

I don't look down my nose at multiple vindicators, it just seems to me that quite a few seem to wonder about it when its alone, like it needs some special care to get by.....I know that all units need looking after to some degree though. That vindi cannon is obviously what i'd take the tank for though it seems quite a double edged sword as an investment and perhaps not reliable in every game, more like a wild care that 'may' come in handy. It all depends on how it gets used and what happens to it, if an enemy ignores the vindi it could pulp enemies and rip open vehicles, if its a target it allows the rest of the army to form up, both winning situations I suppose.

[Mysticaria]

That's the thing.... potential is much greater than 115 points... and even if you lose it that doesn't mean it's value was zero. You've only lost a small portion of your list, about half of a land raider or tactical squad. As long as they were shooting at the front it probably soaked lots of fire... and even then there are times it can still be very useful for cover, contesting objectives, tank shocking, firing storm bolters, blocking line of sight, blocking driving lanes, etc.... The low price and high potential, combined with the high armor value make it ace in my book.

 

The real values of the heavy division in my mind are 115 for vindi and 120 for combi pred. Combi-pred is safer in the back but has a narrower threat range (i.e. it's more effective against armor but less effective against infantry) while the vindi is multi-role (it is good against everything, even land raiders and monoliths). It depends on your list which one would be a better fit. To tie this back to the original question... I think combi-pred can be added to almost any army as a single unit and be effective, but I would like to have 2 vindicators. Adding a second combi-pred doesn't seem as valuable to me as adding a second vindicator, but if I only had one tank I might go with the combi most times.

 

To note: I routinely run 2x vindicator and I have a combi-pred on my 'to buy' list right now. Those 3 tanks together is my ideal heavy support.

 

-Myst

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I suppose i've always leant more towards the combi-pred than the vindicator, but thats partly because i think that the pred can dish out lots of hurt to quite a wide range of enemies, but lacks enough strength or firepower to kill hordes or very tough vehicles. As a single addition, the combi-pred does seem to fit in better...

[Wildfire]

It really depends on what you want from your vindi. If you want lots of big shells raining down on your opponent, yes you want several vindis. One is just not reliable enough to meet this goal.

 

However, effectiveness is not just ability to kill reliably. I use vindis as fire magnets. A single vindi costs relatively little, but has such a big scary gun that it is targeted first. If you have an army that is seeking CC or close-range firefights, vindis are great because they likely will allow many of your rhinos to get an extra turn of movement before they get blown up. If having a turn of extra movement in the early game is important for your army, single vindis are great. Just don't ever plan on using that cannon, and it'll be a great suprise when you get the opportunity! It's a great example of how a unit can be perfectly successful without "making it's points back" (or in this case even surviving past turn 1).

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I always use one, and only one, Vindicator. I stick in cover in a corner, and effectively block off everything in a 24 in. radius. I don't have to worry about it being shot to death, because it's just one little vehicle easily avoided, compared to the devs o' doom, my razorbacks of revenge, and my heroic ten man tac squad with a powerfist sergeant who run around and bust multiple tanks...on foot. I often run very non-standard lists, which just just so happen to work quite well, and in those lists, I have never, ever needed more than one vindicator.

[DarkGuard]

I've recently started using just the one Vindicator, and it has performed well. In a recent game it drew firepower that would have turn apart the Razorbacks in the army, but instead just bounced off the Vindicator's front armour. It provides welcome relief for the rest of our army, and it can do a job in crowd clearing, especially where Terminators are involved. Hopefully it'll keep up the good work, and may have me thinking about using just the one from now on.