Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Robotronic Erotic]

Man I feel like such an Alien whenever I visit codex fluff threads lately. Ive been playing since 2nd ed and none of the 5th ed codexes have offended my sensibilities in the slightest (dont get me wrong nothing is prefect, but thats the world we live in).

 

Finally, a voice of reason ;)

 

Seriously, if only half people here had your attitude... :)

 

In Siege of Vraks III, An'ggrath, mightiest of Bloodthirsters, is beaten in a one-on-one fight (wasn't it by an Inquisitor rather than a Grey Knight?)

 

Yup. And Primarch have been beaten by lesser beings before. But, whatever Ward writes, is evil. No exceptions.

 

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :)

 

Enless I'm not catching something in that little blurb on the timeline, but I'm pretty sure no mention of Sacrificing to Khorne is mentioned, only that the Daemon causing all the crap to hit the fan was a Bloodthirster.

 

You know what you are missing? This:

 

Having them bathe in the blood of innocent Sisters of Battle to prepare for a battle is just... crass and juvenile.

Sacrificing a bastion of the Sisters to Khorne?

 

Bashing has long since ceased to be about what Ward wrote, now it is all about bashing colossal strawmen that long since have ceased resembling Ward's fluff, but who cares, you can still throw a bit more on him and hope it will stick.

 

You know what? I like what he did. I like all these details from 2nd edition brought back, all new, sensible units, good rules, and finally, grimdumb for the sake of grimdark thrown out, and a proper fluff written instead of that nothingness (seriously, compile it, and it isn't even one page) of the old Codex. I like GK being soldiers/monks now, instead of cardboard cutouts with no personality.

 

And the more I read the above, the more I think what Ward did was to cross some invented fanon "facts" that have no basis whatsoever in the old fluff, like that old number, yet, he is still getting the flak for it... Because there is no way to disprove to fanon fans their inventions never existed to begin with. You can't prove something never existed. And the harder you show them that yes, all of this was in the old fluff already, the more fanon they'll invent to support their cause, no matter how internally contradictory.

 

Frankly, you know what is juvenile, IMHO? All that hating, name-calling, venom-spitting against someone who can't defend himself - things that would have lead to ban had they been directed against another B&S member. You don't like changes? Fine, I'm sure lots of people will buy your minis. Hell, I'd gladly buy them. The solution is so simple. What you're doing instead isn't helping your cause, it's demolishing it.

 

Is that you Matt?

 

Seriously though, when you talk about "strawmen that long since have ceased resembling Ward's fluff", one could easily talk of, strawmen that long since have ceased resembling why people think the new fluff isn't any good.

 

Most people don't care if Ward wrote the fluff, Frank Herbet [or if you like insert your favourite author here] could have written it and in its present state we would still think it was preposterous, juvenile or just silly et cetera.

 

If Ward had written good fluff no-one would be knocking it just because he did it, I don't feel from your argument that you would agree with this.

 

The reason people bring up Ward's name is because they feel that he has previous form with this sort of thing. I agree with you, who wrote it is irrelevant, does that make me think it doesn't sound ridiculous and cartoony? Not a chance.

[Inquisitor Fox]

How about everyone take a chill and calm down. This is rapidly approaching bashing and arguing for the sheer sake of bashing and arguing, and there's enough activity with the new Codex enough as it is :)

 

Some will like it, some will hate it. Some will want to start a crusade with torches and pitchforks. That's the way change is, folks. But as a direct quote from the Rules of the B&C:

 

The Bolter & Chainsword promotes constructive discussion about all aspects of the Warhammer 40,000 hobby.

 

Keep it constructive discussion, not repetative arguing.

 

Now try to get back to the discussion part before we have to melta things :)

[AoC]

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :)

 

100 vs 13. And most of them died. In real space.

 

Compared to 1 vs 2381294214*. He survived. In the warp. Are you blind to not see it ?

 

The codex entry doesn't say it was "1 vs 27923942380" when fighting Mortarion for all we know it could have been an incursion and it was Draigo was there with other Grey Knights, enless it specifically says he took a Daemon World on his own by himself, it is unfair to claim that it was so. For all we know he was running around with the whole chapter at his back or nothing more then a couple squads of Paladins. What I have more of a problem with is his trouncing through the Warp effortlessly and giving everyone the finger. You don't walk into your enemies' home field and insult them and expect nothing to happen, but that is exactly what happens to Dragio. Hell even the Chaos Gods can't do crap against him. Forget Guilliman, the Emperor's new Spiritual Liege is Kalgor Draigo.

 

 

Fluff of mortarion says he stay on his turf (check Typhus). So incursion is no-go. It had to be in the warp. He was send to the warp alone.

[Marmande]

There are strong suggestions that it's only thanks to their geneseed (derived in some way from the Emperor's flesh) that they can do what they do- and that any "normal" psyker who used their kind of powers, would be corrupted in an instant.

 

That said, Mat's definition of "sorcery" seems to be a little bit wider than simply "using daemonic power"- since its used to banish the daemon rather than to ally with it.

 

So they're both able to use dark magic AND be immune to it? As in, he made them Mary Sues?

[Brother Valerius]

There are strong suggestions that it's only thanks to their geneseed (derived in some way from the Emperor's flesh) that they can do what they do- and that any "normal" psyker who used their kind of powers, would be corrupted in an instant.

 

That said, Mat's definition of "sorcery" seems to be a little bit wider than simply "using daemonic power"- since its used to banish the daemon rather than to ally with it.

 

So they're both able to use dark magic AND be immune to it? As in, he made them Mary Sues?

 

Nearly every single entity in all of 40k is a Mary Sue. The writing is deliberately over-the-top and portrays everyone as gods who walk among mere mortals. The GKs, in particular, were already Mary Sues on the basis of "they're perfect and incorruptible", this new codex doesn't change that.

[Marmande]

Nearly every single entity in all of 40k is a Mary Sue. The writing is deliberately over-the-top and portrays everyone as gods who walk among mere mortals. The GKs, in particular, were already Mary Sues on the basis of "they're perfect and incorruptible", this new codex doesn't change that.

 

You can be a god among mortals and still have weakness, though. Believable ones, at least. I'm not saying Ward should've introduced the concept of a fallen Grey Knight, but they're allowed to use sorcery without any of the downsides? At all?

 

Let me rephrase: Ward took Mary Sues and turned them into Godmode Sues. What were their weaknesses before this codex that defined them? The desperate heroism of a man (albeit a super-man) fighting monsters well above his punching weight. Fighting and winning. Now? Well now they have all the upsides of being Chaos Marines with none of the downsides. Oh and they just hop in a completely shoehorned nanny exo-suit giant robot, also removing one of their characteristic 'weaknesses'. It's like Superman without the kryptonite.

 

If and when I buy this codex, I'm taking a sharpie to a couple of pages. And if and when they write a new codex that doesn't make me feel bad for liking the army for which it has rules to represent, I'll be taking this version to my next bonfire. :(

[AoC]

I'll just pretend this fluff not exist, and i advise you all folks to do the same (it's constructive!).

[Eddie Orlock]

I'll just pretend this fluff not exist, and i advise you all folks to do the same (it's constructive!).

Ney, I'll not alienate myself from all who come after. Only by working with them will we have a chance to show them how it's supposed to be before they get it in their heads that this travesty is the one true version. I urge you to go forth and if you meet new Knight players attempt to share the history of their faction with them. At least let them know that there are other versions, and alternate interpretations.

[sonofblood]

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :huh:

 

100 vs 13. And most of them died. In real space.

 

Compared to 1 vs 2381294214*. He survived. In the warp. Are you blind to not see it ?

 

The codex entry doesn't say it was "1 vs 27923942380" when fighting Mortarion for all we know it could have been an incursion and it was Draigo was there with other Grey Knights, enless it specifically says he took a Daemon World on his own by himself, it is unfair to claim that it was so. For all we know he was running around with the whole chapter at his back or nothing more then a couple squads of Paladins. What I have more of a problem with is his trouncing through the Warp effortlessly and giving everyone the finger. You don't walk into your enemies' home field and insult them and expect nothing to happen, but that is exactly what happens to Dragio. Hell even the Chaos Gods can't do crap against him. Forget Guilliman, the Emperor's new Spiritual Liege is Kalgor Draigo.

 

 

Fluff of mortarion says he stay on his turf (check Typhus). So incursion is no-go. It had to be in the warp. He was send to the warp alone.

 

Ah, but see fluff changes as we can see throughout this whole thread of arguement. For all we know this codex is showing some potential future changes in the fluff, maybe in the next CSM codex we will see the Daemon Primarchs be more active then just Angron waltzing around.

[Notanoob]

The thing with Mortarion is though, you're not just expanding and adding more battles, you're undermining a prominent character. Typhus would just be another Death Guard lord, but because of Mortarion's lack of action, Typhus has something special to him. If you don't want to just re-write the character, you're going to end up advancing the plot, which GW never does.

 

And on Draigo killing him, it's fairly iffy. For reference, the other primarchs' deaths.

 

Horus-demonically enhanced-killed by the emperor

Sanquinous-killed by Horus

Ferrus Manus-killed by Fulgrim enhanced by demon sword

Robute Gulliman-killed by demon prince Fulgrim

Konrad Cruze-allowed himself to be killed by assassin

Dorn-killed on chaos controlled ship (second largest ship in Chaos service, just below the Planet Killer) depressed

Alpharius/Omegon-one may have been killed by Gulliman

 

The rest are either missing or demon princes. Of those deaths, only two weren't killed by other primarchs/the Emperor, Curze and Dorn. Both of them however, indicated some willingness to die, as Konrad told the assassin that he saw him coming yet didn't have him killed because 'death is nothing compared to vindication'. And Dorn? As mentioned above, he was leading hit and run attacks against the largest non-unique class of vessel their is, and was vastly outnumbered. As he was preempting a Black Crusade, it's likely that the guys on the bridge that Dorn launched his 'desperate' attack on was a Chosen of Abbadon, or similarly powerful. He also was crushed by the death of the emperor, and felt that much of the blame was laid on him, and in his mind rightfully so. He was meditating by putting himself through pain. Quite depressed really.

 

Up to this point however, we haven't killed a demon primarch. The only example we have of one going down now is Angron, so let's talk about the first war for Armageddon. Angron was leading a bunch of World Eaters and a demonic entourage. He was defeated when the Space Wolves lead by Logan and 100 Grey Knight Terminators, called, by Chaos forces of all people, 'the finest warriors of the Grey Knights' (Not just the Imperium, but of the Grey Knights) , launched a massive counter attack when he had lead the charge breaking through the imperial guard defenses at the river Styx. This means a. he wasn't hiding behind his followers, so he was up front b. the Space Wolves and Imperial Guard were assisting in keeping the rest of his forces occupied, perhaps even throwing some shots at Angron himself c.100 of the best GKTs were going after him, and many died. Tough guy, that Angron.

 

Now with Mortarion, assuming no ret-con about his activities, is sitting in the Warp, surrounded by demons and ~1/3 the Death Guard legion. Any Grey Knight attack here would be a. unsupported, as no one is going in their with the GKs and staying sane enough to fight b. going to mean a lot more killing for the GKs, as enemies can spawn everywhere, no one else is holding them off, and the world is presumable somewhat fortified. So things are even more stacked against the GKs than usual. However, this situation is unlikly, as it doesn't appear that GKs have ever launched attacks into the Warp, Draigo only does so accidentally and long afterwards.

 

So assuming Mortarion did lead an attack outside of the warp, we can assume similar circumstances, but still, less men supporting as the attack wasn't that major (it would have been mentioned elsewhere), and Mortarion isn't as alone as Angron is, as he isn't the kind to lead from the front. Still stacking things against Draigo. Alright, let's assume that Draigo not only has unmentioned support, but Mortarion is leading from the front and there are plenty of GKTs around to help. Draigo does something extremely stupid by wasting the time to carve an unmentioned SupGrand Master's name into Mortarion's heart. This won't help with banishment, it's rash, a waste of time, and risky of retribution. Why would Draigo, the brand new SGM do something so arrogant like that? It's madness I tell you.

 

So given what I have, I'd say that the Mortarian event is at the very least wrong for having Draigo act so arrogant yet remain incorruptible. That is an indisputable fact, Ward's new character doesn't maintain consistency with himself in his own codex entry, and he also fails to maintain external consistency with the rest of the written universe unless you make a lot of assumptions (some are bearable, others not), and fill in some blanks.

[Justcar]

The thing with Mortarion is though, you're not just expanding and adding more battles, you're undermining a prominent character. Typhus would just be another Death Guard lord, but because of Mortarion's lack of action, Typhus has something special to him. If you don't want to just re-write the character, you're going to end up advancing the plot, which GW never does.

 

And on Draigo killing him, it's fairly iffy. For reference, the other primarchs' deaths.

 

Horus-demonically enhanced-killed by the emperor

Sanquinous-killed by Horus

Ferrus Manus-killed by Fulgrim enhanced by demon sword

Robute Gulliman-killed by demon prince Fulgrim

Konrad Cruze-allowed himself to be killed by assassin

Dorn-killed on chaos controlled ship (second largest ship in Chaos service, just below the Planet Killer) depressed

Alpharius/Omegon-one may have been killed by Gulliman

 

The rest are either missing or demon princes. Of those deaths, only two weren't killed by other primarchs/the Emperor, Curze and Dorn. Both of them however, indicated some willingness to die, as Konrad told the assassin that he saw him coming yet didn't have him killed because 'death is nothing compared to vindication'. And Dorn? As mentioned above, he was leading hit and run attacks against the largest non-unique class of vessel their is, and was vastly outnumbered. As he was preempting a Black Crusade, it's likely that the guys on the bridge that Dorn launched his 'desperate' attack on was a Chosen of Abbadon, or similarly powerful. He also was crushed by the death of the emperor, and felt that much of the blame was laid on him, and in his mind rightfully so. He was meditating by putting himself through pain. Quite depressed really.

 

Up to this point however, we haven't killed a demon primarch. The only example we have of one going down now is Angron, so let's talk about the first war for Armageddon. Angron was leading a bunch of World Eaters and a demonic entourage. He was defeated when the Space Wolves lead by Logan and 100 Grey Knight Terminators, called, by Chaos forces of all people, 'the finest warriors of the Grey Knights' (Not just the Imperium, but of the Grey Knights) , launched a massive counter attack when he had lead the charge breaking through the imperial guard defenses at the river Styx. This means a. he wasn't hiding behind his followers, so he was up front b. the Space Wolves and Imperial Guard were assisting in keeping the rest of his forces occupied, perhaps even throwing some shots at Angron himself c.100 of the best GKTs were going after him, and many died. Tough guy, that Angron.

 

Now with Mortarion, assuming no ret-con about his activities, is sitting in the Warp, surrounded by demons and ~1/3 the Death Guard legion. Any Grey Knight attack here would be a. unsupported, as no one is going in their with the GKs and staying sane enough to fight b. going to mean a lot more killing for the GKs, as enemies can spawn everywhere, no one else is holding them off, and the world is presumable somewhat fortified. So things are even more stacked against the GKs than usual. However, this situation is unlikly, as it doesn't appear that GKs have ever launched attacks into the Warp, Draigo only does so accidentally and long afterwards.

 

So assuming Mortarion did lead an attack outside of the warp, we can assume similar circumstances, but still, less men supporting as the attack wasn't that major (it would have been mentioned elsewhere), and Mortarion isn't as alone as Angron is, as he isn't the kind to lead from the front. Still stacking things against Draigo. Alright, let's assume that Draigo not only has unmentioned support, but Mortarion is leading from the front and there are plenty of GKTs around to help. Draigo does something extremely stupid by wasting the time to carve an unmentioned SupGrand Master's name into Mortarion's heart. This won't help with banishment, it's rash, a waste of time, and risky of retribution. Why would Draigo, the brand new SGM do something so arrogant like that? It's madness I tell you.

 

So given what I have, I'd say that the Mortarian event is at the very least wrong for having Draigo act so arrogant yet remain incorruptible. That is an indisputable fact, Ward's new character doesn't maintain consistency with himself in his own codex entry, and he also fails to maintain external consistency with the rest of the written universe unless you make a lot of assumptions (some are bearable, others not), and fill in some blanks.

 

You yourself are making a good amount of assumptions.

 

Fact: GW's fluff is often at odds with itself. Contradictions are common and many times people just say both pieces are canonical.

 

Just because the CSM codex says that Mortarion stays on his daemon world (which IS different from the warp in to many areas to go into). The book is old and fluff has the right to evolve.

 

Secondly, the actual account has almost no straight forward facts about the battle. We have no idea what happened. We can't assume anything. At best, we know that the former Supreme Grand Master was there. We KNOW that Draigo was promoted in the field. This indicates (but does not prove) that there was also a majority of the Grand Masters present. This supports once again, that it was probably a VERY VERY big battle. In addition, Mortarion just got through fighting the other SGM, and PROBABLY took some wounds, making him weaker when Draigo fought him. There is also a precedence for a daemons body to remain if it is slain and not banished (GK Omnibus, book 1). So, Draigo could have carved the name on mortarion's corpse. We don't know how he did it, but he DID do it.

 

AND EVEN WITH THIS VERY LOGICAL ARGUMENT, this is just my interpretation. We still don't know anything about what happened except for what Ward tells us.

 

Also, Mortarion wasn't killed. He was SLAIN. Daemons can't die, so Draigo didn't kill a daemon primarch.

 

Finally, in the first war for Armageddon, the terminators are described as sitting around and doing nothing until the daemons arrive. While the other units fight the "normal" enemies, the GKTs take on Angron (who is better than Mortarion in single combat). The space wolves and guard do not do anything against them, it is a GK V. Daemons battle. Also, keep in mind that in the fluff, Bloodthirsters are even more scary. In the GK Omnibus, it took 3 PAGK squads and 1 Terminator Squad to banish 1 daemon prince, and they died almost to a man. So 12 greater daemons and a daemon primarch?? Compare that to Mortarion and who knows how many guards he has v. Draigo and however many guards he has. It sounds feasible, as we don't know the losses on the GK side.

 

P.S. I always found the idea of Primarch daemons as kind of silly, simply because everyone knows their true name! I never got that.

[Marmande]

Oh, so Draigo only knocked aside a Daemon Primarch's personal honour guard and kept him tied down while he carved his predecessor's name into said Daemon Primarch's heart while said honour guard just stand there, embarrassed. And all of it single-handedly.

 

The worse part is that the whole bit about it wasn't even that bad compared to the fluff about becoming a warp entity, but goddamn it's still terribad.

[Justcar]

Oh, so Draigo only knocked aside a Daemon Primarch's personal honour guard and kept him tied down while he carved his predecessor's name into said Daemon Primarch's heart while said honour guard just stand there, embarrassed. And all of it single-handedly.

 

The worse part is that the whole bit about it wasn't even that bad compared to the fluff about becoming a warp entity, but goddamn it's still terribad.

 

It never says (from my reading) that Draigo's does this single handedly. It is very likely that he had just as much backup as Mortarion.

 

If you could quote to back up the 'single handedly' statement, I of course retract this.

[Marmande]

It's in the fluff part of the book where it gives specific dates of famous or noteworthy Grey Knight victories/events, and says that Draigo single-handedly knocks aside Mortarion's personal guard and does the deed.

[bccorin]

Just received the codex and have read it several times. At the risk of heresy on the forums I actually liked the attempt by Ward. The knights are depicted as singularly focused on their mission to purge the demon. Win at all costs. They also fight fire with fire, i.e. using "sorcery" to fight what technology can't, a logical thread since they seek out psykers to be part of the chapter. With the exception of the carving up a primarchs heart (which felt like he was pressed to make draigo unnecessarily larger than life) I felt this actually held up nicely.

 

This is a surprise to me after reading it. The GK was my first army. I got into 40K because of the lore and the GK minis (and the San Francisco GW employees that urged me to come on in!). I wanted to hate this codex and the blogs about the fluff really turned me off to the codex. But I really think this is pretty good. Im more taken aback by the hardened resolve of the GK but I'm no longer annoyed. It's more like...wow these guys will stop at nothing to gain the upper hand. ok..cool.

 

Finally on another note: I like the dread knight fluff. But if they designed the dread knight like the artwork of the DK in the first few pages of the codex-- I would have been so much happier with the mini. The termie in the artwork is more enclosed. that artwork is the inspiration for the conversion!

[Iron Lord]

Until Typhus, there wasn't really that much precedent for Mortarion being static. In fact, he was an army option in the older Epic-scale games.

 

So in effect, it's "harking back" to the older time.

 

Maybe he just leaves his new world "rarely" instead of "never".

 

And why do Daemon Primarchs have to be vastly more powerful than any other Daemon Princes? The Angron apocalypse rules in White Dwarf certainly don't make him that much more powerful. Maybe the "step up" from Primarch to Daemon Primarch, is much smaller than the step from Chaos Lord to Daemon Prince.

[Iron Man I]

Heres a reason why Draigo is such a bad mamajamma. Hes becoming the Emperor. Currently he is an Avatar for the Emperor's power, but perhaps someday the Emperor will be reborn in his body and thus be reborn into the 40k verse. Now hear me out. The Emperor created the Grey Knight as humanities last line of defence agains Chaos, but he also hedged his bets and set in motion a process for a vessel to be "created" that he could return in, in case things went tits up. Which they did. He had himself put in the Golden Throne as a "stop gap" measure till the vessel was set. Now that its here, The Emperor has begun his physical rebirth slowly over hundreds of years, and as he drains more and more of himself from the Golden Throne, the machine begins to fail as there is no reason for it to keep functioning as a life support machine.

But what of the Astronomicon beacon? The psykers will still be sacrificed to it, but the Golden Throne will become nothing more than a glorified lighthouse.

Silly you say? Rubbish? It would attempt to explain why Draigo has such an easy time manhandling Demon Primarchs and hanging out in the warp for decades at a time.

Just my 2 cents

[Iron Lord]

Maybe previous "avatars" like Sebastian Thor, were prototypes- the Emperor possessing people partially, for a short period, as part of testing the techniques that would eventually lead to him doing so fully?

[Eddie Orlock]

Sounds like Thorianism. A recognised Inquisitorial faction.

[AoC]

It's in the fluff part of the book where it gives specific dates of famous or noteworthy Grey Knight victories/events, and says that Draigo single-handedly knocks aside Mortarion's personal guard and does the deed.

Personal Guard means most likely 7 GUO (or multiplier), good luck :rolleyes:

[Inquisitor Fox]

Sounds like Thorianism. A recognised Inquisitorial faction.

Draigo could very well be a Divine Avatar, yes. And Thorians are the best-est Inquisitorial faction IMO... according to the previously established Star Child fluff we're the ones that got it right ;) Well... kinda... the Illuminati are sorta on the right track as well but they're missing a few key pieces due to Xenos witches and their manipulative ways... ;)

[Valerian]

Just received the codex and have read it several times. At the risk of heresy on the forums I actually liked the attempt by Ward. The knights are depicted as singularly focused on their mission to purge the demon. Win at all costs. They also fight fire with fire, i.e. using "sorcery" to fight what technology can't, a logical thread since they seek out psykers to be part of the chapter. With the exception of the carving up a primarchs heart (which felt like he was pressed to make draigo unnecessarily larger than life) I felt this actually held up nicely.

 

This is a surprise to me after reading it. The GK was my first army. I got into 40K because of the lore and the GK minis (and the San Francisco GW employees that urged me to come on in!). I wanted to hate this codex and the blogs about the fluff really turned me off to the codex. But I really think this is pretty good. Im more taken aback by the hardened resolve of the GK but I'm no longer annoyed. It's more like...wow these guys will stop at nothing to gain the upper hand. ok..cool.

 

Finally on another note: I like the dread knight fluff. But if they designed the dread knight like the artwork of the DK in the first few pages of the codex-- I would have been so much happier with the mini. The termie in the artwork is more enclosed. that artwork is the inspiration for the conversion!

 

Generally I agree. There is a pretty good interview of Ward in the April White Dwarf that explains his approach. He very much approaches them as a "win at all costs, humanity is on the line" group of men. It reminded me of Rogue Trader era stuff like Exterminatus on worlds that couldn't be saved, and mind-wiping Marines that had been exposed to Chaos. Sacrifice millions to save billions - I'm completely good with this attitude. They are penultimate pragmatists, doing whatever it takes to to ensure the protection and survival of mankind.

 

All that being said, he still screwed some stuff up. I don't like the fluff for the Purifiers; you can't be "more incorruptible". If Ward had just made them a special-purpose Brotherhood that would have been better. Or even more simply Strike Squad Veterans (maintaining ability to Deep Strike). As it is, I think "lame", rather than "cool", when I read about them.

 

Likewise, I don't like the fluff for Draigo. How can he be the Chapter Master, when he's never around to run things? Want a badass Chapter Master? Read about Logan Grimnar, or Commander Dante, the fluff on those two in old codices and White Dwarf articles is inspiring. Draigo's is over the top. It doesn't have the intended effect; I'm not awe-struck, I am flabbergasted. His rules are fine; he's very formidable on the battlefield, especially against Daemons, but heis fluff isn't written such that I want to play him, although he should be the iconic Grey Knight.

 

Anyway, I've gotta take what has been given, but in my mind, some of it will be changed to fit what I feel is more appropriate.

 

V

[Notanoob]

Generally I agree. There is a pretty good interview of Ward in the April White Dwarf that explains his approach. He very much approaches them as a "win at all costs, humanity is on the line" group of men. It reminded me of Rogue Trader era stuff like Exterminatus on worlds that couldn't be saved, and mind-wiping Marines that had been exposed to Chaos. Sacrifice millions to save billions - I'm completely good with this attitude. They are penultimate pragmatists, doing whatever it takes to to ensure the protection and survival of mankind.

The thing is, up until now, Grey Knights were never seen killing allies before the threat of Chaos was delt with, only after. Wouldn't you think that the GKs would accept allies who'd seen Chaos for just long enough to defeat Chaos, then kill them? If they did that, I'd be fine. But no, not only do they do something idiotic and weaken their forces by murdering quite exceptional allies before hand, but they also make themselves look Khornate in the process.

 

Same deal with Crowe. If the demon is weakened by being stuck bound, and all Grey Knights are incorruptible, then what is the risk of stuffing the demon sword in the bowls of Titan where it will never be seen or hear of by anyone who has even the slightest chance of being corrupted by it? Carrying the thing around into CC all the time is just dumb.

[Iron Lord]

All that being said, he still screwed some stuff up. I don't like the fluff for the Purifiers; you can't be "more incorruptible". If Ward had just made them a special-purpose Brotherhood that would have been better. Or even more simply Strike Squad Veterans (maintaining ability to Deep Strike). As it is, I think "lame", rather than "cool", when I read about them.

 

I think of it this way- all Grey Knights project a "field of purifying energy"- but the Purifiers project it the most strongly.

 

That's why the daemon sword is kept in the hands of the Head Purifier- because otherwise, its energy will leak out and contaminate the surrounding area.

 

Lock it in the vaults- and in a few years or centuries, the walls of the fortress on Titan will be a gate to the warp letting the daemons in.

 

The only way to nullify its corrupting effects completely, is to make sure the head of the Purifiers carries it- ideally most of the time it should not just be on him, but in his very hands.

[Gentlemanloser]

And if he takes a Lascannon to the head?

 

Uh oh, the massively powerful sword is in the middle of the galaxy, uncontrolled, with no one near it to controll it!!!!

 

Unless the next most powerful Purifier is right by his side at the time, and also hasn't taken a Lascannon to the head...

 

Realistically, the only sensible option would be to Crowe to be kept in some sort of stasis (or Golden Throne esk, so he can still extort control over it), deep int he most protect Purifier Vault of Titan.

 

Especially when we're talking about an organistion that has no qualms at killing *millions* to get the job done.