Vendettas how to deal with them?

[Grendelsbane]

My buddy is rolling with 3 Vendettas in a 1500 pt list. They pretty much destroy any armored vehicle in my space marine list with the las cannons and reroll misses. Combine this with 2 griffon mortars and 1 basilik he is throwing some serious weight around.

 

How would the great Guilliman deal with this foe? I am thinking of getting some devastator squads with las cannons, but that is some serious points into that sink. I've tried to drive across with a Rhino, but that got punked. I was thinking of doing a landraider...but that's a lot of points in one vehicle for the pt list. Plus, since its only 1 landraider it will probably get popped.

 

Maybe a drop pod assault and just sacrifice some guys to land next to it? So I ask what tactics should I try to deal with the Vendettas?

[DarkGuard]

Vendettas are front armour 12 right? If that's the case, I'd roll with combi-preds, rifleman Dreads or Typhoons. All of them have the range to reach out and touch the Vendettas, and all of them have the ability to at least shake them, preventing them from firing. My preferred choice would be Typhoons, for their mobility allowing them to keep up with Vendettas. The one bad thing though is that they would be very fragile to those Vendetta shots, so you'll have to watch yourself in terms of positioning.

 

Failing that, an alpha strike unit could also be helpful. Dreads in pods, Sternguard in pods, Scout Land Speeder Storm teams, anything that can reach out and hit them with melta before they get a chance to move. If he's running a squadron I'd suggest the latter two, for their ability to take a few melta weapons.

 

Also, is running them in squadrons or separately? Separately may make it easier to stunlock them with weaker long-range anti-tank like the rifleman (unless they can take extra armour, I can't remember). Squadrons on the other hand means that immobilizing them will take them out, a good lot of hits from a squadron of two Typhoons or a squad of combi-melta Sternguard could take them out.

 

By the sounds of it the ideas that you've been doing have been exactly the wrong thing to do, like charging into a Tau railgun line. You want to either play his game through long-range firepower, or get something there so fast he can't do anything about it. Drop Pods do the latter. Missiles, lascannons, autocannons for the former. You're correct, a unit of Devs with 4 lascannons would be a points sink. For roughly the same points (or less), you can get two combi-preds, or two rifleman dreads, who do their job better and a lot cheaper. So try one of them, and keep at it until it works, or you're convinced that it won't.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

They come with extra armor. Use devs with missile launchers. Will kill anything but an LRBT or variant. Then, when you've blown through his FA, you can switch to frag rounds and hunt down his infantry. It would behoove you, if you have extra points, to pad the squad with a few lascannon targets, though.

[spartan249]

As others have said, I would use Rifledreads to combat Vendettas. Rifledreads are about the same price as Vendettas (which is pretty sad, when you think about it. The Rifledread comes with 2 TL autocannons, while the vendetta comes with 3 TL Lascannons. Very big disparity in mobility and weaponry) and are probably going to be enough to deal a shaken/stunned result every turn, if not destroy it.

 

Just make sure you keep out of LOS whenever possible, as the vendetta will have a much easier time destroying the dread.

[Vaktathi]

Be aware that the Vendettas can outflank, scout, and DS. The last part doesn't matter so much, but if he's outflanking them they'll definitely get the first shots off, potentially against rear armor arcs and you won't get to shoot at it for a turn or two at least. Scout matters because it gives a first turn 4+ cover save if he moves it flat out, and can be used to position meltatroops and the like for first turn meltagun attacks.

 

But other than that, deal with it the way you deal with any other AV12 Fast Skimmer.

[Bartali]

What's your list ? You should have a healthy dose of anti-armour ranged shooting in their regardless of your opponent. As others have said, Dreads 'n Preds are the way to go for C:SM.

 

Three Vendettas are only three AV12 vehicles after all - you should have the firepower in the list to be able to deal with these. Dreds n' Preds should be able to get cover easily too (make sure you're playing on a table with the regulation 25% cover), while the Vendetta will be hard pushed to get a cover save unless moving fast.

[Kay]

i dont see it *that* hard seriously...

3 vendettas, as have been stated, are just 3 AV12 vehicles. I'd be much more scared by 3 falcons, or 3 Stormravens...

 

Say you have in your list, a Sternguard Drop podding Squad, 1 Rifledread, 2-3 Tacticals with ML, a couple of Attack Bikes and a DakkaPred. With that usual loadout in a SM army, you have enough firepower to deal with them.

 

While expensive, LR are also good due to their ability to keep shooting even if shaken or stunned. Very fragile? take two.

 

I like a lot taking a 2 man Terminator Squad with 2CML. They are resilient as hell, and they deliver a punch both in shooting and in CC. In your situation 4 CML shots in a 10W 2+ 5++ platform may be very helpful.

 

As a last point, a libby eith Curse of the Machine Spirit, almost guarantee that you stunlock one of them just with the libby. Keep glancing it to death.

[MagicMan]

Missile launchers.

 

 

Remember if you immobilize it you blow it up.

[Hellios]

i dont see it *that* hard seriously...

3 vendettas, as have been stated, are just 3 AV12 vehicles. I'd be much more scared by 3 falcons, or 3 Stormravens...

 

As an old time Eldar player and someone who plays AirCav Guard unless you are talking about a fully tooled out Falcon which is harder to destroy the Vendetta I admit the Vendetta still wins on pure Anti-tank power... At best the falcon has a pulse laser (S8) and bright lance (S8 lance) giving it 3 S8 BS3 shots (gahh targetting arrays like fire prisms in the next dex please...) while the Vendetta has 3 TL lascannon shots... Meaning that the only time the falcon is better against armour is against AV14 if it hits with the lance shot... maybe and if against BT blessed hull or monolith then it won't get the lance bonus. Take into account the transport capacity and you can stick a vet squad that for a 'small' cost can slag tanks, tactical squads and even MCs with a bit of luck in one turn of shooting.

 

As for Stormravens... Maybe they are more dangerous but I'm now close to having two vendettas for the cost of one... take 3 of them? I'll take 6 vendettas.

 

Rather than telling you how to destroy them (Mass S7+ shots) why don't you give us your list and we can suggest how you might use it or problems with the lists construction.

[Tanhausen]

I'm suprised by some of the advice given!

 

You don't fight fire with fire and even less when facing IG! Nobody can outshoot them as a list.

 

I'd stay away from vehicles, since those are easy and golden targets for the vendettas, and try and get bodies carrying big guns. Devastators sound like a good plan, as long as you keep them in cover!

 

Also, I'd think of ways to bring MM or even plasma to the table. Yes, you might think S7 vs AV12 is not that good of an option, but it gives you tactical flexibility and all you really need is to prevent it from shooting, which you will get if you glance him.

 

Just my thoughts... for whatever they are worth ^_^

[Hellios]

I'm suprised by some of the advice given!

 

You don't fight fire with fire and even less when facing IG! Nobody can outshoot them as a list.

 

I'd stay away from vehicles, since those are easy and golden targets for the vendettas, and try and get bodies carrying big guns. Devastators sound like a good plan, as long as you keep them in cover!

 

Also, I'd think of ways to bring MM or even plasma to the table. Yes, you might think S7 vs AV12 is not that good of an option, but it gives you tactical flexibility and all you really need is to prevent it from shooting, which you will get if you glance him.

 

Just my thoughts... for whatever they are worth ^_^

 

While you have raised good points that also depends on the rest of his list. Some IG units will have no trouble destroying a 10man devastator squad even if it is in some ruins :'(

[ShinyRhino]

I'll echo Tannhausen's surprise at the folks recommending Predators, Dreads, and other vehicle-based firepower to take out a trio of tank killers. The Vendettas have a far more flexible deployment bracket than any of those options, and therefore you are relying on a lack of IG player skill, or pure dice luck to get you by. If you're going second, those Vendettas have already killed your anti-Vendetta vehicles.

 

Infantry-based missiles and las are where you're going to find your Vendetta-killers. Tactical squads can take missiles or las for cheap, and have nine ablative wounds. Devastators with four missile launchers can volley down a Vendetta handily. Sternguard with a couple of cheap lascannons can also do so. Terminators with Cyclone missiles. All of these can be parked in cover for saves versus the lascannons on the Vendettas, and/or have plenty of ablative wounds to spare.

 

The real trick is avoiding those Basilisk and Griffon hits on that foot-based firepower. Park in cover until you've neutered the Vendettas, and then turn the guns on the artillery.

 

That's the tricky thing about a Combined Arms IG force...they can use anti-tank to open your transports or kill your heavy armor from extreme range, and then drop anti-infantry pie plates on you from that same range. You have to properly prioritize your targets in order to win.

[DarkGuard]

Imperial Guard have enough firepower to blow infantry away. Also, if he's outflanking the Vendettas do you think he'll let that Dev squad hiding in some ruins live? Tanks and the like can still work, especially Dreads and Typhoons (and MM/HF Speeders) by reserving them. When he outflanks he might hit one of your squads in cover or your Rhino, but then you bring your Speeders or Dreads from reserve and take him out. If the rolls are kind to you that is.

[maturin]

I agree with the others that using vehicles against Vendettas is suboptimal. But if you don't want to re-tool your entire list just for this one opponent, then placing your vehicles in reserve is probably the next best thing. There's nothing more frustrating to an alpha-striker than a board with nothing to strike! Plus it gives you a chance to get the first shots in yourself. If you can outflank or deep strike, all the better to take out his artillery or respond to his movements on the table.

 

A note on blast weapons - they can be more effective than you might think due to the Valk/Vendetta's huge tabletop footprint. Did you scatter 4 inches? No problem - you're still on target! ;)

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Darkguard! Doh!

[Mysticaria]

I agree with the others that using vehicles against Vendettas is suboptimal. But if you don't want to re-tool your entire list just for this one opponent, then placing your vehicles in reserve is probably the next best thing. There's nothing more frustrating to an alpha-striker than a board with nothing to strike! Plus it gives you a chance to get the first shots in yourself. If you can outflank or deep strike, all the better to take out his artillery or respond to his movements on the table.

 

A note on blast weapons - they can be more effective than you might think due to the Valk/Vendetta's huge tabletop footprint. Did you scatter 4 inches? No problem - you're still on target! :angry:

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Darkguard! Doh!

+1 to this idea. Get the first shot off with your tanks and you are probably good to go. I still like typhoons, either in reserve, deepstriking, or outflanking.

 

Also... is this a good time to point out that terminators with CMLs are pretty good here? While the vendetas are plinking one or two termies a turn you are knocking them out of the sky. I was going to suggest assault terminators and vindicators as a joke, a nod to those who suggest them as the best solution to nearly every problem, but have so far restrained myself. I couldn't hold it any longer though and had to throw it out there.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

Unfortunately Typhoons can't outflank ;).

 

Unless you mean the Vendetta, in which case you have my apologies .

 

And the Terminators is a good idea as well, don't know why I didn't think of that. Four missile launcher shots coming from 10 2+/5++ save chaps is going to ruin his day, especially when you consider you still get an armour save from battle cannon shots, and demo cannons are very short ranged. Plus, you can always combat squad if you feel you're going to come under an overwhelming amount of firepower. The only downside I can see to this is price. If you've built your list around them it's not too bad, but 460pts as an add on unit is a lot, especially when you consider you can similar firepower and greater mobility for 180pts. And although you they haven't got the durability, you can include two units of them for 360pts, and have enough points left over to tack on a couple of heavy bolter Speeders for allocation and cover save purposes. Still it's an idea, but it's one that has to be at the heart of a list, rather than on the edge.

[Mysticaria]

Unfortunately Typhoons can't outflank :o.

 

Unless you mean the Vendetta, in which case you have my apologies :).

 

nah.. I was tired and started getting my landspeeders confused. I was thinking of Storm and said Typhoon. I like Typhoons in reserve or deep striking (probably more often in reserve) and I like storms outflanking.

 

-Myst

[Hellios]

Unfortunately Typhoons can't outflank ;).

 

Unless you mean the Vendetta, in which case you have my apologies :).

 

And the Terminators is a good idea as well, don't know why I didn't think of that. Four missile launcher shots coming from 10 2+/5++ save chaps is going to ruin his day, especially when you consider you still get an armour save from battle cannon shots, and demo cannons are very short ranged.

 

Demos don't need to be long ranged when mounted in a valk or vendetta :o I should know. Then they have other AP2 templates as well which do have longer range.

[Grendelsbane]

Thanks for all the input.

 

My list right now:

 

Vulkan He'Stan

 

7 Assault terminators (5 TH and 2 with LC)

 

10 Sternguard w/ Rhino

 

10 Tactical marines w/ flamer, mulitmelta. Sgt is armed with powersword and drop pod

 

10 Tactical marines w/ flamer, missile launcher. Sgt is armed with powersword.

 

10 scouts. All with sniper rifles except for 1 with a heavy bolter with hellfire rounds. Also a teleport locator.

 

2 Land speeders with flamer and multi melta.

 

I my experience with dreads have always been bad. I have yet to have one survive past the 3rd round...let alone the whole game. Though I haven't used a purely rifle dread...generally a all purpose one is what I use with a flamer and close combat weapon.

 

The same thing with tanks. Predators can't move and fire. So generally when I put them to get good line of sight the enemy in turn has good line of sight back to the predator. My buddy with his Vendettas in turn can turn and burn and still shoot all his las cannons. It just seems to me that fighting vendettas with vehicles is always a losing proposition.

[Tanhausen]

Predators CAN move and shoot...but only 15 cm and 1 weapon.

 

There is nothing in that list that can deal with the vendettas, besides the 2 LS and 1 MM in a tactical.

 

You need serious list revamping in order to adress that issue.

[Corby]

Thanks for all the input.

 

My list right now:

 

Vulkan He'Stan

 

7 Assault terminators (5 TH and 2 with LC)

 

10 Sternguard w/ Rhino

 

10 Tactical marines w/ flamer, mulitmelta. Sgt is armed with powersword and drop pod

 

10 Tactical marines w/ flamer, missile launcher. Sgt is armed with powersword.

 

10 scouts. All with sniper rifles except for 1 with a heavy bolter with hellfire rounds. Also a teleport locator.

 

2 Land speeders with flamer and multi melta.

 

I my experience with dreads have always been bad. I have yet to have one survive past the 3rd round...let alone the whole game. Though I haven't used a purely rifle dread...generally a all purpose one is what I use with a flamer and close combat weapon.

 

The same thing with tanks. Predators can't move and fire. So generally when I put them to get good line of sight the enemy in turn has good line of sight back to the predator. My buddy with his Vendettas in turn can turn and burn and still shoot all his las cannons. It just seems to me that fighting vendettas with vehicles is always a losing proposition.

 

 

the list needs to change , but use your scouts to create an bubble of area denial to his Vendettas scout move. Remember he can't move within 12" of your guys , so by effectively boxing in one or two of his vendettas you've a far more manageable start. I use to do something similar with a Baal Predator , worked wonders , managed to force a guard player to move his 3 vendettas to undesireable posistions with their scout move.

[DarkGuard]

Let me rephrase that Tanhausen. There is nothing in the list that effectively deal with Vendettas. Land Raider with Termys? Ignore. Land Speeders? Won't make it across the board. Tactical squad with flamer in a Pod, maybe if it had a melta.

 

Right, if I were you I'd switch the Tactical squad and Sternguard around, and load the Sternguard with meltaguns and combi-meltas. They drop down in a pod by the Vendettas if they are deployed, they should kill them all. If they don't deploy, then drop them next to other tanks and take them out to give your other units a chance. Free the points up by taking the power weapons off the Tactical squads, you don't need them.

 

Take Scouts out. Why do they have a teleport homer by the way? It only works on Terminators, and yours are unlikely to want to be dropping in backfield. Lets see, 10 sniper scouts with heavy bolter and teleport homer should be 165pts yes? If you can find 15pts (Tactical squad perhaps) you should be able to get a couple of Typhoons in there. squadron them, and when playing Vendettas reserve all Land Speeders, let him come to you, the shoot out and take them out.

 

Footslogging Assault Terminators and Vulkan? Ideally they should be a in a Land Raider, but that's a lot of points for 1500 point games. Consider a Tactical Terminator squad with two cyclones, and use a Terminator Libby instead of Vulkan with storm shield, stick him with the Terminators. Or even just a power armoured one, doesn't make much different. Null Zone and either Avenger or Vortex of Doom (if in Terminator armour) would be the powers of choice, although if you're hunting Vendettas Gate of Infinity or Curse of the Machine Spirit is worth a look in. Curse because even if all you get is an immobilized result you still kill a Vendetta, Gate so that you can keep up with their movement, making sure you have clear shots, and even taking cheeky shots at rear armour.

 

Those would be my suggestions to the list if you want to take out Vendettas, but don't expect your current list to take them out effectively. Your list is very top heavy, with a lot of close ranged firepower but little to no meaningful long-ranged firepower, especially when it comes to long-range anti-tank, which is what you need for Vendettas. Like Tanhausen said you'll have to completely rehaul the list.

[maturin]

I agree with the previous posters here - your list is *ahem* very suboptimal when facing a mobile list like Guard AirCav.

 

Grendelsbane, the next question is what you are willing and able to change in your list. Do you have the models for substitution? If you can give us an idea of what you have available we could offer more practical changes. And are you willing to tailor your army list specifically to your AirCav opponent, or are you still aiming to take on a broad variety of opponents (and win)?

 

To start, I think DarkGuard's idea of swapping the Drop Pod and Rhino squads is an excellent one - if you can load up your Sternguard with meltas and/or plasmas. Dropping in on his artillery and blasting them will be sure to shake him up a bit, even if the vendettas continue to zip around. Another relatively easy change is to replace the scouts' heavy bolter with a missile launcher, giving you one more AT weapon, that could potentially get a shot at a Vendetta's rear armor 10. Or a basilisk - or whatever. The HB is not doing you any good at all currently.

 

What else are you willing to do? Dropping the assault termies as others have suggested is probably the easiest way to free up a LOT of points without substantially changing the majority of models in your list. Consider replacing Vulkan with a generic captain with relic blade - that should free up more points for shooty goodness.

 

Here's a thought - why not add three AC preds instead of the termies? That comes in to less than 200 points, gives you 3 AV13 targets/decoys for your enemy to target, and they can move 6 and shoot - enabling you to come in from reserve with no loss of firepower.

 

There are any number of ways to incorporate vehicles into the list, but planning on reserving them is going to be the best way to optimize their survivability. Alternatively, consider fast units like bikes or scout bikes to keep up with the vendettas and chase them around the board.

[Grendelsbane]

LOL...I don't mind the criticism. When I did the list I was playing against nids and didn't change it for when my buddy switched to guard I didn't bother changing it...and got killed. :(

 

I am more than open to suggestions or changes to the list.

[Bartali]

I'd stay away from vehicles, since those are easy and golden targets for the vendettas, and try and get bodies carrying big guns. Devastators sound like a good plan, as long as you keep them in cover!

 

It's a shame IG don't have a megaton of ordanance to deal with infantry......

 

Oh wait ! :P

 

C:SM devs can work, but need to be in the right list. They're absolutely the right choice in a bike list for instance, but epic fail in a standard tacs 'n rhinos/razorbacks list when you're trying to acheive armour saturation and can take Dakka Preds for 85pts.