Mephiston, Invincible Slayer of Necrons?

[thade]

In my mind, Mephiston is the most effective anti-monolith unit in my army book. My necron playing friend asserts that he's more than just a monolith killer...that Crons in fact have little in the way of anti-Meph.

 

My gut feeling is that a Cron list will have between 8 to 12 Destroyers and that massed S6 Heavy 3 fire will take him down eventually...hit him enough times and I'll roll enough ones. I also fear the particle whip on the lith, feeling it'll do a number on Meph even if he does tear the creepy floaty pyramid down.

 

My friend's concerns, which I can't denounce, are:

- Meph will soak a lot of fire, letting other targets (Land Raider, Rhinos) go unopposed.

- Pariahs are stupid expensive and not necron units, so they're not really a viable counter.

 

Not having a cron dex nor much experience playing crons, I can't reassure him otherwise. What do you all think?

[Hellios]

In my mind, Mephiston is the most effective anti-monolith unit in my army book. My necron playing friend asserts that he's more than just a monolith killer...that Crons in fact have little in the way of anti-Meph.

 

My gut feeling is that a Cron list will have between 8 to 12 Destroyers and that massed S6 Heavy 3 fire will take him down eventually...hit him enough times and I'll roll enough ones. I also fear the particle whip on the lith, feeling it'll do a number on Meph even if he does tear the creepy floaty pyramid down.

 

My friend's concerns, which I can't denounce, are:

- Meph will soak a lot of fire, letting other targets (Land Raider, Rhinos) go unopposed.

- Pariahs are stupid expensive and not necron units, so they're not really a viable counter.

 

Not having a cron dex nor much experience playing crons, I can't reassure him otherwise. What do you all think?

 

Personally I think that players being equal and that the marine varient list has taken a good list that marines will be at an advantage as they are so easy to phase out in combat... if you have a fast BA army and fnp bubble... with power weapons... necrons should die... I mean the pariahs souless could work except that mesphiston will no doubt be out of the 12inch bubble when he casts half his powers and then he is in combat and a unit dies and by then it is too late... and thats assuming the pariahs don't die to shooting first.

 

I guess if you are playing on at least a 6X4 a fast destroyer wing list might have a chance of out running mephiston but on a 4X4 to kill him they will have to let the rest of your army get near and so lose to them rather than meph.

[Boltergeist]

Their best counter is a C'tan, moreso the Nightbringer but the other works ok too. Other than that there's really just heavy destroyers. A big bunch of tomb spyders could potentially do it as well, but the army would suffer against everything else.

[breng77]

The deciever is the necrons best counter as he can force mephiston to take LD tests, otherwise Ctan are not Eternal so meph can force weapon them. Though it is also debatable as to whether mephiston can even hurt a monolith as it says weapons use their unmodified strength, so you could debate that at S 6 mephiston cannot penetrate an AV 14 monolith. You could also argue that because the rule states weapon, he would get S10 with his psychic powers. That said, mephiston and BA in generall will kill necrons without ever bothering to kill the monolith.

[DarkGuard]

This reminded me of a game I saw the last time I was at my LGS. Blood Angels vs Necrons, and after wiping out a Destroyer unit on his own Mephiston was charged by the Nightbringer. Now while the Nightbringer passed his Transfixing Gaze test, Meph still got off his Unleash Rage and Sword powers, leaving him with one more for the force weapon. 5 hits, 5 wounds.... 5 saves. Poor Meph then got cut down by the Nightbringer due to him not having an invulnerable save. Just goes to show, in 40K crazy stuff happens ;).

 

Now while Meph is hard to kill and all powerful, he is by no means invincible. No invulnerable save hurts him badly, as there's plenty of stuff that can go through his armour and wound on a two. Meltaguns, lascannons, and in this case, heavy destroyers. Either that, or weight of fire, he'll roll some ones eventually. I think the most reassuring thing to tell your mate though would be that nearly all armies have trouble with Meph. He slaughtered his way through pretty much my whole army once, and I only won the game thanks to some Combat Tactics trickery. I think anyone who had played against Meph can understand how he feels, he is just that hard!

[Dezartfox]

I've played games against mephiston with my Crons.

He is a nightmare to kill, I've only killed him once and that was because I got lucky, and he still took a squad with him.

The nightbringer and Deceiver stand very little chance against him, your best chance is to go for pariahs and then scare him off the board with the deceiver or nightmare shroud. Surround him with scarabs and chase him off the board/cut off his retreat.

 

Or shoot him a lot.

 

My friend runs meph along with three vindicators. Now that's hard to kill.. murders the destroyers.

[breng77]

Well he will never get to fight the deciever, so at least that is ok. If the Ctan were eternal I think they could do ok.

[Xeonic]

It wouldn't matter if Meph had an invuln, C'Tan ignore Invulns(codex: Necrons page 27), however, C'tan aren't EW and are only I4/5 so I wouldn't consder them a cost effective counter.

 

I'm going to have to go with torrent fire on this one. You can hope for a good particle whip shot with no scatter or you can shoot your good sources of moderate strength fire(destroyers, immortals, warriors or flux arc in a pinch) at him and hope he fails enough 2+ saves. You could charge him with a lord or two and hope to kill him with all those inv ignore warscythe attacks, but since they're expensive multiwound I4 models without EW that also could go very poorly for you.

 

EDIT: wraithwing wouldn't have any problem tying him up for awhile either, but they're... interesting, and most people advocate using 9 or none.

[Mezkh]

Meph IS 'unfair' vs Necrons. The codex is just too old/limited to be able to deal with a character of his nature.

 

Terminators are a problem enough for Necrons.

 

Meph is a Terminator squad with T6 that flies and fleets, can eat C'tan and laughs at anything else, can sweeping advance, fights at full effectiveness until dead, and costs the same.

 

If it's no holds barred or whatever then sure, but if it's just friendly beer and pretzels 40k I wouldn't field Meph, and I wouldn't be keen on facing him down with my Necrons, it's just not as fun.

 

Maybe double his points cost or ?

[breng77]

Meph would have a hard time killing the deceiver if the necron player is smart, simply because the 2 would never fight.

[Mezkh]

Meph would have a hard time killing the deceiver if the necron player is smart, simply because the 2 would never fight.

 

Yeah but the point to that is the Deciever can't stop him killing everything else. He watches Meph chew through the Necron army and then phases out. And there is no way that the Deciever can outkill the rest of the BA army more than Meph can outkill the Necrons, while costing 50 points more.

[thade]

He's in my tournament list, and I suggested practicing with said list this week against my buddy...his only army is Necrons. I mean, I know that 'dex is far less than adequate, but...I should probably NOT field my tournament list against him. :jaw: Or like ignore the Phase Out rule for the duration.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I always find it interesting when theres a character so strong on the battlefield it becomes such a problem! I'm not saying mephiston is an easy chap to kill or anything, just that theres a huge gap between the average marine and this guy!

 

 

Way I see it is, that he costs a LOT. Once hes gone thats likely a significant portion of the enemy strength removed and from what I know of mephiston, hes harder to ignore because he flies from target to target causing havoc. So strong weapons and lots of focus on him and that should whittle him down, I know that this then ignores the rest of the enemy army but, are they going to be more of a problem than mephiston was causing, or can you now handle the army without the leader?

[breng77]

Yeah but the point to that is the Deciever can't stop him killing everything else. He watches Meph chew through the Necron army and then phases out. And there is no way that the Deciever can outkill the rest of the BA army more than Meph can outkill the Necrons, while costing 50 points more.

 

Well potentially he can by forcing a morale check and walking him off the board, but that is highly unlikely.

[Mezkh]

I always find it interesting when theres a character so strong on the battlefield it becomes such a problem! I'm not saying mephiston is an easy chap to kill or anything, just that theres a huge gap between the average marine and this guy!

 

 

Way I see it is, that he costs a LOT. Once hes gone thats likely a significant portion of the enemy strength removed and from what I know of mephiston, hes harder to ignore because he flies from target to target causing havoc. So strong weapons and lots of focus on him and that should whittle him down, I know that this then ignores the rest of the enemy army but, are they going to be more of a problem than mephiston was causing, or can you now handle the army without the leader?

 

Meph is a real bargain against Necrons. I would take him if he cost 400 points in a matchup.

 

The thing is with Necrons you can't just decide to 'focus' on him like you can with a Marine army with it's assortment of Melta, Plasma, Lascannons, Assault cannons, and powerfists that hit on a 4+ and wound on a 2+, and he does some damage and then dies under concentrated pressure.

 

A Necron army you're attempting to counter him with in the shooting phase with Boltguns, Heavy bolters, Assault cannons without the rending rule, and maybe a couple of Lascannons who have no ablative wounds.

Then in the Assault phase you have Tombspyders who hit on a 5+ and wound on a 4+, Wraiths who hit 4+, wound 4+ and allow his 2+ save, and pretty much everything else is WS4 S4 1 attack.

 

Even without cover saves and, god help us, Feel no pain - good luck dropping him in two turns, and hello here is the rest of the Blood Angel army on the doorstep.

[trefenwyd]

Right before I quit playing 'cron, I started fielding 9 Heavy Destroyers in my lists (yes, even 1500) That's enough to kill Meph in one turn. Of course he'll deploy behind cover, so it'll take at least 2 turns to down him, and it's a 585 pt investment in 9 models. Best thing to do is field them, bring some tomb spyders and hope the WBB rolls are in your favor.

[thade]

Right before I quit playing 'cron, I started fielding 9 Heavy Destroyers in my lists (yes, even 1500) That's enough to kill Meph in one turn. Of course he'll deploy behind cover, so it'll take at least 2 turns to down him, and it's a 585 pt investment in 9 models. Best thing to do is field them, bring some tomb spyders and hope the WBB rolls are in your favor.

 

All of the 'cron players I know swear against using Heavy Destroyers at all, let alone 9...that's all three of your heavy slots. Aren't Tomb Spyders also heavy slots? So you can't bring 9 *and* Heavy Ds? Not to mention the fact that this prevents you from bringing Monoliths, which are your only form of transport...

[breng77]

Arguably you could run 9 HD and 15 Destroyers and be pretty effective, though this would only be at high points against (585 + 750 = 1335+ minimum of 360 points of warriors and 100 points for your lord means you are looking at 1850 +

[Mezkh]

Arguably you could run 9 HD and 15 Destroyers and be pretty effective, though this would only be at high points against (585 + 750 = 1335+ minimum of 360 points of warriors and 100 points for your lord means you are looking at 1850 +

 

That will do enough wounds on average to just kill Meph in cover in one phase. 2.5 wounds from the Heavy D's, and 2.5 from the Destroyers. So 1335 points to kill him in one shooting phase hopefully.

 

If he has FNP, then you'll probably fail unless he perils himself. If he's in a transport? You have to kill that first.

 

It's only one phase before Meph reaches the Necrons because he's so fast. And then there is the other 1600 points of angry BA :D

[Shadowstalker Grim]

When you put it that way, its almost like theres no hope! How long til necrons get upgraded?

[thade]

When you put it that way, its almost like theres no hope! How long til necrons get upgraded?

 

When you combine rumors with GW's past behavior...anywhere from within the next six months to the next four years. ;) But I'm leaning towards the "six months" category (by Q4 2012 I bet) since they've just come out with Dark Eldar and Tomb Kings. If they keep it up, they'll run out of things to dust off. (Ideal scenario there.)

 

I tried to compose a second (less optimal I guess) list, but my friend insists: he wants to face down Meph. Maybe he'll kill me with shenanigans!

[trefenwyd]

Of course you're right, no bringing 3 Heavy Destroyer units + tomb spyders. I'd still bring 9 Heavy Destroyers - they'll kill Meph in one turn if he's in the open. And any Necron player who is still running Monoliths needs serious help... (I know, that's a little too harsh, but I'll take my non-monolith destroyer/immortal/scarab VoD Lord list any day; monoliths just aren't worth their points)

[thade]

Um...what?

 

Monoliths are better-than-AV14 mobility platforms. They carry one of your strongest guns and can pull scoring units to them for turn five objective capping. In an age of melta spam, why woukd you choose nine T5 bike troops over the hardest model to kill in Warhammer?

[thade]

So, we played this out last night. Due to WBB and immobilizing my own LRR on terrain in the first turn, I killed three Necrons by turn 3. My vindicator blew up a monolith...had to expose itself to do so and got trashed as a result. At that point I sent Mephiston in and my Sternguard's last act in our realm was lighting up the Deceiver with hellfire rounds. Almost killed it.

 

Meph ate a unit of wraiths, a Lord, and two Necron Warrior units...on his table edge. The Deceiver in turn crippled my Sternguard, an assault team, and a Tac squad.

 

The least threatening unit in the Necron force were the Heavy Destroyers. 36" range, a handful of BS4 shots, and T5 were not an issue. They were outranged and effectively pinned in cover by my Dev team, and retrested once Meph closednwith their lines. Meph didn't get a poke at the lith. Maybe next time.

[falldown]

I could not disagree more with the 9 heavy destroyer no monolith plan. It is all opinion really, but 585 points for 9 t5 1w 3+ no invuln models with a single bs4 s9 shot a turn is not a good use of points imo. I'm not going to derail this with that conversation though so I will say that yes, 9 heavy destroyers with a clear line of fire will statistically mess Meph up. If he has a cover save of any kind, you can throw that out the window as you will only statistically land 2w a turn.

 

I fought Meph last night with my Crons. He did what was expected and pasted a squad of wraiths that had just finished off an assault team and a squad of warriors, but it was still a close game. The key is to move away from whatever combat he is in to limit his effectiveness. Stay in terrain to limit his mobility and focus on the rest of his army. If you use heavy destroyers and he is in the open, feel free to put some wounds on him. Currently we don't have a CC solution for him so the best we can do is try to win via sneakiness.

 

Oh Hi Thade! Thade ran Meph against me last night. To correct him, Meph didn't kill the second squad of warriors. They were champs and stood toe to toe for two rounds through the end of the game, made all their Ld checks and kept on truckin.