Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Iron Lord]

I'll pretend the Dreadknights don't exist and the Terry pratchet Librarian monkey thing is a figment of my imagination.

 

The Jokaero vastly predate Mat's work- they were in the original Rogue Trader game.

 

As to the question of "can matter exist in the warp"

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Hulk

 

Asteroids, wrecked ships, etc appear to be able to survive the warp, accumulate, and be boarded by various factions, that use them as a crude means of transport.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I'll pretend the Dreadknights don't exist and the Terry pratchet Librarian monkey thing is a figment of my imagination.

 

The Jokaero vastly predate Mat's work- they were in the original Rogue Trader game.

 

As to the question of "can matter exist in the warp"

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Hulk

 

Asteroids, wrecked ships, etc appear to be able to survive the warp, accumulate, and be boarded by various factions, that use them as a crude means of transport.

 

It's not the Jokaero I object to, it's the bloody stupid Terry pratchet model i can't stand. It's the fricking Librarian with a lascannon ring. It's just stupid. The fluff on the Jokaero is long standing and interesting but have been made a joke by the silly model.

[Iron Lord]

Just how many ways are there, to model something that has always been described as at least resembling an orang?

[Whitefireinferno]

It's not the Jokaero I object to, it's the bloody stupid Terry pratchet model i can't stand. It's the fricking Librarian with a lascannon ring. It's just stupid. The fluff on the Jokaero is long standing and interesting but have been made a joke by the silly model.

Uh what Libby with a Las cannon ring?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Just how many ways are there, to model something that has always been described as at least resembling an orang?

 

The key word is "resembling" all they did is create an orang and some techy stuff and there you go. No damned imagination. If you like it iron lord, fair play to you, but i hate it and merely stating that opinion.

[Iron Lord]

Uh what Libby with a Las cannon ring?

 

 

Link here:

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Jokaero_Weaponsmith.jpg

[Gentlemanloser]

are you suggesting that Mr. Drago's power level is so high, that he can project his own Gellar field spontaneously?

 

He's OVER 9000!!!!

 

:D

[Skirnir Ragefang]

Judging by this thread, i will have to white out most of the fluff and write my own or simply glue the pages from the previous dex over it. Draigo will become Captain Aurelian, since he is the only GK Character i'm going to use, but i am shooting more for a Inquisition army with Grey Knights support, than pure Grey Knights anyway.

[Eddie Orlock]

are you suggesting that Mr. Drago's power level is so high, that he can project his own Gellar field spontaneously?

He's OVER 9000!!!!

 

;)

... and here I was going to post that.

[Codicier Lucion]

Ladies and gentleman I give you the Chuck Norris Knights!

 

http://1d4chan.org/images/1/11/CN_WIP.png

 

It's not the Jokaero I object to, it's the bloody stupid Terry pratchet model i can't stand. It's the fricking Librarian with a lascannon ring. It's just stupid. The fluff on the Jokaero is long standing and interesting but have been made a joke by the silly model.

 

I thought it reminded me of something.

 

Well, a few people i've spoken to say they're going to be using Karman models from a game called AT-43 as opposed to the ones made by Games Workshop. Mostly because they at least look vaguely like something which the Imperium might have working for them.

 

The regions under the control of each deity still exist- even if only mortals might "see" them as they are described

(in visions, or if they were to actually visit).

 

As well as the "formless wastes" and the "forge" where Soul Grinders are constructed.

 

A great Chaos Champion of Khorne might enter the warp- go to the Juggernaut pens, harness a Juggernaut, and leave- without dying.

 

Come to think of it- what happens when Terminators are teleported? They pass through the warp- for a very short time.

 

Visions and seeing such places in dreams are slightly different as mortals are not actually there. They can look into them occasionally in some very rare cases, in the same way psychers can peer into the warp, but they can't just walk calmly through a rift into the warp and come out the other side just fine.

 

The first two examples relate to people heavily infused with Chaos and likely take place in, or are reached through, the Eye of Terror. A place where the warp begins and the laws of logic and physics take a back seat. As they've probably also got on the good side of at least one chaos god they're likely to be protected from things like having their minds shattered and heads explode the second they enter it.

Either that or they've been specifically made to allow mortals to exist inside them, can only be reached through possessed marines, etc etc.

 

As for Imperial teleporters, the reason they turn up alive might just have something to do with the technology which allows them to travel through the warp briefly. In the same way technology might just be involved with allowing Imperial ships to travel through the warp without reappearing as space hulks.

 

What Matt seems to be suggesting is that every single last part of the Warp, including the back yard of a chaos god, is entirely accessable by mortals and no problems will be suffered by them entering it. Either that or Draigo is apparently so 'awesome' that he can casually ignore the logical and canon problems which come with him strolling around the warp beating the snot out of primarch daemon princes.

[AoC]

Ward said they are pure enough to travel in warp with no bad effects (without gellar fields), long story short he made them 'awesome' (mary sue).

[Dark Disciple]

I've been thinking about Draigo, if he's trapped in a small pocket of the warp and the warp is affected by the thoughts of Mortals.

What is to say that Draigo did not in fact create his own little reality in which he was the Hero who carved his name in a Primach's heart or burned down nurgle's garden.

Heck, Draigo could be trapped in Tzeentch's Tv for all we know with the Changling letting him out every now and again to create some havoc.

Its the warp so perhaps we'll never know. . . or it could all be like Calgar killing M'Kar that one time :)

 

Disciple

[Notanoob]

Yeah, if Draigo had spent, say a year fighting a specific set of highly powerful demons from each god to attack Draigo as M'kar's curse, then he came out via a warpgate alive (perhaps amusingly being summoned accidentally instead of a demon by a Chaos cult), I might be able to stomach it. Tau can go through the warp because they have such a small presence in the Warp and they only make small jumps. That's okay. Warpspiders spend maybe a second inside of the Warp, and Terminators spend a similarly short period of time going through the warp. But all the time that Draigo has spent? He should be dead or insane by now, it's just too long a time.

[AoC]

Yeah, if Draigo had spent, say a year fighting a specific set of highly powerful demons from each god to attack Draigo as M'kar's curse, then he came out via a warpgate alive (perhaps amusingly being summoned accidentally instead of a demon by a Chaos cult), I might be able to stomach it. Tau can go through the warp because they have such a small presence in the Warp and they only make small jumps. That's okay. Warpspiders spend maybe a second inside of the Warp, and Terminators spend a similarly short period of time going through the warp. But all the time that Draigo has spent? He should be dead or insane by now, it's just too long a time.

My reasoning is that he is now deluded servant of tzeentch. Look at his stats, EW, great psyker, live in warp, wield daemonsword, destroyed part of garden which belong to tzeentch archenemy, T5 4W 4A 10 LD. Sound awfully like daemon prince without daemonic stature

[Iron Lord]

His weapon isn't referred to as a daemonsword anywhere. It does mention he fixed it using the (purified) metal from a slain Bloodtthirster's axe though.

 

And he's not the only Str 5 marine, or the only Eternal Warrior. Arjac Rockfist is also Str 5, Lysander is also Eternal Warrior.

 

M'Kar's curse might actually be part of the reason he can survive. "If you return to this world you, and all who follow you, will walk with damnation for 10,000 years".

 

So- he returned alone- fought M'Kar, got thrown into the warp rift, and now must "walk with damnation for 10,000 years"- that is, walk the warp, battling daemons.

 

He fought servants of all four powers- and smashed a Tzeentchian castle with M'kachen in it- so there isn't really a focus on any one of them.

[Son of Rawl]

Want I want to know is how Draigo is Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, dude is trapped in the Warp you would think they would have made another Supreme Grand Master by now...

 

Wonder when we will see M'Kar in game, guy has become the stereotypical bitch slapping post for every major Space Marine hero. Oh God does that mean the Chaos Dex is Wards next project?!!

[AoC]

His weapon isn't referred to as a daemonsword anywhere. It does mention he fixed it using the (purified) metal from a slain Bloodtthirster's axe though.

 

And he's not the only Str 5 marine, or the only Eternal Warrior. Arjac Rockfist is also Str 5, Lysander is also Eternal Warrior.

 

M'Kar's curse might actually be part of the reason he can survive. "If you return to this world you, and all who follow you, will walk with damnation for 10,000 years".

 

So- he returned alone- fought M'Kar, got thrown into the warp rift, and now must "walk with damnation for 10,000 years"- that is, walk the warp, battling daemons.

 

He fought servants of all four powers- and smashed a Tzeentchian castle with M'kachen in it- so there isn't really a focus on any one of them.

The axe is bound bloodthrister.

 

He is only with both 5T and EW, like daemons.

 

It was all planed by Tzeentch.

[Iron Lord]

Want I want to know is how Draigo is Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, dude is trapped in the Warp you would think they would have made another Supreme Grand Master by now...

 

Maybe it's like with the Sororitas not electing a new Abbess after the last one disappeared- until her fate has been determined.

 

Since it was 999.M41 that he went to that planet- and got cast into the warp- it's pretty recent.

[SpecialIssue]

In my mind, it is still impossible to travel through or even exist in the warp without bringing some reality with you.

 

Space Hulks - ok, lets assume that matter can somehow survive in the warp without Gellar fields. Still, how the hell are all those stowaways on board (marines, orks, tyranids, etc) gonna survive the daemons eating their minds? No gellar field to protects them...

We know the hulks have power and intermittently functioning warp drives (how do they jump into the warp then?), so it is safe to assume that they must also have gellar fields operational as they jump... otherwise none could use them as transport...

 

Terminators: I admit, I don't have any official fluff to back this up, but I would think that the massive machinery used in the teleportation have something to do with creating a field to pass through another dimension safely...

 

Chaos foundries etc - those that see these are Chaos champions, as said. However, they have the patronage of the warp itself - the dark gods might be able to grant them some semblance of daemonhood/wrought them into pure emotion. In addition, some of these people are totally insane - they have given their minds and souls totally to pure emotion, and are thus able to perceive the warp because they are already insane.

 

Mr. Draigo is none of these, nor should he (or anyone) have the POWA level to generate his own gellar field and survive in the warp.

 

I don't like to see the trivialization of the warp like this. It isn't some clichéd cheap ripoff of a 'dark magic' land like Mordor or Oblivion where you can 'walk in' and see the laws of physics still applied. It is absolute chaos - no form, no structure, no boundaries, no end - otherwise it wouldn't be chaos. You are stepping out of our universe, into madness made unreal.

 

Edit: I really like my blocks of text

[Iron Lord]

Mr. Draigo is none of these, nor should he (or anyone) have the POWA level to generate his own gellar field and survive in the warp.

 

I don't like to see the trivialization of the warp like this. It isn't some clichéd cheap ripoff of a 'dark magic' land like Mordor or Oblivion where you can 'walk in' and see the laws of physics still applied. It is absolute chaos - no form, no structure, no boundaries, no end - otherwise it wouldn't be chaos. You are stepping out of our universe, into madness made unreal.

 

In Bloodquest book 2- the blood angel exiles have their ship break up around them while they're in the warp- yet they survive to land on the daemonworld.

 

As to "stepping out of our universe"- maybe Ward has played too much D&D and is using the Outer Planes as an inspiration. It's possible for someone tough enough, with enough magical or psychic protection, to survive Outer Planes like Limbo (or if their Will save is high enough, the madness-inducing Far Realm.

[gil galed]

Having now thoroughly read my codex I have concluded that it is perhaps the worst codex ever. Ah well... i'll just have to make do with all the really pretty pictures.

 

~Gil :cuss

[A D-B]

I'll just wait for AD-B to hopefully fix it. Doesn't mean that I won't still play the GK's just like I've wanted to since the first time I was introduced to them though.

 

Man, this thread took, like, nine years to read. I appreciate the vote of confidence, Inache. For the record, no Codex: Grey Knights characters will be showing up in The Emperor's Gift. It's set in 438.M41, just after the Ravenor series ends.

 

Something that I do find interesting in the C:GK changes is the notion of psychic powers and sorcery being refined into something better explained for pretty much the first time.

 

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through a veil of sorcery or science."

 

The idea of all psychic powers (no matter what you call them) being essentially the same thing isn't a new one; I've heard it spoken by IP folks and Games Dev guys many times, and I wonder if it's just something that's never really translated all that well into codices before. So now, when it's explained clearly, it seems a sudden surprise and a massive conflict, when really it's just that the Grey Knights know enough about the warp to realise that whether you call it Psychic Powers or Sorcery, it's still the same thing. So they don't bother with differentiating it along artificial lines. In the 40K setting, the sixth sense is a corrupt power at its very core, but depending on how you wield it will make a lot of difference.

 

There's a lot to chew over in the new codex; a lot of changes, retcons and previously unseen clarity. I don't say it because I think they're all terrible changes or anything, but I sympathise with any Grey Knight player trying to get their head 'round the new 'dex, because writing a novel about the sons of Titan isn't any easier. Practically every time I'm revealing a deeper slice of the Chapter's traditions, actions or rituals, it's a case of asking "Does this contradict new information? Does it sound right, given X, Y and Z? Is this going to be annihilated by the next Grey Knight codex in XX years, if they retcon stuff that seems clearly unpopular?"

 

And so on. Bit of a minefield.

[Iron Lord]

Something that I do find interesting in the C:GK changes is the notion of psychic powers and sorcery being refined into something better explained for pretty much the first time.

 

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through a veil of sorcery or science."

 

The idea of all psychic powers (no matter what you call them) being essentially the same thing isn't a new one; I've heard it spoken by IP folks and Games Dev guys many times, and I wonder if it's just something that's never really translated all that well into codices before. So now, when it's explained clearly, it seems a sudden surprise and a massive conflict, when really it's just that the Grey Knights know enough about the warp to realise that whether you call it Psychic Powers or Sorcery, it's still the same thing. So they don't bother with differentiating it along artificial lines. In the 40K setting, the sixth sense is a corrupt power at its very core, but depending on how you wield it will make a lot of difference.

 

This. I think that's where a lot of the dislike comes from- the use of the word "sorcery" (which is mechanically different in the Dark Heresy game) for the various powers the Grey Knights use.

[Son of Rawl]

Been putting this off but here is a what I like and what I don't like about the new fluff.

 

What I like:

1: The Founding: I like that the Grey Knights were the Emperor's 'Oh S**t' plan and having this expanded on, I can buy the hiding Titan in the warp and behind illusions as by the impression of it the Fortress on Titan was made quite awhile ago, possibly before the Crusade itself started. Who knows what the Emperor could do at the height of his power.

 

2: Crowe:May get flamed for this but I like the story behind Crowe, being the custodian of one of the most corrupting Daemon swords ever found and not using it's powers is an interesting idea. Shame it was not worked more as it just seems half done

 

3: Terminus Decree: This sounds pretty interesting

 

What I don't like:

1: Draigo: Great rules but fluff wise I think that has been covered in this thread by about 8 or more pages...

 

2: ROFL Stomping Mortarion: Have to bring this up, this pretty much destroys everything we have been told on how powerful Primarchs are and especaily Daemon Primarchs. It took 100 of the best Grey Knights to stop Angron and his Bloodthirster Bodyguard but Draigo can somehow repeat the same feat by himself and then carve a name into his heart. At that point I thought 'If he can hold him down to do that then why not use one of those prisons they have...'

 

3: The Lol wat? Moments: Contradictions are rife in this codex, main one that is pointed out is the Grey Knights are incorruptable and none have fallen to chaos, and that goes double for Purifiers but then why do they need to kill Sisters of Battle for there blood to stop being corrupted? If everything was explained more as to why they felt even they could not stop being corrupted then great but one little blurb is not enough to justify that act.

 

4: Grey Knights are the go to army: When the inquistion has a huge problem they are facing they go to the Grey Knights regardless of the enemy...what about the Deathwatch? that's the recognised arm of the Ordo Xenos, I'm all for having Grey Knights more active but that does not sit right.

 

Overal I am impressed with the GK's rules but the fluff which most of us go by when choosing are armies just seems half thought out and incomplete, a few more revisions and maybe having it reviewed by someone who can go 'Whoa wait seriously?' may have brought this codex into line but I guess Ward can do what he likes...

[Iron Lord]

3: The Lol wat? Moments: Contradictions are rife in this codex, main one that is pointed out is the Grey Knights are incorruptable and none have fallen to chaos, and that goes double for Purifiers but then why do they need to kill Sisters of Battle for there blood to stop being corrupted? If everything was explained more as to why they felt even they could not stop being corrupted then great but one little blurb is not enough to justify that act.

 

Just because a Grey Knight has never turned to serve those we was created to fight, doesn't mean that Chaos magic can't work on him.

 

In this case it might be that the Bloodtide would have "clouded the minds" of the Grey Knights, preventing them from accomplishing the mission.

 

The Grey Knights being the Inquisition's chamber militant in general is a bit of a change though. Maybe the Deathwatch are slated to become a faction of their own, that while sometimes working with the Ordo Xenos, aren't as easily called on as the Grey Knights? Since they're all scattered across the galaxy in small amounts.