Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Inache]

Re-read it again. he was stated as doing it alond and unaided it the timeline section.

 

 

The arrogance just drips from that statement.

 

Yes, I read that. And while he alone assaulted Mortarion, there's a battle with the 7 remaining Grand Masters and quite possibly the whole chapter of the Grey Knights being fought all around them. A surgical strike when Mortarion wasn't expecting it would be the perfect setup for a chance to kill him. So even if it was the Deathshroud there it's 1v3 in favor of Mortarion with most likely the element of surprise. I can see the Supreme Grand Master of the GK's manhandle two Plague Marines, then get a quick scribble on a heart.

 

Arrogance or confidence? They have psyker treatises written by the Emperor in the Sanctum Sanctorum. By the Emperor. Pskyer manuals. Let that sink in for a bit.

 

Definitive works about psyker skills and abilities produced from the personal experiences of the most powerful human psyker ever, plus the accumulated knowledge gained over 10,000 years. Umm, yeah, that doesn't seem arrogant at all when you've got that teaching you.

[Gree]

so even if Draigo made the final assault through Mortarion's bodyguard, which isn't specifically stated in this case as being the Deathshroud, he isn't exactly alone in this fight.

 

Re-read it again. he was stated as doing it alond and unaided it the timeline section.

Quote and page number, just for those of us who can't read it.

 

I will give it tomorrow when I can finally buy my own. I've been sharing the preview copy with the guys at the local shop for three weeks now. But I've read that section several times over, just to be sure.

 

This is the sort of stuff that bothers me. It's internally inconsistent, and not in the 'it's just an evolution' sense.

 

If sorcerers can become immune to daemons why are there so many sorcerers who are stuck in and with Chaos? Surely sorcery, if it is something that can be learnt and that will make you effectively immune to Chaos, should be taught to Inquisitors, Librarian and every sanctioned psyker in the Imperium? And surely there must be some sorcerers who are traitors but also immune to Chaos?

 

Or are we saying that's what Eldar are now?

 

Of course we go down the route that this is special 'Emperor' sorcery that he devised and that isn't associated with Chaos, but if so, why did the Emperor utilise sorcery that invoked the Chaos Gods on the Primarch gestation pods? If there is 'Emperor Sorcery' that doesn't involve Chaos at all, why didn't the Emperor use it himself?

 

Also, as you say, why condemn the Legion of greatest psykers, the Thousand Sons? Why not just give them extra tuition to make them de-facto Grey Knights. In fact the Imperium wouldn't have needed the Grey Knights had the Emperor done this.

 

I think if Ward wanted to add some mystery and magic back he should have done this through notions like the Soul-Binding with the Emperor and some sort of special knowledge that the Grey Knights have about the Emperor - hence their unshakeable faith. I mean it was the faith and purity of deed and intention that made the Grey Knights what they were. If they don't need faith in the Emperor and righteous acts to make them immune to daemons, instead just needing spells and rituals, we should be able to have traitor Grey Knights who retain all their powers.

 

That was the danger with sorcery - because you didn't need to be 'good' or loyal to the Imperium or humanity to practice it with astonishing success, there was a greater chance of sorcerers turning traitor (if daemons didn't eat them first). Now we have a sorcery that can be learnt and that makes the user immune to Chaos but not predicated upon faith in the Imperium or the Emperor. Why would anyone want to turn to Chaos Sorcery in which case?

 

I wonder if any Grey Knights have been tempted to pack in theendless horror and fighting and just head off into the stars to form their own little kigdoms safe from Chaos and not having to obey the commands of the Imperium? There's no reason why they shouldn't be able to now.

 

 

Yes, I read that. And while he alone assaulted Mortarion, there's a battle with the 7 remaining Grand Masters and quite possibly the whole chapter of the Grey Knights being fought all around them. A surgical strike when Mortarion wasn't expecting it would be the perfect setup for a chance to kill him. So even if it was the Deathshroud there it's 1v3 in favor of Mortarion with most likely the element of surprise. I can see the Supreme Grand Master of the GK's manhandle two Plague Marines, then get a quick scribble on a heart.

 

First of all, no Astartes should be a match for a daemon primarch. No matter how badass they are. Second of all, I seriously, seriously doubt that Mortarion was being guarded by two Plague Marines. Angron had a bodyguard of a dozen Bloodthirsters. I would expect Mortarion to have something like 7 GUO's as his bodyguard.

 

Arrogance or confidence? They have psyker treatises written by the Emperor in the Sanctum Sanctorum. By the Emperor. Pskyer manuals. Let that sink in for a bit.

 

Inrevelent, Magnus himself talked to and was taught by the Emperor and looked how he turned out.

 

In fact if the Emperor can make sorcery ''safe'' then why did't he give to to the Thousand Sons? MvS makes a good point here, exposing the lack of logic there.

 

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...744&page=23

 

Definitive works about psyker skills and abilities produced from the personal experiences of the most powerful human psyker ever, plus the accumulated knowledge gained over 10,000 years. Umm, yeah, that doesn't seem arrogant at all when you've got that teaching you.

 

See above. Only an arrogant fool can think he can control Chaos. Not even the Emperor could do that. Chaos always turns on it's user. Always.

[Inache]

p. 15

Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguarrd, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.

[Gree]

p. 15

Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguarrd, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.

 

Ah thank you. So Driago smashes his way through the Primarch's bodyguard (Which I can practically guarantee that the Lord of the Death Guard is going to be guarded by alot more than two Plague Marines) and strikes the Daemon Primarch down (A being far larger, skilled and stronger in vitrually every conciavable aspect) and carves his name all while Mortarion and his bodyguard where unable to interfere.

 

Note that Draigo had no help in this at all.

[Notanoob]

Or maybe the whole idea simply wasn't thought through enough.

And we have a winner, I think. Ward just had a brain fart/suffered from group-think when he asked about the idea.

[Notanoob]

This seems ridiculous. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ward's contradicting himself.

 

Grey Knights are incorruptible, yet they need the blood of sisters of battle who are suddenly more pure than the GKs to resist corruption.

 

Grey Knights are incorruptible, yet only the 'incorruptible+1' head of the Purifiers can carry a demon weapon? As opposed to sticking it deep inside of Titan, where it will only every interact with the incorruptible GK Librarians maybe?

 

Draigo is incorruptible, yet he's arrogant enough to waste time writing his dead predecessor's name on one of the most powerful beings alive's heart?

 

GKs are psychers yet they can drive vehicles with Trusilver armor unharmed?

[Inache]

First of all, no Astartes should be a match for a daemon primarch. No matter how badass they are. Second of all, I seriously, seriously doubt that Mortarion was being guarded by two Plague Marines. Angron had a bodyguard of a dozen Bloodthirsters. I would expect Mortarion to have something like 7 GUO's as his bodyguard.

 

The Deathshroud was a twosome of mute nameless Death Guard that served as his personal bodyguard, and never were farther away than 49 paces. Two Death Guard. And once again I point towards Rogal Dorn. If regular Chaos Space Marines can kill Rogal Dorn, then a Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master should be able to at least hold his own for a bit. Notice that he didn't even kill Mortarion, he basically wounded him.

 

Inrevelent, Magnus himself talked to and was taught by the Emperor and looked how he turned out.

 

In fact if the Emperor can make sorcery ''safe'' then why did't he give to to the Thousand Sons? MvS makes a good point here, exposing the lack of logic there.

 

Magnus himself said there were certain things that the Emperor wouldn't teach him or forbade him from pursuing. The Emperor didn't tell Magnus about Chaos or the denizens of the warp beyond there were things best left undiscovered. So right there that argument falls flat since obviously the GK's know about that stuff. And Magnus was already a lost cause from the get go. He trucked with Tzeentch to stop the random mutations in the 1k Sons. As far as the "revelation" that the Chaos Gods had a hand in the creation of the Primarchs that sword swings both ways. You can call it fact or you can call it the visions of a daemon depending on your stance on Big E. The Emperor can't make warp craft safe for everyone, because not everyone has the will to control it. The Emperor did, and by giving the Grey Knights his gene-seed and ridiculously high standards for purity and protection they can at least wade further into the use of the warp than any other beings besides possibly the Eldar.

 

And MvS's point falls a little flat since the 1K Sons were already corrupted and it's not sorcery that keeps the Grey Knights pure, it's the Emperor's gene-seed first and foremost, and then various safeguards, some of which are sorcerous, are added to that to make their purity and incorruptibility a sure thing.

[Inache]

This seems ridiculous. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ward's contradicting himself.

 

Grey Knights are incorruptible, yet they need the blood of sisters of battle who are suddenly more pure than the GKs to resist corruption.

 

Grey Knights are incorruptible, yet only the 'incorruptible+1' head of the Purifiers can carry a demon weapon? As opposed to sticking it deep inside of Titan, where it will only every interact with the incorruptible GK Librarians maybe?

 

Draigo is incorruptible, yet he's arrogant enough to waste time writing his dead predecessor's name on one of the most powerful beings alive's heart?

 

GKs are psychers yet they can drive vehicles with Trusilver armor unharmed?

 

You're really reaching there.

 

They needed the blood of sisters to protect not just themselves, but their equipment from the bloodtide. Not a whole lot to do against a daemon if all your holy weaponry and armor is consumed by a rampaging nanovirus.

 

Well considering there are numerous parts of Titan filled with chapter serfs, servitors, and psykers, having the Champion of the Purifier Order keep a continual psychic muffle on one of the most powerful daemon weapons of all time is probably a good idea.

 

Is it arrogant to avenge a fallen brother? Really? The Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights is killed in battle with a Daemon Primarch and his successor, during the same battle, is wasting time trying to avenge his fallen brother and honor him at the same time?

 

And Grey Knights use Psky-out grenades and are psykers! lolwut? Seriously, I get the feeling you're actually just trolling at this point.

[JustKimV1]

It's fine for you to like it, you can like what you want and no one should tell you different. But just as a warning, being new and liking this fluff will probably get you flamed if you come into threads like these, so for your own sake I'd just stick with less negative threads.

Thats kinda harsh. I dont think anyone would poop on anyone else if they liked the fluff. If he likes it, he likes it. I personally find the fluff distasteful in parts and downright hedscratching in others, but if he doesnt agree with me, thats cool. In the times I've been here most people are pretty chill with stuff. I mean yes arguments get heated and somewhat trollish, but I've never seen anyone call out another boardmember over opinions on stuff they like.

 

 

Thanks but i think ill probably stay away for now as it doesnt seem like its a place for someone like me a new GK player who is only starting them because of the new fluff and not in the sense of epicness but in the sense of them being how i mentioned earlier.

 

I should also mention im a 26 year old woman(dont worry im used to people assuming male on forums like this) before i get called a 14 year old teenage boy for liking the fluff.

 

Kim

[Gree]

The Deathshroud was a twosome of mute nameless Death Guard that served as his personal bodyguard, and never were farther away than 49 paces.

 

I know who they where, but I thought it was fiarly obvious that there where more than just two Deathshroud.

 

And once again I point towards Rogal Dorn. If regular Chaos Space Marines can kill Rogal Dorn,

 

no, you don't know how Rogal Dorn died or what odds there was in his death. We knw he died on a chaos ship, but we have no diea what foes he faces or what odds where in it.

 

then a Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master should be able to at least hold his own for a bit. Notice that he didn't even kill Mortarion, he basically wounded him.

 

No, a single Space Marine, no matter how awesome, does not have the strength of skill to defeat a Daemon Primarch in combat and hold him down while carving his name in his chest. Draigo did more than ''hold his own for a bit''. He knocked Mortarion and was able to open his chest and carve his name in there, all of which would require him to actually defeat Mortarion to do that.

 

I will point out that in actual, named instances we have Primarchs defeating Marines with asbolute ease. Lorgar is cutting down Astartes after Astartes in the first Heretic with absolute ease and he himself admits he's the weakest of all the Primarchs in combat. Corax is pwning Astartes again with absolute ease in both A First Heretic and A Raven's Flight. Rogal Dorn's mere slap is enough to almost kill Garro. Aurelian was barly able to defeat a half-dead Angron caught off Guard despite being powered up by his fallen battle brothers. Magnus just pwns Space Wolf Dreadnoughts with ease in Battle of the Fang and defeats the Great Wolf in combat despite being almost dead at the time.

 

Magnus himself said there were certain things that the Emperor wouldn't teach him or forbade him from pursuing.

 

And yet the Grey Knights can use everything appearantly. Or the Emperor appearantly thought that kind of sorcery was dangerous to everybody.

 

The Emperor didn't tell Magnus about Chaos or the denizens of the warp beyond there were things best left undiscovered.

 

So then why did't he tell Magnus then? if the grey Knights can handle it under his personal tuelage then logically Magnus should eb able ot do the same methods.

 

So right there that argument falls flat since obviously the GK's know about that stuff.

 

No, if anything it supports my argument.

 

And Magnus was already a lost cause from the get go. He trucked with Tzeentch to stop the random mutations in the 1k Sons. .

 

The Emperor trucked with Chaos to create the Primarchs.

 

The Emperor can't make warp craft safe for everyone, because not everyone has the will to control it. The Emperor did, and by giving the Grey Knights his gene-seed and ridiculously high standards for purity and protection they can at least wade further into the use of the warp than any other beings besides possibly the Eldar.

 

Or so they think, I would hardly be suprised if the Grey Knights wenr't corrupted already unknowingly. That statement sounds exactly like what Magnus would say.

 

And MvS's point falls a little flat since the 1K Sons were already corrupted

 

No, they were'nt corrupted until the final battle with the Wolves at Tizca.

 

it's the Emperor's gene-seed first and foremost, and then various safeguards, some of which are sorcerous, are added to that to make their purity and incorruptibility a sure thing.

 

No, the Emperor's geneseed is not given as the primary reason, it's mentioned, but nothing confirmed. The Grey Knights previously where pure because they abstained from using Chaos. Now ethier they are Mary sues, or are just being corrupted unknowlingly.

 

They needed the blood of sisters to protect not just themselves, but their equipment from the bloodtide. Not a whole lot to do against a daemon if all your holy weaponry and armor is consumed by a rampaging nanovirus.

 

If the Grey Knights where suspsedly as pure as they are meant to be then the Bloodtide should be unable to affect them anyway.

 

Is it arrogant to avenge a fallen brother? Really? The Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights is killed in battle with a Daemon Primarch and his successor, during the same battle, is wasting time trying to avenge his fallen brother and honor him at the same time?

 

Yes he is. Daemon Primarchs are one of the most dangerous enemies you can face. you should be trying to banish them as quickly as possible, not stopping to carve your name in their chest. In a battle against the dameonic there can be no time for personal sentiments.

[Lord Tharand]

I picked up the Codex this morning and read all the fluff sections. You guys are going kind of nuts over nothing. The chapter hasn't lost any of the flavor it had before. In fact it just builds on what was said in the previous Codex. Quite frankly the founding and operation of the Chapter is pretty neat.

 

Crowe's story is pretty awesome and makes him out to be one mega badass.

 

A lot has been said about Draigo's story of fighting Mortarion. In truth it's just a short blurb but you need to understand something about the Grey Knights. They're space marines but they aren't space marines. They're made from the Emperor's gift of His flesh so they're beyond a space marine as far as I'm concerned. Sure, game/stat wise they're just marines but I figure they're closer to a custode than a marine. The Codex says as much by saying that Custodes were equal to the task of protecting the Imperium from Daemons but did not have the free will to do it. So, could an enraged being of this power level do what he did? Sure, if you consider that emotion drives someone to great things and he was likely enraged. Mortarion is not a Primarch anymore he's a Daemon and that comes with some disadvantages against Grey Knights. It's not that horrible of a story. So Mortarion got his butt kicked once in his 10,000+ years of life/daemon.

 

The Bloodtide story does leave me scratching my head a tiny bit because they are incorruptable. I think Matt Ward was trying to show that they were pragmatic (which is done through the book). There are many references to the Grey Knights killing hundreds of thousands to save millions. So the sacrifice of a few Sisters isn't that huge to them but the reasons for it happening are a little silly. I'll just think of it as they needed the blood to complete the ritual of banishment or some such.

 

Of all the things I would have thought people would get bitter about was the deal making with Xenos for weapon and other technology to fight Daemons.

 

All in all I think the codex has some really nice fluff. Like I said I particular like the idea of Crowe and the Purifiers and I think they sort of represent the classical limited knowledge we had of Grey Knights before this codex. The Paladins sort of represent a veteran company that serves as body guards for the chapter leadership.

 

That's my take on things. I really enjoyed most all of the fluff and the parts I didn't probably could have been written slightly different to get the meaning across to the reader.

[Gree]

A lot has been said about Draigo's story of fighting Mortarion. In truth it's just a short blurb but you need to understand something about the Grey Knights. They're space marines but they aren't space marines. They're made from the Emperor's gift of His flesh so they're beyond a space marine as far as I'm concerned. Sure, game/stat wise they're just marines but I figure they're closer to a custode than a marine. The Codex says as much by saying that Custodes were equal to the task of protecting the Imperium from Daemons but did not have the free will to do it. So, could an enraged being of this power level do what he did? Sure, if you consider that emotion drives someone to great things and he was likely enraged. Mortarion is not a Primarch anymore he's a Daemon and that comes with some disadvantages against Grey Knights. It's not that horrible of a story. So Mortarion got his butt kicked once in his 10,000+ years of life/daemon.

 

Even a Primarch is beyond a custodes. As a Daemon he would be even tougher than as he was a Primarch, but even a weakned daemon Primarch is more than a match for any one Grey Knight, a sproven with Aurelian and Angron. Angron only fell because he was in the middle of reforming himself while aurelian was supercharged by the powers of his fallen battle brothers. And even then Aurelian still died.

 

Mortarion should be able to one-shot Draigo with ease, let alone the bodyguard in attendance (Which, if this was a battle, would be much more than two Deathshroud if the examples of Angron, Fulgrim and Russ are anything to go by.)

 

And emotion is actually rather a disadvantage in a fight. Angry fighters tend to fight sloppy and let their guard down. A Grey Knight should have iron control over his emotions. If Draigo really lost control of his emotions then he isn't fit to be a Marine, let alone a Grey Knight.

[Chairman_woo]

So there was me thinking that fantasy hero fiction was driven by narative, charachter and incredible feats and the like, not ruthless continuity and realism.

 

Apparantly that is not correct......

 

.............someone should probbably let GW and the silent majority of people who like their hero epics, epic, know that the internets have had a meeting and decided that from now on everything that ever happens in the fluff must be completely belevable. As we all know fantasy isent about escapism its about ruthless realism!

[Codicier Lucion]

Oh sweet Emperor, where do I begin with this stupidity. You know what, i'll just skip right to the major problem.

 

A lot has been said about Draigo's story of fighting Mortarion. In truth it's just a short blurb but you need to understand something about the Grey Knights. They're space marines but they aren't space marines. They're made from the Emperor's gift of His flesh so they're beyond a space marine as far as I'm concerned. Sure, game/stat wise they're just marines but I figure they're closer to a custode than a marine. The Codex says as much by saying that Custodes were equal to the task of protecting the Imperium from Daemons but did not have the free will to do it. So, could an enraged being of this power level do what he did? Sure, if you consider that emotion drives someone to great things and he was likely enraged. Mortarion is not a Primarch anymore he's a Daemon and that comes with some disadvantages against Grey Knights. It's not that horrible of a story. So Mortarion got his butt kicked once in his 10,000+ years of life/daemon.

 

Let's make one thing very clear shall we: He was sucked into the warp! No matter how good a mortal living in the physical world is, they cannot survive in the warp. It would be like you teleporting someone into an anti-matter universe and claiming they'd be entirely fine.

Even if you were to physically put a pre corruption Magnus the Red, the most highly psychic primarch and one who understood the warp the most, actually into the Warhammer 40K version of hell, he would die in a split second.

 

Mortals simply cannot physically survive in the warp. They just can't stroll about in it without any problems.

 

Now lets move onto some of the things about the character shall we. Namely his history:

Kaldor Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and a warrior beyond reckoning. As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines.

 

Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return.

 

Kaldor Draigo is famous for killing a daemon prince in his first combat action, banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp, somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch, single handedly holding off a daemon horde for two days in real space, killing a daemon prince with a broken sword, Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND, slaying 6 of Slaanesh's chosen daemonettes, setting fire to Nurgle's garden and slaying countless daemons whilst being trapped in warpspace.

 

This is a fan character. This is someone I would expect a twelve year old to write upon being introduce to the idea of fanficion and creating a Mary Sue.

Draigo is pulling off things the primarchs themselves would not be capable of at this point. Hell, he killed a Bloodthirster while unarmed and even Sanguinius was extremely hard pressed to bring one of those things down and he was a demi-god.

 

And no, they're not made of the Emperor's flesh, listen to some of the Garro audios. They're made from the gene seed of all eighteen legions. Possibly all twenty, not directly from the Emperor.

 

I can see where you were going with the comment about Mortation being a daemon, the ending to Dark Mechanicus with Alaric vs the Castagor coming to mind, but let's get one thing straight shall we:

 

Single handedly Draigo fought his way all the way through Mortarions personal body guard, all of which were likely greater daemons of Nurgle.

He then beat the living snot out of Mortarion personally and decided, for the hell of it, to carve his predecessor's name into his heart.

 

The fact alone that he took down a score of greater daemons without any support would be bad enough, but then taking out a demi-god who was created by the Emperor himself and blessed by a plague god? And while in the warp?

A living saint wouldn't be able to pull this off!

Another greater daemon wouldn't be able to pull this off!

Guilliman, even in Ward's twisted little mind, wouldn't have enough sheer power to pull this off!

 

You know what, I'm just going to come out and say it.

 

The only reason Kaldor Draigo exists is likely because Games Workshop refused to let Matt Ward bring back Roboute Guilliman.

 

The whole codex reads more like bad fan works than anything officially produced by Games Workshop.

 

The Bloodtide story does leave me scratching my head a tiny bit because they are incorruptable. I think Matt Ward was trying to show that they were pragmatic (which is done through the book). There are many references to the Grey Knights killing hundreds of thousands to save millions. So the sacrifice of a few Sisters isn't that huge to them but the reasons for it happening are a little silly. I'll just think of it as they needed the blood to complete the ritual of banishment or some such.

 

They were never outright stated to be incorruptible, just that none of them had ever fallen to Chaos.

 

Just... Just go read Ben Counter's Grey Knight trilogy. I don't even know where to begin with that.

 

Of all the things I would have thought people would get bitter about was the deal making with Xenos for weapon and other technology to fight Daemons.

 

They what.

 

If this is actually happening then Ward has managed to actually surpass the sheer lack of knowledge about what he is writing about displayed by C.S. Goto.

[Inache]

Okay, I'm sick of doing the multiquote responses. :)

 

I'll just work my way up.

 

Uh, yeah, the whole incorruptible thing was always the Emperor's gene-seed. Saying they're pure because they don't use Chaos is like saying I'm sober because I don't drink alcohol, well no duh, there's something beyond abstaining from using Chaos that makes them pure. The implication has always been the Emperor's gene-seed, and this codex has gone the furthest to say so without implicitly stating it. Thus them having a measure of the Emperor's protection from the warp and all its various pitfalls.

 

The 1k Sons were in the throes of uncontrollable mutation before Magnus was reunited with them. Magnus struck a deal with Tzeentch to stop their mutations. Magnus wrote a blank check to a Chaos God well before Tizca.

 

And the whole Chaos involved with the Primarchs hinges on your interpretation. Either Big E was a pragmatic hypocritical ass that dabbled in sorcery and consorted with Chaos Gods or it was a daemon's lies. I seem to remember a few instances in this thread where you railed against pragmatism and hypocrisy, yet here you embrace that interpretation. Like a lot of 40k fluff that sword swings two ways.

 

Which leads into why the Emperor didn't tell Magnus about Chaos. Because knowledge of it would only empower it during a time with the Emperor was trying to bypass Chaos and the warp altogether. By the time the Heresy is fully under way it's a little too late to put the cork back into the fountain of knowledge, so creating a force with full disclosure on the methods of Chaos and the manner in which to fight them, including things the Emperor didn't teach to Magnus makes perfect sense. Know your enemy and all that.

 

And honestly the whole is Draigo powerful enough/overpowered is going to come down to personal preference.

 

The implication in Flight of the Eisenstein is that there are two Deathshroud, so I'm going off that. Not saying there may not be more, but based on that my take was there were two. And Rogal Dorn died on the bridge of a Chaos cruiser during the first or second Black Crusade, and it wasn't Abbadon's ship, it was some no name regular Chaos Space Marines that took down a Primarch.

 

A Grey Knight is going to have an edge on a daemon, even a daemon Primarch, that's going to give Draigo at least a few seconds to do his business. He didn't kill Mortarion, didn't banish him, he only carved a name onto his heart, and knowing Nurgle, there's nothing to say that Mortarion's black heart wasn't oozing out of his armor making it an easy target. Plus Nurgle and his followers aren't exactly known for their quickness, so I'm willing to go a step further and say that at this point Mortarion's Primarch speed was greatly reduced, probably putting them on much more equal footing, even if Draigo lacked the pure power that Mortarion could bring to bear.

 

And JustKimV1 if you have any takes on the fluff or want to discuss it, here is a perfectly good spot to do it. Gree will give the negatives and I'll give the positives. :lol:

[Lord Tharand]

A lot has been said about Draigo's story of fighting Mortarion. In truth it's just a short blurb but you need to understand something about the Grey Knights. They're space marines but they aren't space marines. They're made from the Emperor's gift of His flesh so they're beyond a space marine as far as I'm concerned. Sure, game/stat wise they're just marines but I figure they're closer to a custode than a marine. The Codex says as much by saying that Custodes were equal to the task of protecting the Imperium from Daemons but did not have the free will to do it. So, could an enraged being of this power level do what he did? Sure, if you consider that emotion drives someone to great things and he was likely enraged. Mortarion is not a Primarch anymore he's a Daemon and that comes with some disadvantages against Grey Knights. It's not that horrible of a story. So Mortarion got his butt kicked once in his 10,000+ years of life/daemon.

 

Even a Primarch is beyond a custodes. As a Daemon he would be even tougher than as he was a Primarch, but even a weakned daemon Primarch is more than a match for any one Grey Knight, a sproven with Aurelian and Angron. Angron only fell because he was in the middle of reforming himself while aurelian was supercharged by the powers of his fallen battle brothers. And even then Aurelian still died.

 

Mortarion should be able to one-shot Draigo with ease, let alone the bodyguard in attendance (Which, if this was a battle, would be much more than two Deathshroud if the examples of Angron, Fulgrim and Russ are anything to go by.)

 

And emotion is actually rather a disadvantage in a fight. Angry fighters tend to fight sloppy and let their guard down. A Grey Knight should have iron control over his emotions. If Draigo really lost control of his emotions then he isn't fit to be a Marine, let alone a Grey Knight.

 

Yes, he's a primarch and a daemon but he can be defeated. Real life is full of examples of the weak defeating the mighty and this story can be seen as another David and Goliath. Probably 99 times out of 100 Mortarion wipes the floor with Draigo but it didn't happen in this fight. Maybe he was weak from ripping the previous supreme grand master to shreads. Maybe he didn't take Draigo as a serious threat until it was too late.

 

What was the saying in the Old West? You might be fast but there's always someone faster?

[Inache]

Basically what Lord Tharand said. It's not like Mortarion was going into the fight fresh, he had just gone toe to toe with the previous Supreme Grand Master and whoever was with him. For all we know Mortarion was a wreck hiding behind the front lines trying knit himself back together when Draigo caught up with him. We don't have a Space Marine Battles book to tell us all the gory details, we've got a tiny paragraph on p.15 and a sentence on p.38. There's a lot of reading between the lines there.

[Gree]

Uh, yeah, the whole incorruptible thing was always the Emperor's gene-seed.

 

That is only one of the reasons, but not the main one.

 

Uh, yeah, the whole incorruptible thing was always the Emperor's gene-seed. Saying they're pure because they don't use Chaos is like saying I'm sober because I don't drink alcohol, well no duh, there's something beyond abstaining from using Chaos that makes them pure.

 

No, that's because the Grey Knights used to be Ultra-Puritans who where above daemon weapons and forbidden sorcery. Now they are ''pure'' because of Ward's sue power.

 

The implication has always been the Emperor's gene-seed, and this codex has gone the furthest to say so without implicitly stating it.

 

No it is not. the Grey Knights where always pure because they are puritans.

 

Thus them having a measure of the Emperor's protection from the warp and all its various pitfalls.

 

The Primarchs where made from the Emperor's flesh too, yet they could still be corrupted.

 

The 1k Sons were in the throes of uncontrollable mutation before Magnus was reunited with them. Magnus struck a deal with Tzeentch to stop their mutations. Magnus wrote a blank check to a Chaos God well before Tizca.

 

The Emperor made a dael with Chaos to make the Primarchs. He wrote a blank check for the Chaos Gods to take the Primarchs away.

 

I seem to remember a few instances in this thread where you railed against pragmatism and hypocrisy, yet here you embrace that interpretation.

 

Of course I embraced that interpretation. I never said I fully supported the Emperor's descisions.

 

Which leads into why the Emperor didn't tell Magnus about Chaos. Because knowledge of it would only empower it during a time with the Emperor was trying to bypass Chaos and the warp altogether.

 

Except if he could make ''pure'' sorcery then there would be no point.

 

By the time the Heresy is fully under way it's a little too late to put the cork back into the fountain of knowledge, so creating a force with full disclosure on the methods of Chaos and the manner in which to fight them, including things the Emperor didn't teach to Magnus makes perfect sense. Know your enemy and all that.

 

Except that should have never been nessecary in the first place.

 

The implication in Flight of the Eisenstein is that there are two Deathshroud, so I'm going off that.

 

Primarchs don't go into battle with just two bodyguards. And there is no guarantee that the Deathshroud still served Mortarion. Angron had the Devourers yet still had Bloosthirsters as a bodyguard at Armageddon.

 

And Rogal Dorn died on the bridge of a Chaos cruiser during the first or second Black Crusade, and it wasn't Abbadon's ship, it was some no name regular Chaos Space Marines that took down a Primarch.

 

Again you don't know that. Dorn could have been facing a horde of greater daemons, or heretic dreadnoughts, or an entire army of eneimes. all of which are a very different than one Astartes, no matter how badass he may be. Stop making assumptions.

 

A Grey Knight is going to have an edge on a daemon, even a daemon Primarch, that's going to give Draigo at least a few seconds to do his business.

 

A few seconds is all a Primarch needs to murderstomp Draigo.

 

He didn't kill Mortarion, didn't banish him, he only carved a name onto his heart, and knowing Nurgle, there's nothing to say that Mortarion's black heart wasn't oozing out of his armor making it an easy target.

 

Except he was able to defeat Mortarion and strike him down to the groudn and appearantly hold him still as to carve him name in their. Making it so that someone is alive and can be held down takes much more still than killing banishing someone. It also takes a while to write something in. Draigo could not possibly have the time to do this while Mortarion was appearantly doing nothing.

 

Plus Nurgle and his followers aren't exactly known for their quickness, so I'm willing to go a step further and say that at this point Mortarion's Primarch speed was greatly reduced, probably putting them on much more equal footing, even if Draigo lacked the pure power that Mortarion could bring to bear.

 

No, only some Nurgle daemons have reductions in speed, and that's mostly tabletop mechanics. Fluffwise we have examples of Nurgle Marines moving quite fast.

 

And a Primarch, even with his speed reduced, should be far more skilled than Draigo.

 

Yes, he's a primarch and a daemon but he can be defeated. Real life is full of examples of the weak defeating the mighty and this story can be seen as another David and Goliath. Probably 99 times out of 100 Mortarion wipes the floor with Draigo but it didn't happen in this fight. Maybe he was weak from ripping the previous supreme grand master to shreads. Maybe he didn't take Draigo as a serious threat until it was too late.

 

What was the saying in the Old West? You might be fast but there's always someone faster?

 

Even a weakned distracted Primarch is leagues above even the most powerful and skilled Astartes. Magnus pwn the Great Wolf in Battle of the Fang despite having many wounds from fighting several Space Wolf Dreadnoughts earlier and losing his hold on reality.

 

So, no sell for me.

 

 

So in conclusion, the Grey Knights are ethier Mary Sues of the higest caliber, who can do anythign and use anything because they are ''pure''. Or they are arrogant hypocrites who are undoubtedly slowly being corrupted by the very pwoers they so arrogantly claim to master.

[Marmande]

Just got back from my FLGS and reread the White Dwarf interview. Ward gives the example of the Bloodtide as proof of the Grey Knights' pragmatism, and the interviewer wants to move on because "Mat was relishing the previous example a little too much."

 

He enjoys that bit of fluff. :)

 

The man is a child and a moron.

[Lord Tharand]

Uh, yeah, the whole incorruptible thing was always the Emperor's gene-seed.

 

That is only one of the reasons, but not the main one.

 

Uh, yeah, the whole incorruptible thing was always the Emperor's gene-seed. Saying they're pure because they don't use Chaos is like saying I'm sober because I don't drink alcohol, well no duh, there's something beyond abstaining from using Chaos that makes them pure.

 

No, that's because the Grey Knights used to be Ultra-Puritans who where above daemon weapons and forbidden sorcery. Now they are ''pure'' because of Ward's sue power.

 

The implication has always been the Emperor's gene-seed, and this codex has gone the furthest to say so without implicitly stating it.

 

No it is not. the Grey Knights where always pure because they are puritans.

 

Thus them having a measure of the Emperor's protection from the warp and all its various pitfalls.

 

The Primarchs where made from the Emperor's flesh too, yet they could still be corrupted.

 

The 1k Sons were in the throes of uncontrollable mutation before Magnus was reunited with them. Magnus struck a deal with Tzeentch to stop their mutations. Magnus wrote a blank check to a Chaos God well before Tizca.

 

The Emperor made a dael with Chaos to make the Primarchs. He wrote a blank check for the Chaos Gods to take the Primarchs away.

 

I seem to remember a few instances in this thread where you railed against pragmatism and hypocrisy, yet here you embrace that interpretation.

 

Of course I embraced that interpretation. I never said I fully supported the Emperor's descisions.

 

Which leads into why the Emperor didn't tell Magnus about Chaos. Because knowledge of it would only empower it during a time with the Emperor was trying to bypass Chaos and the warp altogether.

 

Except if he could make ''pure'' sorcery then there would be no point.

 

By the time the Heresy is fully under way it's a little too late to put the cork back into the fountain of knowledge, so creating a force with full disclosure on the methods of Chaos and the manner in which to fight them, including things the Emperor didn't teach to Magnus makes perfect sense. Know your enemy and all that.

 

Except that should have never been nessecary in the first place.

 

The implication in Flight of the Eisenstein is that there are two Deathshroud, so I'm going off that.

 

Primarchs don't go into battle with just two bodyguards. And there is no guarantee that the Deathshroud still served Mortarion. Angron had the Devourers yet still had Bloosthirsters as a bodyguard at Armageddon.

 

And Rogal Dorn died on the bridge of a Chaos cruiser during the first or second Black Crusade, and it wasn't Abbadon's ship, it was some no name regular Chaos Space Marines that took down a Primarch.

 

Again you don't know that. Dorn could have been facing a horde of greater daemons, or heretic dreadnoughts, or an entire army of eneimes. all of which are a very different than one Astartes, no matter how badass he may be. Stop making assumptions.

 

A Grey Knight is going to have an edge on a daemon, even a daemon Primarch, that's going to give Draigo at least a few seconds to do his business.

 

A few seconds is all a Primarch needs to murderstomp Draigo.

 

He didn't kill Mortarion, didn't banish him, he only carved a name onto his heart, and knowing Nurgle, there's nothing to say that Mortarion's black heart wasn't oozing out of his armor making it an easy target.

 

Except he was able to defeat Mortarion and strike him down to the groudn and appearantly hold him still as to carve him name in their. Making it so that someone is alive and can be held down takes much more still than killing banishing someone. It also takes a while to write something in. Draigo could not possibly have the time to do this while Mortarion was appearantly doing nothing.

 

Plus Nurgle and his followers aren't exactly known for their quickness, so I'm willing to go a step further and say that at this point Mortarion's Primarch speed was greatly reduced, probably putting them on much more equal footing, even if Draigo lacked the pure power that Mortarion could bring to bear.

 

No, only some Nurgle daemons have reductions in speed, and that's mostly tabletop mechanics. Fluffwise we have examples of Nurgle Marines moving quite fast.

 

And a Primarch, even with his speed reduced, should be far more skilled than Draigo.

 

Yes, he's a primarch and a daemon but he can be defeated. Real life is full of examples of the weak defeating the mighty and this story can be seen as another David and Goliath. Probably 99 times out of 100 Mortarion wipes the floor with Draigo but it didn't happen in this fight. Maybe he was weak from ripping the previous supreme grand master to shreads. Maybe he didn't take Draigo as a serious threat until it was too late.

 

What was the saying in the Old West? You might be fast but there's always someone faster?

 

Even a weakned distracted Primarch is leagues above even the most powerful and skilled Astartes. Magnus pwn the Great Wolf in Battle of the Fang despite having many wounds from fighting several Space Wolf Dreadnoughts earlier and losing his hold on reality.

 

So, no sell for me.

 

Darth Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith and Luke, a mostly untrained Jedi novice, beat him. He also blew up a Deathstar.

 

If you aren't willing to accept that there are no certainties in life and sometimes the unthinkable can happen then we're just going to argue in circles. I agree, some of the new fluff is silly but a Daemon Primarch losing a fight from a battle that is barely described isn't one of them.

[Gree]

Darth Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith and Luke, a mostly untrained Jedi novice, beat him. He also blew up a Deathstar.

 

Vader was holding back for both fights because Luke was his son and Vader wanted Luke to turn to the Dark Side. Vader pwned Luke in their first duel at Bespin, and in their second fight Luke had already completed his training under Yoda and contstructed his lightsaber. Vader's primary objective in both fights was to corrupt his son to the Dark Side so he could kill Palpatine.

 

And Luke took out the Death Star because of the Force and Tarkin was enough of an idiot not to deploy the tens of thosuands of TIE fighters.

 

If you aren't willing to accept that there are no certainties in life and sometimes the unthinkable can happen then we're just going to argue in circles. I agree, some of the new fluff is silly but a Daemon Primarch losing a fight from a battle that is barely described isn't one of them.

 

A Daemon Primarch and his entire bodyguard, not only losing to, but is held down and humilated by a single Grey Knight is the height of absurdity, no matter how you want to justify it.

[SeanDrake]

The Blood Tide thing is a piss poor joke in pretty bad taste that i'm guessing ward thinks is a hilarious and subtle piece of comedy.

 

basicly a tide of blood begins to flow and the majority the FEMALE warriors go bat ;) crazy etc etc

[Inache]

the Grey Knights where always pure because they are puritans.

 

You're equating two things that aren't necessarily connected. Puritans follow strict Imperial dogma, and the one rule in Codex:Daemonhunters not allowing Radical Inquisitors to take Daemonhosts if GK's are present doesn't make the GK's Puritans. The GK's have dealing with xenos. That automatically flies in the face of the Puritan label. The only P that really goes with the GK's is Pragmatic. They probably still don't trust Inquisitors who use daemonhosts, but the rule isn't there any more, so that's not a fluff issue that's a rule issue. Since it's not negated in Codex Grey Knights, there is no fluff conflict. And the sorcery=corruption argument is tenuous. Between Grand Master quotes and Emperor's Guidebook to Psyker Mastery there's not a whole lot of ground to stand on when it comes to sorcery=evil. Sorcery also doesn't equal safe, but among the people who stand the best chance of harnessing it as safely as humanly possible it's the Grey Knights.

 

And yeah, no Primarch was corrupted by Chaos by proximity or other arbitrary action. They all fell to Chaos by choice. GK's are psycho-indoctrinated, mind wiped, reconstructed personalities without even the chance of ever succumbing to the lures of Chaos by choice since that goes against their entire nature since they were designed to be that way unlike, I don't know, the Primarchs.

 

And the bridge of a ship doesn't really have room for a horde of greater daemons, but I'll drop the Dorn, since obviously the Primarchs are just a bunch of overpowered Mary Su...oh wait. Hmmm...an overpowered post-human doing remarkable things. That sounds familiar.

[Gree]

the Grey Knights where always pure because they are puritans.

 

You're equating two things that aren't necessarily connected.

 

Yes they are.

 

The GK's have dealing with xenos.

 

Only in the new fluff.

 

That automatically flies in the face of the Puritan label.

 

Once again, product of the new fluff.

 

The only P that really goes with the GK's is Pragmatic.

 

Again, new Ward fluff.

 

And the sorcery=corruption argument is tenuous.

 

No, that's how it's always been presented in 40k.

 

Between Grand Master quotes and Emperor's Guidebook to Psyker Mastery there's not a whole lot of ground to stand on when it comes to sorcery=evil.

 

Did you learn nothing fron A Thousand Sons? Or the various source books that detail that sorcery is bad?

 

Sorcery also doesn't equal safe, but among the people who stand the best chance of harnessing it as safely as humanly possible it's the Grey Knights.

 

Sorcery can't be mastered truely. It always corrupts.

 

And yeah, no Primarch was corrupted by Chaos by proximity or other arbitrary action. They all fell to Chaos by choice.

 

Daemon sword? Ring any bells?

 

They all fell to Chaos by choice. GK's are psycho-indoctrinated, mind wiped, reconstructed personalities without even the chance of ever succumbing to the lures of Chaos by choice since that goes against their entire nature since they were designed to be that way unlike, I don't know, the Primarchs.

 

And apart of those reconstructed personalitites was not using daemon weaposn and shying wholely away from the daemonic.

 

And the bridge of a ship doesn't really have room for a horde of greater daemons,

 

Again, you don't know how big the bridge of a Despoiler-class battleship is. You are making assumptions once more.

 

but I'll drop the Dorn, since obviously the Primarchs are just a bunch of overpowered Mary Su...oh wait. Hmmm...an overpowered post-human doing remarkable things. That sounds familiar.

 

Except we have precedence for them being greater than Astartes, Custodes and Grey Knights. We have precedence for them having actual personalities. We have precedence for them failing. Hardly Mary Sues if you bother to look. Draigo is nothing compared to the Primarchs.

[Codicier Lucion]

the Grey Knights where always pure because they are puritans.

 

You're equating two things that aren't necessarily connected. Puritans follow strict Imperial dogma, and the one rule in Codex:Daemonhunters not allowing Radical Inquisitors to take Daemonhosts if GK's are present doesn't make the GK's Puritans.

 

The reason radical inquisitors wouldn't have the Grey Knights show up is because they'd end up killing them the second they saw the daemonhost. Or anything non imperial. Hell, they would probably lance strike the place from orbit, just to be sure.

 

They took down the Sons of Malice because they were known to be involved in cannibalistic rituals for crying out loud.

 

The GK's have dealing with xenos. That automatically flies in the face of the Puritan label. The only P that really goes with the GK's is Pragmatic.

 

The last ten years of fluff said otherwise. Ward's fanfiction is the only thing which suggests this. The Grey Knights can be pragmatic in some individual cases, again read the damn Grey Knights trilogy, but they wouldn't stoop to heresy en mass.

 

They probably still don't trust Inquisitors who use daemonhosts, but the rule isn't there any more, so that's not a fluff issue that's a rule issue. Since it's not negated in Codex Grey Knights, there is no fluff conflict.

 

Daemons = corruption. Corruption = heresy. There's no subtle way around his. It's a basic thing relating to the Imperium. If you're pure you kill daemons, xenos and all people who consort with them. Only on VERY specific occasions are certain people allowed to get away with doing anything but killing them on site.

 

And the sorcery=corruption argument is tenuous. Between Grand Master quotes and Emperor's Guidebook to Psyker Mastery there's not a whole lot of ground to stand on when it comes to sorcery=evil. Sorcery also doesn't equal safe, but among the people who stand the best chance of harnessing it as safely as humanly possible it's the Grey Knights.

 

Sorcery = Tzeentch. Nothing else really needs to be said about that. It is evil. Also, how about the council of Nikea, where all sorcery was banned due to possible corruption. Something the Emperor decided. That sort of suggests it's evil and dangerous.

 

And yeah, no Primarch was corrupted by Chaos by proximity or other arbitrary action. They all fell to Chaos by choice. GK's are psycho-indoctrinated, mind wiped, reconstructed personalities without even the chance of ever succumbing to the lures of Chaos by choice since that goes against their entire nature since they were designed to be that way unlike, I don't know, the Primarchs.

 

Perturabo. He didn't have much of a choice. Nor did Luthor. And how about Fulgrim. Or for that matter Mortarion, Angron and a few others. Most were tricked or forced into compliance with chaos. Or simply joined Horus without turning.

 

And the bridge of a ship doesn't really have room for a horde of greater daemons, but I'll drop the Dorn, since obviously the Primarchs are just a bunch of overpowered Mary Su...oh wait. Hmmm...an overpowered post-human doing remarkable things. That sounds familiar.

 

The primarchs were a group of demi-gods genetically created to be superior and capable of killing dragons, aliens and tyrants from birth with little to no difficulty and have been shown to take Titans one on one and win. They were specifically created to be utterly superior and super powered from the very beginning.

 

Draigo is some jumped up nobody suddenly capable of great feats for little to no reason, as well as being able to out do most of the primarchs. Mary Sue, no question about it.