Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Iron Lord]

Given the new theme of "all grey knights are sorcerers who use their powers for the benefit of mankind"- I could easily imagine a spell being put on the blade so the moment its holder falls in battle, it materializes in the hands of the next most powerful Purifier.

 

Why it's taken into battle, rather than the Head Purifier remain on Titan with it, I'm not sure, though. Maybe, for some reason, it's necessary?

 

Or maybe the whole idea simply wasn't thought through enough.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ward loves Elric and thinks Crowe is part of the Eternal Champion?

 

Castellan Crowe: "Blood and Souls for my lord the Emperor!"

 

Maybe it's lucky Draigo is trapped in the warp. If I was the Supreme GK Overlord, I'd be sealing Crowe up in ceramite.

[Iron Lord]

Draigo didn't actually get trapped in the warp until nearly a century after becoming Supreme Grand Master- he became Supreme Grand Master around 900.M41 and became trapped in the warp by M'Kar's curse finally coming to fruition, in 999.M41.

[Codicier Lucion]

In Siege of Vraks III, An'ggrath, mightiest of Bloodthirsters, is beaten in a one-on-one fight (wasn't it by an Inquisitor rather than a Grey Knight?)

 

Yup. And Primarch have been beaten by lesser beings before. But, whatever Ward writes, is evil. No exceptions.

 

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :)

 

Ignoring everything else in that horrendous post, i've read that fluff and have the White Dwarf where it was fully described in front of me. Taking down Angron took the entire Grey Knights first company, supported by the Space Wolves and a massive chunk of the military forces left of Armageddon, and they still nearly lost.

 

They only managed to win by having the Grey Knights initiate a massive psychic attack upon the primarch, destabilising his form enough for physical attacks to actually hurt him. The closest thing there came to a proper one on one fight was when Angron was stabbed by a Brother Captain who up to that point had been seen as the very paragon of all things a Grey Knight could be.

 

One hundred Grey Knights, barely a dozen of who survived the battle, supported by a founding chapter and massive numbers of Imperial Guard and PDF, and they still almost lost.

[Lord Tharand]

Dead sisters are not as bad as possessed GKs.

 

I'd like to mention something about the fact that the silver hexagrammical wards inlaid beneath their skin would make them pop like overripes oranges dropping off trees the moment corruption touched their minds.

 

To date, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to corruption or ceded to heresy. "Turning your blades" on your allies in the midst of a battle screams of a rushed decision done in poor judgement, and vilified by the very action. This is not something that the Grey Knights do. Ever. They are the most puritanical group of warriors that exist within the Imperium, and subjecting themselves to the rigours of the arcane malaise that is Chaos Sorcery would set them off like a match-head.

 

Sorry, not buying it. Fail-fluff is made of fail and botulism.

 

You make a basic assumption that the Grey Knights view the Sisters as allies. In this particular instance they were merely a tool to be used in the Knights duty of destroying daemons. Grey Knights never seem to just show up and shake hands with people. The tend to scour worlds of life (both daemon and human) and in this case it was forunate for the entire sector that the uncorrupted blood of the Sisters was still present so they Knights could complete their job.

 

Sometimes you guys get so worked up about this stuff and forget to just enjoy it. Sure some of the stuff is silly at times but thats fine. Plus this is 40k and everyone is up to something slightly wrong. So what if some Grey Knights had to chop up some Sisters to save an entire sector. It jives with the rest of the fluff. We have Dark Angels killing Black Templar to protect their secrets. Blood Angels turning into crazy insane berserker like crazies. Space Wolves shooting at Inquisition ships. Even the Emperor was off doing crazy stuff during the Crusade in the name of improvement. It's a universe of double standards. :)

[Notanoob]

You make a basic assumption that the Grey Knights view the Sisters as allies. In this particular instance they were merely a tool to be used in the Knights duty of destroying daemons. Grey Knights never seem to just show up and shake hands with people. The tend to scour worlds of life (both daemon and human) and in this case it was forunate for the entire sector that the uncorrupted blood of the Sisters was still present so they Knights could complete their job.

How many times before now could you tell me about where they killed allies because they needed them dead to get the job done, and by this I mean killed allies before fighting? Never. They never just show up and waste their friends before killing Chaos, they show up, have them join them in their attack, then kill them afterwards if they're expendable enough. At Armaggedon, did they start murdering the Imperial Guardsmen? No! They had them help out and destroy the forces of Chaos, then sent them all off to labor camps and such.

 

Sometimes you guys get so worked up about this stuff and forget to just enjoy it. Sure some of the stuff is silly at times but thats fine. Plus this is 40k and everyone is up to something slightly wrong. So what if some Grey Knights had to chop up some Sisters to save an entire sector. It jives with the rest of the fluff. We have Dark Angels killing Black Templar to protect their secrets. Blood Angels turning into crazy insane berserker like crazies. Space Wolves shooting at Inquisition ships. Even the Emperor was off doing crazy stuff during the Crusade in the name of improvement. It's a universe of double standards. :lol:

But it makes no sense that killing the Sisters was needed. They don't need any additional stuff to help ward against corruption, they're already incorruptible. Says so in the codex. Not one has ever fallen to Chaos. Furthermore, these Sisters showed no signs of corruption, or anything that might indicate treachery. They killed them just cuz. Now with those other guys you mentioned? They make sense. They're things we'd expect them to do. Before the story about shooting the BT's showed up, we'd been shown and beaten over the head in fact that they were obsessed with hunting down the Fallen, and so good at hiding their shame that no one's found out 10000 years later. It makes sense that they'd shoot allies to cover up, that's something we'd expect out of these guilt ridden guys. Space Wolves? We've always known they were loose cannons. Their geneseed, lack of codex adherence and such all get nasty looks from the Inquisition and the Space Wolves held up a big middle finger to them because that's what we'd expect independent for space marines to do. Blood Angels? That's been in their back story since the beginning of time practically, and they aren't ever killing allies. We've had frothing at the mouths guys all over the place. But those aren't GKs. They aren't lunatics that freak out and shoot everyone. They're smart, and engaging in khornate style rituals and murdering exceptionally pure battle nuns would be heresy if any other marine did it. But suddenly, GK's do it and no problem.

[sonofblood]

They aren't lunatics that freak out and shoot everyone. They're smart, and engaging in khornate style rituals and murdering exceptionally pure battle nuns would be heresy if any other marine did it. But suddenly, GK's do it and no problem.

 

Ah, but that is the attitude they are going with for the Grey Knights now. They are the ultimate "Win at all costs now" characters, which includes "Fighting fire with fire". They are a mix between a Puritan and a Radical, and a Paladin/Holy Knight and a Warrior Mage. Going out of their way to gather esoteric knowledge and weaponry to fight Chaos no matter the cost, but also managing to maintain their sanity and purity of purpose. The only part of this I take issue with is the need for the blood to be used to protect them from taint even though they are already incorruptible, it's not consistant and silly. As for killing Sisters though.. well I'm indifferent on that. Most of the sisters had already been corrupted, if would perhaps have been better if they had killed the Sisters at the beginning because of the corrupting infecting the ladies already and they didn't want to risk it on anyone else. But, 40k fluff as a whole is made to be contradictory and inconsistant half the time.

[Gree]

Ah, but that is the attitude they are going with for the Grey Knights now. They are the ultimate "Win at all costs now" characters, which includes "Fighting fire with fire". They are a mix between a Puritan and a Radical, and a Paladin/Holy Knight and a Warrior Mage. Going out of their way to gather esoteric knowledge and weaponry to fight Chaos no matter the cost, but also managing to maintain their sanity and purity of purpose.

 

And that's why they have cheapened the original fluff. Grey Knights used to be the Paladins, now they've been turned into bigger Sues than before.

 

Most of the sisters had already been corrupted, if would perhaps have been better if they had killed the Sisters at the beginning because of the corrupting infecting the ladies already and they didn't want to risk it on anyone else. But, 40k fluff as a whole is made to be contradictory and inconsistant half the time.

 

From what I recall only some of the Sisters where corrupted, not most.

[kiwitexansfan]

So I just got my new codex and am reading through it and have got a question relating to the founding.

 

It talks about the Custodes, saying they have the purity but not the freedom of will for the job...

 

Anyone explain why the custodes do not have the freedom of will? Are they less than fully human? Or do you think they do not have the freedom because of the particular role they were created for and perform?

[Marmande]

Either it's something they'll discuss later in the Horus Heresy series or it's fluff written by Mat Ward and you should treat it as such. :)

[sonofblood]

So I just got my new codex and am reading through it and have got a question relating to the founding.

 

It talks about the Custodes, saying they have the purity but not the freedom of will for the job...

 

Anyone explain why the custodes do not have the freedom of will? Are they less than fully human? Or do you think they do not have the freedom because of the particular role they were created for and perform?

 

I think they have Free Will, but that they are bound by their oaths to the Emperor to be his bodyguard. Even if he is just sitting on the throne on Terra, like any decent genetically enhanced soldier of the Imperium they are loath to break their oaths regardless of the reasons and most likely even more so for the Custodes being the Emperor's personal guard.

[kiwitexansfan]

Another fluff issue.

 

How does Valeria declare Darkhammer excommunicatus (sp?) when it takes a chorum of Lords to do this according to previous fluff?

 

I get the grudge but I don't buy that part.

[JustKimV1]

I have to say as someone who doesnt have a huge knowledge of the fluff of past i really enjoyed reading the new Grey Knight codex, sure there are a few things that are maybe a little over the top but i really like the ruthless pragmatism and the way that they know represent the ultimate hypocrisy of the imperiam, i can understand why others hate it but for me the new fluff is what is making me want to do a GK army led by and inquisitor.

[Notanoob]

I have to say as someone who doesnt have a huge knowledge of the fluff of past i really enjoyed reading the new Grey Knight codex, sure there are a few things that are maybe a little over the top but i really like the ruthless pragmatism and the way that they know represent the ultimate hypocrisy of the imperiam, i can understand why others hate it but for me the new fluff is what is making me want to do a GK army led by and inquisitor.

It's fine for you to like it, you can like what you want and no one should tell you different. But just as a warning, being new and liking this fluff will probably get you flamed if you come into threads like these, so for your own sake I'd just stick with less negative threads.

 

Also, funny thing about the 'win at all costs' stuff I see. So they're willing to work with men who use demonblades and demonhosts, yet Crowe won't use the power of his own demonblade? If he's so damn incorruptible, why should it matter? It's like the Draigo being so perfect and awesome yet somehow he can also be an arrogant bastard and waste time carving names into a frikin demon primarch's heart.

[Gentlemanloser]

If they want to WAAC, then surely they'd issue and use Storm Shields? :P

[Iron Lord]

Also, funny thing about the 'win at all costs' stuff I see. So they're willing to work with men who use demonblades and demonhosts, yet Crowe won't use the power of his own demonblade? If he's so damn incorruptible, why should it matter?

 

I figure in Crowe's case it's not his corruption he's worried about- but the blade's ability to corrupt the world around him.

 

I think of Crowe as to the daemonic, what Jurgen is to psychic power in general- a suppressor, that prevents it from being active.

But "activating the full power of the daemonblade"- would compromise that.

 

It's not exactly a new idea that the Grey Knights might use such weapons, either- from the first page of the thread:

 

From the Ordo Malleus Daemonhunter's entry in Slaves to Darkness, which contained the very first Grey Knights army list:

 

Any Daemon Weapons which are taken from fallen servants of Chaos are given over to the keeping of the Ordo Malleus. Those outside of the Ordo who are unlucky enough to know of the weapon's existence are executed. In turn the Ordo carefully study the blades in their keep, and use some of them against Chaos.

 

Yeah, I'm not too bothered by Castellan Crowe wielding the Blade of Antywr.

 

 

It's like the Draigo being so perfect and awesome yet somehow he can also be an arrogant bastard and waste time carving names into a frikin demon primarch's heart.

 

My first reaction to this, was that it was another case of "names have power". Just as knowing a daemon's truename allows you to banish it, so using the name of a Grey Knight in some way, can neutralize daemonic power. (Which is why Grey Knights change their names when they join the chapter).

 

So- by carving the name of his predecessor on Mortarion's heart, he's weakening Mortarion's powers significantly- until the wound heals which will take ages.

[AlexHolker]

It's not exactly a new idea that the Grey Knights might use such weapons, either- from the first page of the thread:

Any Daemon Weapons which are taken from fallen servants of Chaos are given over to the keeping of the Ordo Malleus. Those outside of the Ordo who are unlucky enough to know of the weapon's existence are executed. In turn the Ordo carefully study the blades in their keep, and use some of them against Chaos.

The Grey Knights are not the same thing as the Ordo Malleus. Just because some moron Radical is willing to use a daemon weapon does not mean a Puritan or a Grey Knight would ever do the same.

 

My first reaction to this, was that it was another case of "names have power". Just as knowing a daemon's truename allows you to banish it, so using the name of a Grey Knight in some way, can neutralize daemonic power. (Which is why Grey Knights change their names when they join the chapter).

 

So- by carving the name of his predecessor on Mortarion's heart, he's weakening Mortarion's powers significantly- until the wound heals which will take ages.

If it was the Emperor's name, and the Emperor's power was why it had an effect, maybe. But not the name of a dead Grey Knight.

[Gree]

One thing, I also noticed about reading the Codex was that Ward ressurected the whole ''Marines get mindwiped after fighting daemons'' that existed way, way back. Now, I think this peice of fluff is rather decent, if not for the fact that it's been contridicted pretty much everywhere. We now have stories of Space Marines fighting daemons quite regularly. They actually hunt them across the galaxy in some cases (Voldorius) and enter the descriptions of battles against daemons into their Chapter histories. (M'kar the Reborn)

 

Even if we don't count Black Library's depection of events we have many instances of Astartes fighting daemons in the codex and getting away with it.

[Lord Tharand]

Dead sisters are not as bad as possessed GKs.

 

I'd like to mention something about the fact that the silver hexagrammical wards inlaid beneath their skin would make them pop like overripes oranges dropping off trees the moment corruption touched their minds.

 

To date, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to corruption or ceded to heresy. "Turning your blades" on your allies in the midst of a battle screams of a rushed decision done in poor judgement, and vilified by the very action. This is not something that the Grey Knights do. Ever. They are the most puritanical group of warriors that exist within the Imperium, and subjecting themselves to the rigours of the arcane malaise that is Chaos Sorcery would set them off like a match-head.

 

Sorry, not buying it. Fail-fluff is made of fail and botulism.

 

You make a basic assumption that the Grey Knights view the Sisters as allies. In this particular instance they were merely a tool to be used in the Knights duty of destroying daemons. Grey Knights never seem to just show up and shake hands with people. The tend to scour worlds of life (both daemon and human) and in this case it was forunate for the entire sector that the uncorrupted blood of the Sisters was still present so they Knights could complete their job.

 

Sometimes you guys get so worked up about this stuff and forget to just enjoy it. Sure some of the stuff is silly at times but thats fine. Plus this is 40k and everyone is up to something slightly wrong. So what if some Grey Knights had to chop up some Sisters to save an entire sector. It jives with the rest of the fluff. We have Dark Angels killing Black Templar to protect their secrets. Blood Angels turning into crazy insane berserker like crazies. Space Wolves shooting at Inquisition ships. Even the Emperor was off doing crazy stuff during the Crusade in the name of improvement. It's a universe of double standards. ^_^

 

Again, you are assuming that the Grey Knights even treat a group like the Sisters of Battle as friends. I think in this particular example the Grey Knights are playing for the end game and treat the Sisters as just another pawn on the way to an ultimate victory. I haven't read the codex and only know the fluff about the sisters from reading this thread. Is it possible they just needed the blood to defeat the daemon and not to remain pure? This little piece of fluff doesn't bother me that much since the Grey Knights are a highly secretive order whos goals and directives are on a much higher level than anyone else. It's not surprising to me that they might treat any agents of the Imperium as pawns.

 

I also feel like being "Pure" and "Not corruptable" is not the same thing as being good. They are pure of taint from Chaos but that doesn't make them everything good and holy in the universe. Everyone in 40k has a dark streak of some type. It seems the Grey Knights darkside is that they go about business in a very heavy handy method, sacrifice innocent psykers to annoint their armor, or murder allies to get a job done.

 

The little blurb I read about Crowe on the GW website was what actually got me interested in the new codex. I like the fact that he carriers this daemonblade around to attract daemons to destroy. He's basically saying, "Come and get it boys" and kicking some daemon butt. Thats neat to me. I'll admit, that Draigo fluff about being trapped in the warp seems a tad silly to me. How exactly does he lead a chapter when he's never around?

 

Grey Knights were the first marines I ever played when I started 40k. I originally added them as allies back in 4e because I liked their fluff and thought the models were awesome. I really did enjoy the fluff from the Daemon Hunters Codex but stuff changes. Now, I completely respect if anyone doesn't like it or whatever and I think we can discuss it like civil humans. I just think its kind of silly to see some people rage so hard against it.

[Sothalor]

It's not necessarily contradicted. The mind wiping likely only occurs when the Grey Knights/Ordo Malleus are on hand during and after the conflict. Marines, being so legendarily independent, are probably unlikely to submit themselves to mind wipes whenever they fight a daemonic foe, especially if it's an "internal" matter or a battle only they were involved in.

 

There are probably many factors that go into whether or not a marine group gets mind wiped as well. A lone marine or squad, yeah they're probably getting their brains scrambled whether they want to or not. An entire company on the other hand has the potential to make things... messy if they're pushed. Another factor may be the influence of the chapter the marines belong to. A famous First Founding chapter such as the Space Wolves or Ultramarines probably has more political clout than a relatively young upstart chapter.

 

Additionally, the way I see it is whether or not marines get mind wiped is also dependent on the severity of the daemonic incursion and the length and difficulty of beating it back. A swift successful campaign is probably considered less of a "moral threat" than a long drawn out campaign.

 

As to chapters entering battles against daemons into their records, who's going to look at them? Certainly not your average citizen or administratum worker. There's lots of background that makes it clear that Inquisitors who try to bully Astartes chapters tend to meet... unfortunate ends. Even Inquisitors who have sworn oaths of brotherhood with Astartes gain access to those kinds of records only under the most dire or unusual circumstances.

[Iron Man I]

It's fine for you to like it, you can like what you want and no one should tell you different. But just as a warning, being new and liking this fluff will probably get you flamed if you come into threads like these, so for your own sake I'd just stick with less negative threads.

Thats kinda harsh. I dont think anyone would poop on anyone else if they liked the fluff. If he likes it, he likes it. I personally find the fluff distasteful in parts and downright hedscratching in others, but if he doesnt agree with me, thats cool. In the times I've been here most people are pretty chill with stuff. I mean yes arguments get heated and somewhat trollish, but I've never seen anyone call out another boardmember over opinions on stuff they like.

[Inache]

After finally getting the codex and reading it this morning I have to say that this is an awesome codex.

 

As far as Draigo goes, it's now been established that Grey Knights are given new names upon rising to the rank of Knight, and some of these names have been recycled throughout the millennia. These names are essentially the inverse of a daemon's true name, and the history of the bearers of the name give it even more power over daemons. Geronitan might have a special significance against daemons of Nurgle, so it was a strike not just against Mortarion, but also all daemons of Nurgle. And since Draigo was raised to Supreme Grand Master on the field of battle, and the Supreme Grand Master can only be appointed by unanimous vote by all eight Grand Masters means that the entire chapter was at Kornovin, so even if Draigo made the final assault through Mortarion's bodyguard, which isn't specifically stated in this case as being the Deathshroud, he isn't exactly alone in this fight. Plus he doesn't even slay or banish or anything to Mortarion. Mortarion ultimately escapes back to the Plague Planet.

 

And the Bloodtide stuff is even more different than what's been said. there is a Bloodthirster, and his title is Lord of the Bloodtide, so he's in possession of a Bloodtide nano-virus even before he was stasis sealed in a statue of the Emperor. He uses it to corrupt and possess anyone who comes in contact with it. The Order of the Ebon Chalice assaults him, and the majority are killed or corrupted, leaving only a handful alive. The Grey Knights arrive, and "needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint" they kill the remaining sisters. It never states how many are killed, but it's not many.

 

And the Purifiers aren't "more incorruptible" I don't think that phrase is ever used anywhere in the codex. Just that they are more fervent in their purity and zealousness than even a regular Grey Knight. They're the equivalent of Chaplains in many respects. Space Marines are holy and pious, but some Space Marines are just that little bit more, that makes them Chaplains. Such is the case with Purifiers, their purity psychically oozes from them, letting them utilize the Cleansing Flame, that's why even feats of valor and honor don't mean you get invited to join their ranks. It's that extra unique quality that sets them apart.

 

And my personal favorite part is this little gem.

 

There are those who might see contradiction between our abhorrence of the Daemon and our wielding of sorcery. Yet these contradictions live only in the minds of weak men, and we are not accountable to such as they. - Grand Master Valdar Aurikon

 

So, kudos Matt Ward for a bangin' codex that I'll treasure for years to come.

[Gree]

so even if Draigo made the final assault through Mortarion's bodyguard, which isn't specifically stated in this case as being the Deathshroud, he isn't exactly alone in this fight.

 

Re-read it again. he was stated as doing it alond and unaided it the timeline section.

 

There are those who might see contradiction between our abhorrence of the Daemon and our wielding of sorcery. Yet these contradictions live only in the minds of weak men, and we are not accountable to such as they. - Grand Master Valdar Aurikon

 

The arrogance just drips from that statement.

[Notanoob]

It's fine for you to like it, you can like what you want and no one should tell you different. But just as a warning, being new and liking this fluff will probably get you flamed if you come into threads like these, so for your own sake I'd just stick with less negative threads.

Thats kinda harsh. I dont think anyone would poop on anyone else if they liked the fluff. If he likes it, he likes it. I personally find the fluff distasteful in parts and downright hedscratching in others, but if he doesnt agree with me, thats cool. In the times I've been here most people are pretty chill with stuff. I mean yes arguments get heated and somewhat trollish, but I've never seen anyone call out another boardmember over opinions on stuff they like.

Perhaps not here, but on other boards people will get even more touchy about the fluff, I was just giving him fair warning that the Internet is not nice to people who's opinions differ from the loud haters.

[Notanoob]

so even if Draigo made the final assault through Mortarion's bodyguard, which isn't specifically stated in this case as being the Deathshroud, he isn't exactly alone in this fight.

 

Re-read it again. he was stated as doing it alond and unaided it the timeline section.

Quote and page number, just for those of us who can't read it.

 

There are those who might see contradiction between our abhorrence of the Daemon and our wielding of sorcery. Yet these contradictions live only in the minds of weak men, and we are not accountable to such as they. - Grand Master Valdar Aurikon

 

The arrogance just drips from that statement.

I get the feeling, based of the WD interview that he stuck that in their just to say 'F you' to all of those he knew would complain about it here. Screw him, I'm just considering all 5th ed fluff vile heresy and performing a mind wipe.