Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Sothalor]

There's even more :P ;) moments in the codex like where it offhandedly mentions how Grey Knights that are powerful enough can make themselves immune to death and bring the dead back to life. You can't just drop a line like that without developing it! What kind of implications does that hold for the Knights and the setting as a whole?!

 

As to the whole "fantasy hero" concept, yes that's legit. The problem is that fictional narrative heroes are only compelling when there's tension, peril, and difficulty that they struggle against and overcome, often at great personal cost and they frequently are irrevocably changed as a result of their experiences. Overall, this codex is lacking that quality.

 

The Grey Knights are just so awesome: they have the best equipment, they have the best training, they get to use "sorcery" to gain all its benefits without any of its downsides because "it was the Emperor's gift," and they curbstomp their enemies because, hey, it's what they do.

 

I think the WD interview with Ward where he talks about the Dreadknight sums it up. And I actually like the Dreadknight. On page 25 Ward says, "There is a powerful image there of a Grey Knight versus a Greater Daemon. But rather than David and Goliath, we thought it would be much more fun to have Goliath vs. Goliath. It evens things up."

 

Now, I understand the appeal that might have for people. Indeed, several years ago I probably would've thought this fluff was awesome in straightforward sense. My tastes and preferences have changed since then.

 

Personally, I think the "Goliath vs. Goliath" idea works in terms of game mechanics and rules. It makes sense that any weaker party would look for a force equalizer. It doesn't work as a template for creating background and stories. Think about it: which battle against a Daemon Primarch fought by the Grey Knights is looked upon as a defining moment of glory by the fans? The one where 100 Terminators took on Angron and 97 of them died to give their captain a chance at banishing him at the cost of his own life, or the one where Draigo "alone and unaided" humiliates Mortarion?

 

If your characters are always the best, the most skilled, the most favored, the most successful guys on the block that are always coming out on top it makes for dull, uninteresting, stupid stories. Why should I lament the fact that Draigo is lost in the Warp? He seems to be thriving there! He's so over-the-top-awesome that he's like the worst kind of Dungeon Master Character, the one that upstages all the Player Characters, that consumes plots and makes world events revolve around him like he's a narrative black hole: "You Only Wish You Could Be As Awesome As I Am."

[Inache]

The pragmatism of the Grey Knights has never been called into question. The 1st Battle of Armageddon and its aftermath is proof of that. The Grey Knights have always done the hard things to save the majority. A lot of this fluff isn't new. The Grey Knights worked with the Harlequins before, FYI those are xenos. Wanna bring up Counter and his fluff? Sure, as I posted earlier in this thread, there are some extreme measures to arm and protect Grey Knights, incredibly pragmatic and unpalatable.

 

Sorcery corrupts you say? Who's the most powerful human psyker that dabbled in it? Oh the Emperor you say, well he doesn't look too corrupt to me. And his secrets about warp craft that he shared with no one else passed on to the Grey Knights? Hmmm, interesting, so they have defenses that no one save the Emperor and probably by extension Malcador has ever practiced, that would make them uniquely suited to deal with the warp and Chaos. Would everything the GK's do be considered sorcery? No. Some of it? Yeah. Utterly corrupt? Definitely not. Magnus and the 1k Sons were unwittingly harnessing daemons to boost their combat prowess. The Emperor banned it outright to avoid having to explain Chaos to his fledgling secular Imperium.

 

Oh and Horus! Felled by a lowly human governor! Surely there must be extenuating circumstances! A daemon blade that allowed Chaos to present Horus with a picture of events that he chose to accept as truth, and there he goes! All the Primarchs had a choice, Fulgrim could have put the sword down and fought the daemon that was trying to possess him, but he yielded and gave up his body, Perturabo razed Olympia by his own choice, Luthor wasn't even a Primarch.

 

And adding powerful characters to fluff! The heresy of it all!

[SpecialIssue]

I'm just goin to jump in here quickly. I feel the latest fluff has caused the GK to lose their mystique. We sorta know too much about them now to be truly venerate them as the best the Imperium has to offer. Their founding I feel should have been left shrouded - too much detail made some parts just feel tacky, wherein a little mystery and darkness would have set them apart from others. The intrigue and excitement of being in the dark always lasts longer than the momentary gratification of finding the light switch.

 

They were in my mind, always that distant legendary brotherhood, shrouded in legend and without glorious tales recalled of them, yet venerated and looked up to nonetheless, by every Imperial - puritan, radical, Black Templar, Blood Angel. Paragons to every astartes chapter and the Imperium, truly a living link to the more enlightened past age 10,000 years ago, perhaps showing the truer side of the Emperor's will.

Iron willed, yet pragmatic; noble knights at heart, yet also realistic about what needs to be done. Even their name evokes this - Grey Knights, a neutral, noble name, unlike the polarized ones of other Imperials - Black Templars, White Consuls, Ultramarines. Humble, silent, reserved, slow to anger (pride and insult lead to corruption, Mr. Kaldor Draigo). Lone men and small squads going up against foes that tower over them (not the other way around!) and impossible odds. Incorruptibility coming not from arcane rituals or sorcery, but pure, titanic strength of willpower of each brother, battles against corruption fought as much as in the mind as on the physical plane.

 

I feel it is this nobility that has been lost, what with the emphasis on their ruthlessness, and usage of sorcery. There is plenty of ruthless to go around in the 41st millennium - but true nobility is a rare thing, and was what set the chapter apart in my eyes, as a last link with the true will of the Emperor. They are now thematically just another chapter with a ruthless streak, but with shiny toys.

 

As said before, they are perhaps closer to custodes - but not in ability - but in spirit, given they were touched by the very Emperor at their founding. Over and above other astartes not just in quantifiable psychic mastery or equipment, but on outlook and values. Grey Knights. Elite of the Emperor's astartes, noble and brave. Defenders, not aggressors against darkness, one of the last link to a golden age and outlook. Exceptional in every circumstance.

 

I'm not happy with the new fluff. *sigh*

[Gree]

The pragmatism of the Grey Knights has never been called into question. The 1st Battle of Armageddon and its aftermath is proof of that. The Grey Knights have always done the hard things to save the majority.

 

None of which involved unclean sorcery or use of unholy rituals.

 

The Grey Knights worked with the Harlequins before,

 

Where is this mentioned?

 

Wanna bring up Counter and his fluff? Sure, as I posted earlier in this thread, there are some extreme measures to arm and protect Grey Knights, incredibly pragmatic and unpalatable.

 

Even Counter ackowledges that Alaric's actions are unsual. You certainly don't see his actions as standard policy.

 

Sorcery corrupts you say?

 

That's how it's always been presented.

 

Who's the most powerful human psyker that dabbled in it? Oh the Emperor you say, well he doesn't look too corrupt to me.

 

Grammaticus was reportedly horrifed just to see his true form. and the Emperor's sorceries backfired on him when chaos took back the Primarchs.

 

And his secrets about warp craft that he shared with no one else passed on to the Grey Knights? Hmmm, interesting, so they have defenses that no one save the Emperor and probably by extension Malcador has ever practiced, that would make them uniquely suited to deal with the warp and Chaos.

 

Only according to Ward's fanfiction.

 

Would everything the GK's do be considered sorcery? No. Some of it? Yeah. Utterly corrupt? Definitely not.

 

Definitely yes. All sorcery is corrupt.

 

Magnus and the 1k Sons were unwittingly harnessing daemons to boost their combat prowess. The Emperor banned it outright to avoid having to explain Chaos to his fledgling secular Imperium.

 

Which logcially should not have been nessecary if the Emperor had a ''safe'' form of sorcery. However the Grey Knights don't have daemonic familar, although with Ward's fanfiction I would't be suprised.

 

Oh and Horus! Felled by a lowly human governor! Surely there must be extenuating circumstances!

 

Correct, said Governor was enhanced by Chaos and the hand of the Dark Gods was clearly evident. the weapon he used was also special, the the rebel also lost in the end.

 

All the Primarchs had a choice, Fulgrim could have put the sword down and fought the daemon that was trying to possess him, but he yielded and gave up his body,

 

Because he was tricked into doing it without knowledge of Chaos.

 

Perturabo razed Olympia by his own choice,

 

Because they where rebelling.

 

Luthor wasn't even a Primarch.

 

And as such should have no relevance to your point.

 

And adding powerful characters to fluff! The heresy of it all!

 

Exactly. Draigo is poorly written and shoehorned in as everybody's fanfic character they wrote when they where 12.

[Inache]

Well I've grown bored with this since we've been going in circles for 15 pages. You don't like it and won't change your mind, I like it and I'm not changing my mind, so there's really no reason to continue this. The final issue is that this is the established fluff now love it or hate it, so suck it up until next edition.

[Gree]

Well I've grown bored with this since we've been going in circles for 15 pages. You don't like it and won't change your mind, I like it and I'm not changing my mind, so there's really no reason to continue this. The final issue is that this is the established fluff now love it or hate it, so suck it up until next edition.

 

Oh no, all I have to do is wait for A-D-B's Grey Knight novel and the FFG's Grey Knight book for some real GK fluff to adress Ward's fanfiction.

[Codicier Lucion]

The pragmatism of the Grey Knights has never been called into question. The 1st Battle of Armageddon and its aftermath is proof of that. The Grey Knights have always done the hard things to save the majority.

 

Agreed.

 

A lot of this fluff isn't new.

 

Wrong. I'm going to avoid ranting by simply quoting an article from another site.

 

Suddenly Fail

 

When the Grey Knights Codex update was announced, there was considerable discussion amongst /tg/; finally, an army that needed it was going to get an update. Anticipation turned to balls-out horror, however, when it was discovered that Matthew "Spiritual Liege" Ward was going to do the codex. Matt was notorious for :cussing up the fluff of the Blood Angels (turning them into necrophiliacs) and Space Smurfs (turning them into SECOND TO TEH EMPRAH marines, simultaneously enfuriating those who actually liked the Ultramarines fluff in which they took their lumps but fought on (I.E. the Manly route) and those who already disliked Ultramarines. Virtually all the fluff in the 5th Edition Space Marine codex was for the Ultramarines, with especially strong emphasis placed on shafting any army who told Rawbutt Girlyman to go :D himself, such as the Raven Guard and Black Templars).

 

Considering that Matt had placed so much ascended fanboy :cussy on the Ultramarines, many, especially on /tg/, were wondering how, exactly, he was intending to handle the fluff of the Grey Knights, who were trained to be the best of the best. The face-palm worthy answer came in the form of leaked information regarding the Codex:

He would handle it exactly like the giant :D that he is.

 

Gray Knights now roam around carving their names in the daemon hearts of daemon primarchs - you know, the ones that single-handedly destroyed empires and have ascended to daemonhood. That any man would be capable of this, given that the Warp is the very essence of the Daemonic and ergo their numbers are limitless and their powers inviolate, and the 10+ years of canon regarding just that was completely disregarded - because Matt Ward said so. So they have one guy (who is such a bit of lunacy that 1d4chan has given him his own article) running around the warp, killing Slaanesh's chosen handmaidens, burning down the gardens of Nurgle, and though it wasn't expressly stated in his fluff article, likely figuring out Tzeentch's Infinite Labyrinth. True to all Matt Ward fluff, how Draigo managed to escape going insane from warp exposure, become Slaanesh's sex-slave after setting eyes on She who thirsts, being popped like a Zit by Khorne, not catching space daemon AIDS from being in the plaguefather and Mortarion's presence (let alone carving anything on his heart), or simply being drowned in bodies that make his armor/invulnerable saves irrelevant (the usual way to deal with Grey Knights on the tabletop) is never explained. This is Ward we're talking about, and he shows as much grace as black Irish lepers when handling fluff.

 

Not content to beat canon with just one codex entry, he then made it so that Daemonhosts could be taken by a Grey Knights army. For the uninitiated, this was, again, another slap in the face of 10+ years of canon, since in literally every :cussing work put out by Games Workshop, has had them view Daemonhosts as the darkest form of Heresy and dealing with those that harbor them the same way they deal with anything daemonic. Not content to leave well enough alone, they can now work with radical Inquisitors, who, again, now harbor the daemonic in the form of Daemonblades.

 

Then he gave most of the Sisters of Battle special characters to the Grey Knights, such as Lord Krazypantsoff, since - y'know, that army hadn't been brutalized enough for Matt's taste. He then proceeded to give them an absolutely-ridiculous-looking (and widely mocked by /tg/) walker called a Dreadknight that counts as a monstrous creature, can do a huge personal teleport to get where it needs to be, and which basically is a Grey Knight Terminator hooked into a bigger armor suit - yes, it's every bit as insane and retarded (and broken) as it sounds. As one clever Ultramarines player, fed up with Matt Ward's :P, put it:

"Yo dawg, we heard you like powered armor so we put powered armor in your powered armor so you can go to war while you go to war"

 

Quite.

 

Throw in a ton of extra cheese, a commander that out-Creed's Creed (it can Scout more units than Creed can with Tactical Genius) by a sizable margain, throw in a ton of retarded violations of fluff like the aforementioned, and several other bits of flaming stupid (such as the oversight which allows players to take entire armies of Jokaero, which, depending on who you are, could be a bad thing or a funny thing), and you have the new Grey Knights Codex in a nutshell.

 

The God-Emperor of Mankind wept.

 

The Grey Knights worked with the Harlequins before, FYI those are xenos.

 

Expand upon this and fully explain the situation, cite sources and give details as to what took place. Then i'll answer.

 

Wanna bring up Counter and his fluff? Sure, as I posted earlier in this thread, there are some extreme measures to arm and protect Grey Knights, incredibly pragmatic and unpalatable.

 

Most of Counter's reasons behind that generally stuck with other fluff, were based upon things already known and usually expanded upon things previously mentioned. It did not spit in the face of ten years of canon and turn into bad fanfiction. Unlike Ward's drivel.

 

Yeah, one was incredibly pragmatic and unpalatable. His name was Alaric and was frequently noted to be that, to the point where he wasn't even sure if he could call himself a Grey Knight by the end of the trilogy.

 

Sorcery corrupts you say? Who's the most powerful human psyker that dabbled in it? Oh the Emperor you say, well he doesn't look too corrupt to me.

 

Who was also a god in all but name. The fact he was powerful enough to make the four gods of chaos fearful of him speaks for itself. Again mortals we're talking about here.

 

And his secrets about warp craft that he shared with no one else passed on to the Grey Knights? Hmmm, interesting, so they have defenses that no one save the Emperor and probably by extension Malcador has ever practiced, that would make them uniquely suited to deal with the warp and Chaos.

 

...

 

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!

 

That stuff never happened until the recent fanfiction which passes for the Grey Knights codex. And I don't think the Emperor could pass on his secrets about warp craft due to being in the golden throne and all. And so what if they're uniquely suited to dealing with chaos, that gives them no excuse to use it or commit acts of heresy.

 

Would everything the GK's do be considered sorcery? No. Some of it? Yeah. Utterly corrupt? Definitely not. Magnus and the 1k Sons were unwittingly harnessing daemons to boost their combat prowess. The Emperor banned it outright to avoid having to explain Chaos to his fledgling secular Imperium.

 

And yet he still banned it. Sorcery is corrupt. It's why inquisitors shoot those who perform acts of sorcery. Why chaos armies are specifically noted to use sorcerers. Why certain psychic powers are labelled as such as opposed to sorcery and why Tzeentch is called the god of sorcery occasionally.

 

And how is harnessing daemons to boost power any different from carrying daemon swords and using daemonhosts to boost their own army strength. Simple, it isn't.

 

Oh and Horus! Felled by a lowly human governor! Surely there must be extenuating circumstances! A daemon blade that allowed Chaos to present Horus with a picture of events that he chose to accept as truth, and there he goes!

 

A chaos powered governor armed with an incredibly powerful daemon blade. The fact that he had been on good terms with Horus might have also influenced things a bit.

 

There had also been quite a few things prior to Horus' fall to that weapon, not to mention the fact a lot of stuff suggests he was subtly possessed by the daemon in it, so i'm going to guess Tzeentch had a hand in things. Certainly fuelling his doubts about the Emperor and the crusade certainly.

 

All the Primarchs had a choice, Fulgrim could have put the sword down and fought the daemon that was trying to possess him, but he yielded and gave up his body,

 

The novel suggested otherwise based upon what we saw of him. I'm not saying what he did was smart, but the longer he had it, the harder it was to resist it.

 

Perturabo razed Olympia by his own choice, Luthor wasn't even a Primarch.

 

Yes while being influenced by a daemon weapon. And why does Luthor's state as a simple astartes matter. He still turned.

 

And adding powerful characters to fluff! The heresy of it all!

 

It is when you make them so powerful they're second only to the Emperor in terms of power and could bench press the Nightbringer.

 

Vulkan - Good new character.

Khan - Good new character.

Sicarius - Mary sue.

Draigo - Old fan character which Matt Ward deserves to be lynched for thinking up.

[Marmande]

Inache, your dogmatic defense of Ward's fluff (using it as it's own justification) is quickly becoming as strained and unbelievable as, well, Ward's fluff.

[Notanoob]

And just to address Dorn's death, he had a number of things going against him.

1. He was severely depressed, what we would call emo if we saw it. Pain glove anyone? He felt like a failure, and blamed himself for his father's death.

2. He was outnumbered.

3. He was attack the second largest ship available to the forces of chaos, the only ship larger is Abbadon's own Planet Killer.

4. This was an attack to try and delay a BLACK CRUSADE. That means it's one hell of a gathering of power, and you know who's going to be in control of that ship? A Chosen of Abbadon, one of the most powerful servants of the Dark Gods. I'd like to remind you that the other tactician primarch, the Lion, had a pretty close fight with a very demonically enhanced Luthor. Implications were that all the Chaos gods were lending a hand their.

5. Despite his natural power, he was never the close combat monster primarch, he's always been the tactician. Alone and depressed, I doubt that he was thinking strait. Thus the mad rush for the bridge and not the main reactor or a magazine.

[Justcar]

It is at this point that I must wash my hands of this thread.

 

In stead of a discussion on the vagaries/interesting implications of the new fluff it has devolved into a spiraling argument about why people HATE/WANT TO BURN EVERYTHING RELATED TO THE NEW FLUFF, people just complaining, or people just bashing Ward. It is tiresome.

 

Honestly, the fluff isn't the devil! It has its :(? moments, but I like the way the Grey Knights are presented. I do not see them as heretical or corrupted. I see them as being a badass organization of warrior-mages, who are the only ones with the expertise and esoteric knowledge required to destroy daemons.

 

I tire of people bashing Matt Ward. It gets old and accomplishes nothing. He did a good job with the rules, and the fluff is actually good on the whole. Does he have issues? YES! (I prefer Kelly) But he is not evil and out to ruin the Grey Knights!

 

In the end, this IS the new fluff! People are going to have to live with that. I am not the kind of person that would vehemently seek to destroy everything in the new codex. I see it as: this is what you have to work with, make it work for you!

 

If you dislike the new fluff, I empathize with you and respect your opinion, but disagree with it. Hopefully you will be able to get past it and enjoy a very nice army.

 

In the past few months though, I have learned a few things. People are ALWAYS going to dislike something. People dislike the new models. I can't see why!! They are great!! People dislike the new codex. I can see why, but I don't interpret it that way. (in my opinion, the old dex made the Grey Knights boring as :cuss)

 

Hope you guys have a fun!

 

Daniel

[Boshea]

The fluff is interesting to say they least. I dig Thawn and Mordrak, but Draigo and Crowe bug me. As outlined already Crowe's entire purpose is to protect the super special awesome daemon sword, by bringing it into every battle with him where it actively tries to kill him. Draigo is just bad fanfiction. We've gone from it taking 100 Grey Knights to simply send a Daemon Primarch back to the warp to one man crusading across the warp bringing the emperor's fury. I didn't think Calgar's exploits could be topped, but it looks like Draigo would consider Calgar's exploits a light workout.

 

The rules, except for Coteaz which will likely be fixed, look to be solid at least.

[Doomaflatchi]

As for the previously mentioned sorcery bit, I would like to point out that that is specifically addressed in the new Codex - it's not the sorcery (also known as psychic power) that's corrupting, but the Daemons who attack through a person's sorcerous powers. Likewise, it's not that the specific type of sorcery wielded by the Grey Knights is somehow "Chaos clean", but that the Grey Knights themselves are free from even the possibility of being tainted by Chaos (which is why they're different than every other group of psykers who've come before, like the Thousand Sons). Thus, they can use their psychic powers with moral impunity, as the Daemon can find no purchase in their souls through which to attack them.

 

Also, as a point of clarification, please don't call Ward's work on the new Codex "fanfiction". That's not what fanfiction means. The Codex, like all Codices, is cannon, like it or not - and honestly, if we can't use new cannon works to justify fluff... how, exactly, will they ever write anything new? :huh:

 

Honestly, my biggest complaint about the fluff is how often I read the words "and of his entire strike force, he alone survived." :tu:

[AlexHolker]

I do not see them as heretical or corrupted.

And that's the problem. Ward's fluff is basically a long story about how the Grey Knights walk like ducks, look like ducks, quack like ducks, swim like ducks, but are actually cats. Ward's incoherent attempts to cover his own ass don't change that.

 

The Codex, like all Codices, is cannon, like it or not - and honestly, if we can't use new cannon works to justify fluff... how, exactly, will they ever write anything new? :tu:

You cannot use new canon to justify itself - you can either write something that aligns itself with the world created by previous canon, or you can write something good enough that it doesn't need to be justified.

[Codicier Lucion]

It is at this point that I must wash my hands of this thread.

 

In stead of a discussion on the vagaries/interesting implications of the new fluff it has devolved into a spiraling argument about why people HATE/WANT TO BURN EVERYTHING RELATED TO THE NEW FLUFF, people just complaining, or people just bashing Ward. It is tiresome.

 

Well, Ward bashing does seem to be the local pastime of most online Warhammer players these days. It probably wouldn't be quite so prevalent if he didn't keep giving people ammunition and actually accepted some of the criticisms of his work.

 

Honestly, the fluff isn't the devil! It has its ;)? moments, but I like the way the Grey Knights are presented. I do not see them as heretical or corrupted. I see them as being a badass organization of warrior-mages, who are the only ones with the expertise and esoteric knowledge required to destroy daemons.

 

Okay, most of that I would have just said 'each to their own to' but when the hell did they begin begin able to outright destroy daemons? Is this something in the new codex?

 

I tire of people bashing Matt Ward. It gets old and accomplishes nothing. He did a good job with the rules, and the fluff is actually good on the whole. Does he have issues? YES! (I prefer Kelly) But he is not evil and out to ruin the Grey Knights!

 

No, he acts like a child on a sugar rush and most codexes by him look as if they've been written while he was heavily drinking. He has no concept of balance, no concept of letting an army be beatable and little to no concept of being in keeping with other people's writings.

 

He's like the Karen Traviss of 40K, he knows nothing about what he's writing about and ignores most fluff he doesn't like.

 

In the end, this IS the new fluff! People are going to have to live with that. I am not the kind of person that would vehemently seek to destroy everything in the new codex. I see it as: this is what you have to work with, make it work for you!

 

Except that we can't. He's choosing to spit on ten years of solid, decent canon by writing this and quite frankly it contradicts nearly everything in 40K. The whole part involving Draigo is just one example of that, not to mention things like the Daemonhosts.

 

It can't be the new fluff if it has screwed up every most basic aspect of the universe and seems to outright contradict every other codex there is.

 

In the past few months though, I have learned a few things. People are ALWAYS going to dislike something. People dislike the new models. I can't see why!! They are great!! People dislike the new codex. I can see why, but I don't interpret it that way. (in my opinion, the old dex made the Grey Knights boring as :lol:)

 

Yes, some fans will always dislike something about what has been written by someone. But when an author's name has become a by word for 'bad codex writer' and he has most of the fandom up in arms over the stuff he's made, it's time to think about what you're actually writing for a moment.

 

As for the models, they're ridiculous. The old Grey Knights were noted to be very Spartan when they came to their armour. They didn't need hundreds of icons and proof of their exploits, they were Grey Knights.

We've gone from very subdued, disciplined and minimalist looks like this.

To monstrosities of colour, gold and icons like these.

[TheReclusiarch]

Awesome fluff is awesome. Love it!

[Gree]

As for the previously mentioned sorcery bit, I would like to point out that that is specifically addressed in the new Codex - it's not the sorcery (also known as psychic power) that's corrupting, but the Daemons who attack through a person's sorcerous powers.

 

No, that is only in Ward's new fluff. in other sources it's presented differently.

 

Also, as a point of clarification, please don't call Ward's work on the new Codex "fanfiction". That's not what fanfiction means. The Codex, like all Codices, is cannon, like it or not - and honestly, if we can't use new cannon works to justify fluff... how, exactly, will they ever write anything new? :D

 

I'll call Ward's fanfiction whatever I want to call it. I consider his work to be about the same quality.

[Lord Tharand]

The thing with Draigo is that no matter how badass he can make himself in the Warp nothing he does is lasting. All the demons he kills respawn. Nurgles garden regrows. Anything he destroys puts itself back together. He's a prisoner trapped in a box. There are brief moments he gets to return to the real world when the warp and reality intersect but its not often. The Grey Knights like to trap daemons in little tesseract labyrinths. The irony is that daemons have basically done the exact same thing to Draigo.

[Chairman_woo]

The thing with Draigo is that no matter how badass he can make himself in the Warp nothing he does is lasting. All the demons he kills respawn. Nurgles garden regrows. Anything he destroys puts itself back together. He's a prisoner trapped in a box. There are brief moments he gets to return to the real world when the warp and reality intersect but its not often. The Grey Knights like to trap daemons in little tesseract labyrinths. The irony is that daemons have basically done the exact same thing to Draigo.

 

Yes absolutely thats the whole point of Draigo, hes actually a massively tragic charachter doomed to fail/achive nothing dispite his mindbending heroism and foritude. Its so easy to make the fluff work just as it always has. Pick the bits you like and treat the rest as the biased ramblings of a story being told from the perspective of the group in question.

 

Those of you who seem to think that this is a new phenomenon are suffering from a bad case of rose tinted spectacles. The fluff has always been inconsitent you were just young enough at the time to have not developed the sense of entitlement that plagues adults all over the world.

 

Go walk into a GW shop this week and look at the ear to ear grins on the childrens faces, the fluff is not and never was written to please the older, cynical and self important nerds most of us grew up to be. It was written to please the mass market (you know the ones that actually give them most the money). Maybe my GW is in some kindof alternative universe but the OVERWHELMING majority of customers are very happy just like basicaly always.

 

Dunno if you noticed but Matt Ward is GW's main writer at the moment i.e. he gets all the big cash cows. You arnt a child anymore, you are old enough to write your own material so if you really dont like the artistic direction GW has taken go get a job with GW or submit some better material of your own. Bleating on forums is largely ignored by GW for good reason as its mostly a case of "I want it to be this way and it isent so the codex writer must be an ar****e!". Deal with it or use your imagination, but dont blame Matt Ward because clearly he's doing exactly what GW wants from him!

 

 

*Straps on fire proof underpants and braces for the flames....*

[AoC]

It is at this point that I must wash my hands of this thread.

 

In stead of a discussion on the vagaries/interesting implications of the new fluff it has devolved into a spiraling argument about why people HATE/WANT TO BURN EVERYTHING RELATED TO THE NEW FLUFF, people just complaining, or people just bashing Ward. It is tiresome.

 

Honestly, the fluff isn't the devil! It has its :)? moments, but I like the way the Grey Knights are presented. I do not see them as heretical or corrupted. I see them as being a badass organization of warrior-mages, who are the only ones with the expertise and esoteric knowledge required to destroy daemons.

 

I tire of people bashing Matt Ward. It gets old and accomplishes nothing. He did a good job with the rules, and the fluff is actually good on the whole. Does he have issues? YES! (I prefer Kelly) But he is not evil and out to ruin the Grey Knights!

 

Point is, he didn't. He killed inquisition (masters of the grey knights), he broken psilencers, he made subpar troop choices, he created draigo, he made some options that will never see competitive play (power armor for acolytes for example), he linked units unlocks with special characters and many other flaws in just rules.

 

In the end, this IS the new fluff! People are going to have to live with that. I am not the kind of person that would vehemently seek to destroy everything in the new codex. I see it as: this is what you have to work with, make it work for you!

 

If you dislike the new fluff, I empathize with you and respect your opinion, but disagree with it. Hopefully you will be able to get past it and enjoy a very nice army.

 

In the past few months though, I have learned a few things. People are ALWAYS going to dislike something. People dislike the new models. I can't see why!! They are great!! People dislike the new codex. I can see why, but I don't interpret it that way. (in my opinion, the old dex made the Grey Knights boring as :))

 

Hope you guys have a fun!

 

Daniel

Thats why we hate him for the codex and his earlier codices. Nobody get the amount of flak he received, nobody. Nobody destroyed so much fluff in so little time.

[Iron Lord]

Let's make one thing very clear shall we: He was sucked into the warp! No matter how good a mortal living in the physical world is, they cannot survive in the warp. It would be like you teleporting someone into an anti-matter universe and claiming they'd be entirely fine.

Even if you were to physically put a pre corruption Magnus the Red, the most highly psychic primarch and one who understood the warp the most, actually into the Warhammer 40K version of hell, he would die in a split second.

 

Codex: Chaos Daemons has a rather different take on the warp- as a place which mortals can indeed enter without instantaneously dying. Although, there's still a lot of danger.

[SpecialIssue]

Let's make one thing very clear shall we: He was sucked into the warp! No matter how good a mortal living in the physical world is, they cannot survive in the warp. It would be like you teleporting someone into an anti-matter universe and claiming they'd be entirely fine.

Even if you were to physically put a pre corruption Magnus the Red, the most highly psychic primarch and one who understood the warp the most, actually into the Warhammer 40K version of hell, he would die in a split second.

 

Codex: Chaos Daemons has a rather different take on the warp- as a place which mortals can indeed enter without instantaneously dying. Although, there's still a lot of danger.

 

No, no, no. The warp is immaterial. It has no matter, no energy, not even time. How can you perceive or interact with something outside the reference frame of time? It is utterly incomprehensible to a mortal mind.

 

Straight from Codex: Daemons, pg. 23: Psykers can send their minds into the Warp, for example, while Navigators of the Imperium have a third eye that allows them to observe the Immaterium from their ships. Even with these supernatural senses, it is impossible to truly see the warp... Filtered through even the extra sense of a psychic being, the Warp is an analogue created by mortal minds to comprehend the incomprehensible..."

 

There are no territories or beasts or landscapes in the warp. The gardens of Nurgle do not exist. It is literally all in the mind, an projected metaphor that mortals desperately conjure and cling to, bringing some sort of sanity and order to, you guessed it, pure Chaos and Immaterium.

 

To be cast bodily into the Warp means oblivion. To start you wouldn't have a body, for there are no dimensions or time (4D) to give it one. You don't have a brain, so there are no neurons firing in this reality or the one you left behind to give thought or consciousness. Without these, you are reduced to a 'soul' - which in 40k terms is the mere after-echo of the feelings of the entire life of your consciousness.

 

Kaldor Draigo cannot possibly be alive in the Warp, nor can he interact with chaos in the way described. Whatever is left of him is literally inside the swirling maw of gods, not traipsing around their 'palaces' and whatnot, for these do not even exist. The gods and their 'territories' are synonymous, and don't even exist in the way we know it. The only way Mr. Draigo could survive in the Warp, interact with it, perceive it, is if he became a part of it - that is, a Daemon.

 

You know what we do with Daemons? Purge them.

 

EDIT: wall of text, no more.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can be physical inside the Warp.

 

Starships (and thier occupants) do it all the time. :) They have Geller fileds to protection form being consumed by Chaos.

 

What this fluff says is literally Draigo is a strong as a Gellar field, able to keep his physical form safe from destruction by the Warp itself.

[SpecialIssue]

I'm not sure if that was a jab or not - are you suggesting that Mr. Drago's power level is so high, that he can project his own Gellar field spontaneously? :)

[Iron Lord]

There are no territories or beasts or landscapes in the warp. The gardens of Nurgle do not exist. It is literally all in the mind, an projected metaphor that mortals desperately conjure and cling to, bringing some sort of sanity and order to, you guessed it, pure Chaos and Immaterium.

 

To be cast bodily into the Warp means oblivion. To start you wouldn't have a body, for there are no dimensions or time (4D) to give it one. You don't have a brain, so there are no neurons firing in this reality or the one you left behind to give thought or consciousness. Without these, you are reduced to a 'soul' - which in 40k terms is the mere after-echo of the feelings of the entire life of your consciousness.

 

Kaldor Draigo cannot possibly be alive in the Warp, nor can he interact with chaos in the way described.

 

The regions under the control of each deity still exist- even if only mortals might "see" them as they are described

(in visions, or if they were to actually visit).

 

As well as the "formless wastes" and the "forge" where Soul Grinders are constructed.

 

A great Chaos Champion of Khorne might enter the warp- go to the Juggernaut pens, harness a Juggernaut, and leave- without dying.

 

Come to think of it- what happens when Terminators are teleported? They pass through the warp- for a very short time.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The new fluff almost stopped me from doung grey Knights again, after the time and effort I put into them with the release of the last codex. The flavour, the drama, the sense of a brave few standing up against the very worst Humanity had to face and yet managing to triumpth despite massive loss (The excellent Grey Knights omnibus and the 1st war of Armageddon highlight this aspect). Now they are the uber noobs with portable "GOD MODE" buttons to press.

 

Ladies and gentleman I give you the Chuck Norris Knights!

 

However, I have chosen to work around it. I'll pretend the Dreadknights don't exist and the Terry pratchet Librarian monkey thing is a figment of my imagination. I pray to whatever Gods listen that matt doesn't get given Dark Angels.