Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Son of Rawl]

3: The Lol wat? Moments: Contradictions are rife in this codex, main one that is pointed out is the Grey Knights are incorruptable and none have fallen to chaos, and that goes double for Purifiers but then why do they need to kill Sisters of Battle for there blood to stop being corrupted? If everything was explained more as to why they felt even they could not stop being corrupted then great but one little blurb is not enough to justify that act.

 

Just because a Grey Knight has never turned to serve those we was created to fight, doesn't mean that Chaos magic can't work on him.

 

In this case it might be that the Bloodtide would have "clouded the minds" of the Grey Knights, preventing them from accomplishing the mission.

 

And thats why it needed more than just a blurb

[Iron Lord]

In the latest White Dwarf, we see the Changling's illusions cause the Grey Knights to shoot their own men.

 

If that "turn target to Chaos spawn" power had been used (maybe by a CSM army) again, by the rules, it could have worked.

 

So when I read of Grey Knights being incorruptible- I think of it as being primarily "in loyalty"- magic can still fool them, Chaos energies can still warp them.

 

So- they take precautions wherever they can, whenever they think such precautions are needed.

[sonofblood]

I think the codex is acctually trying to do away with "being incorruptible" and more with "being incredibly resistant" with the Purifiers being the only ones that are truly "incorruptable". I also think that they are trying to make the Grey Knights a more direct force that is active all over the place(say like the U.S. Army?) with the Deathwatch taking a role as a sort of Special Forces, called in to the do the "Behind the lines" work in small squads, even the FFG Rites of Battle has a class called "Kill-Marine" which is essentially a Delta Force operative(Don't quote me on that, but that is how I'm viewing this whole thing) compared to a whole strikeforce. Which is why the Deathwatch will most likely never have a real army book or unit in a codex.

[veidin]

Next summer...from the mind of director Michael Bay and Mat Ward.

 

Charlie Sheen as Supreme Grand Master Draigo

 

and introducing Richard Simmons as Mortarion

 

Transformers 4 Return of the Silver Marines.

 

WINNING!

[Iron Man I]

It took 100 of the best Grey Knights to stop Angron and his Bloodthirster Bodyguard but Draigo can somehow repeat the same feat by himself and then carve a name into his heart.

 

Its not a name. It was a tattoo that read "Crimson". Draigo has a matching one that says "Clover" :)

[Lord Tharand]

3: The Lol wat? Moments: Contradictions are rife in this codex, main one that is pointed out is the Grey Knights are incorruptable and none have fallen to chaos, and that goes double for Purifiers but then why do they need to kill Sisters of Battle for there blood to stop being corrupted? If everything was explained more as to why they felt even they could not stop being corrupted then great but one little blurb is not enough to justify that act.

 

Just because a Grey Knight has never turned to serve those we was created to fight, doesn't mean that Chaos magic can't work on him.

 

In this case it might be that the Bloodtide would have "clouded the minds" of the Grey Knights, preventing them from accomplishing the mission.

 

And thats why it needed more than just a blurb

 

In the quote from Mat Ward (WD375) about killing the sisters they needed the blood to enact the banishment ritual not to keep them from being corrupted.

 

Also, Ben Counter (Victories of the Space Marines) has some pretty interesting things to say about how Grey Knight gear is created and annointed by the Inquisition.

 

***Edit to make sense***

[Iron Lord]

I think the codex is acctually trying to do away with "being incorruptible" and more with "being incredibly resistant" with the Purifiers being the only ones that are truly "incorruptable".

 

This sounds about right. It also says anyone other than Draigo, exposed to the warp that much, would have gone insane- so maybe the Purifiers, while physically immune to the Chaos corruption effects- might still be capable of being driven mad.

 

I figure the daemon's curse, to "walk with damnation for 10,000 years" might be at least a part of why he's not dying.

 

In the quote from Mat Ward (WD375) about killing the sisters they needed the blood to enact the banishment ritual to keep them from being corrupted.

 

"If slaying their Sister of Battle allies will give them the pure blood needed to enact the banishment ritual, a Justicar may well order it".

 

But in the codex, it's phrased more to imply that the blood protects them, enabling them to wade through the Bloodtide safely.

 

That said- "it protecting them from the Bloodtide", interpretation, does still work with "enable them them to enact the ritual"- because they can't enact the ritual if they can't pass through the Bloodtide.

 

Maybe it did double duty- it let them walk through safely, and then when the daemon was struck with the blades, the blood on the blades was anathema to the daemon, and sent it back to the warp.

 

And why would they know to do it in the first place? Possibly through research- this particular daemon is known to have one vulnerability- innocent blood.

[Eddie Orlock]

Man, this thread took, like, nine years to read.

 

...

 

Something that I do find interesting in the C:GK changes is the notion of psychic powers and sorcery being refined into something better explained for pretty much the first time.

 

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through a veil of sorcery or science."

 

...

You're less daunted by long threads than I am. :)

 

Except, this isn't the first time it's been gone into. The nature of the warp has been a central part of the fluff for a very long time. They've previously expounded on the difference several times and in all the instances before this, it's pretty much been uniformly Psyonics = talent, Sorcery = trained skill. Yes, they're both ways of manipulating the same dark energies, but one's like an automatic transmission and the other's a standard. A standard transmission that'll turn your fingers into goo. This does tie into a question of 'how it's weilded', but maybe we're really looking at 'the intent with which it's weilded'. The latter would also fit nicely into the background, for the warp is a reflection of the material realm. The warp is largely defined by the minds of men, so, if in those there is a difference, then there will be a difference in the warp.

 

Perhaps that last line suggests that the powers of the warp are only corrupting because humanity thinks they are. Afterall, they were forbidden by the Emperor, and there was a legendary time in the far distance past when the warp was calm like a tranquil sea. Maybe the great trick pulled by the Grey Knights was one of propaganda and autohypnosis. If they could convince the great unwashed masses that they could use it safely and them selves of the same thing, then maybe if this belife was commonly and strongly enough held, they could.

[Marmande]

Man, this thread took, like, nine years to read. I appreciate the vote of confidence, Inache. For the record, no Codex: Grey Knights characters will be showing up in The Emperor's Gift. It's set in 438.M41, just after the Ravenor series ends.

 

Something that I do find interesting in the C:GK changes is the notion of psychic powers and sorcery being refined into something better explained for pretty much the first time.

 

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through a veil of sorcery or science."

 

The idea of all psychic powers (no matter what you call them) being essentially the same thing isn't a new one; I've heard it spoken by IP folks and Games Dev guys many times, and I wonder if it's just something that's never really translated all that well into codices before. So now, when it's explained clearly, it seems a sudden surprise and a massive conflict, when really it's just that the Grey Knights know enough about the warp to realise that whether you call it Psychic Powers or Sorcery, it's still the same thing. So they don't bother with differentiating it along artificial lines. In the 40K setting, the sixth sense is a corrupt power at its very core, but depending on how you wield it will make a lot of difference.

 

There's a lot to chew over in the new codex; a lot of changes, retcons and previously unseen clarity. I don't say it because I think they're all terrible changes or anything, but I sympathise with any Grey Knight player trying to get their head 'round the new 'dex, because writing a novel about the sons of Titan isn't any easier. Practically every time I'm revealing a deeper slice of the Chapter's traditions, actions or rituals, it's a case of asking "Does this contradict new information? Does it sound right, given X, Y and Z? Is this going to be annihilated by the next Grey Knight codex in XX years, if they retcon stuff that seems clearly unpopular?"

 

And so on. Bit of a minefield.

 

I just want to say that I really appreciate the fact that you've read through the thread to help contribute to your writing of a Grey Knights book. :) I'm curious to know if, after reading some posters' reactions to certain bits of fluff, whether you'll now avoid a certain topic or somesuch in the book? For example, are we going to see the main character ever strap himself into a Dreadknight to fight a Bloodthirster (and if so, will that involve re-describing it as to not come across as more like the exo-suit from, say, District 9 and less a robo-nanny with a built in baby harness :) ) or will you harken back to that idea of 'desperate heroism'/David vs. Goliath-ism that's come up a few times in this thread?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

After pouring over the codex and re-reading coverto cover, I've got over my initial bloodrage.

 

Mr Ward invokes a very strange love/hate emotion, he did it for me with the BA codex and does it with Grey Knights. Some things I really like, some are just horrible to me.

 

Likes:

 

The Chapter is better explained and organised now, the Brotherhoods are a good theme (if a somewhat confused command structure). A bit so-so on the Brotherhood Champion, seems too much like poaching the BT's theme. A full organisation is finaly in place and in canon with libbies, apothecaries and Techmarines.

 

I really dig the Paladin fluff (not so keen on them game-wise), I like the trials and the Grail Knight feel to them. Using them as elite bodyguards does actualy create an "elite within an elite" that works. Purifiers not so keen on, but i see how they work and how they fit into the Chapter, I kinda like the Crowe fluff with him wielding a daemon weapon but never actualy using it, relying on his own skill and strength of soul to fight.

 

The seperation from the Inquistion is clearer now (which was something i enjoyed in Ben Counter's novels) and the Grey Knights have a more independant feel, rather than being the Inquisitions chamber militant doing their dirty work, the Grey Knights have a more independant feel working in partnership with the Inquisition.

 

Dislikes:

 

The fluff suggests that Termies and PAGK squads are interchangeable with each Grey Knight basicly picking his path and periodicly switching. yet the Termies still have better stats (+1 attack, better leadership) which suggests they are a higher "rank" so to speak. It actualy made sense when Termies where a higher stage in the progression of a Grey Knight aswell.

 

The command structure is confusing. Brother-Captains command each Brotherhood but so do Grand Masters. effectively each Brotherhood seems to have two commanders. Admittedly Grand Masters have a broader range of responsibilities but the fluff suggests it is mostly ceremonial, this part of the fluff isn't well considered.

 

The new fluff is too pragmatic, it opens the Gey Knights to working alongside chaos rather than against it. Grey Knights fighting alongside Inquisitors wielding active daemon weapons and using daemonhosts? The ends justify the means approach should of been left inquisitorial, the Grey Knights have lost some of their image I think by becoming too pragmatic.

 

Draigo is a mistake, not so much in the background (he's effecively a Lysander clone) but in the fact he's lost to the warp for twn millenia, showing up from time to time yet he still holds his rank? It's rather silly.

 

The undying Justicar is another mistake, it takes the superhuman but still killable aspect and creates a pure chuck norris caricature. The martydom aspect of the grey Knights is one of their strongest themes, the fact that they will, sooner or later, fall unknown and unremembered save by their Brothers in service to the Imperium. Creating an Imperial Lucius was silly.

 

The Dreadknight is a huge mistake to my mind, the David v Goliath theme is aruably the strongest aspect of the Grey Knights, the Dreadknight cheapens it.

 

Incidently some have argued there are too many lone Knights killing primarchs and greater daemons. The fluff lists a great deal of "death blows" being delivered but i imagine these to be the ending moment of massive and epic battles (such as the Brotherhood v Angron moment).

[Validar]

An author simply taking his time reading old fluff, reflecting upon the general theme that he is working with, and actually listening to the community (!), will have a much easier time avoiding all the internet hate begin thrown about, because, quite frankly, it isn't that hard to tell.

 

I think this thread shows the point especially well, since GK are, well, a minefield: The players who played it pre-new codex played it mostly for the fluff (is my perception), so when you do major (and in some cases, extreeme out of concept) changes to that, there will be an uproar.

And, as have been proven in this very thread, the uproar is circling just about the same things.

 

Mortals vs. primarchs; Why bring it up? HH clearly shows how revered and incredibly charismatic/powerful the primarchs are. Why introduce anyone to the table top that can match them? People are attached to their armies, so having one undauntingly beat the other will bring uproars, no matter what.

Remember when Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ fought? They were a perfect match, none could defeat the other (they fought for weeks!), and Leman eventually sees the commical and starts laughing, which allows Lion El'Jonson to strike him down. The question wether one of them could actually beat the other in a fair fight was never brought up.

Why? It is a minefield, don't go there. Don't. Hands off.

 

Killing sisters?

What. The. Crap. This is compromise big time. This throws mud in the face of the pure knighty puritan knights that the grey Knights are, and basically brands them "compromising suckers". True as it may be, the GK are willing to do everything to defeat evil, but they would never compromise what they believe in.

When you're living with two such doctrines, there is bound to be a place of conflict, when your duty to defeat evil clashes against your principles. We always knew this. But why write something that takes you out on the minefield?

What happened is that you sprung the "compromising principles" bomb - you might aswell have written, that the GK chose not to do it, and as a result lost the planet (possibly sub system!) to the deamon hordes (that would be the second bomb). Neither of those makes anyone happy, least of all the GK players.

So why step onto that minefield?

 

 

We have accepted mystery as an integrated part of the Grey Knight history for many years now. The hidden, ancient rituals of a very old brotherhood of psykers bound by Duty and Faith. We accepted that not even we, the GK players, could know all the truths hidden beneath Titan, but could hold on to our own beliefs of the strange brotherhood.

Codex Deamonhunters held onto that. Even the GK omnibus is written in such a way that it follows the actions of a -very- small part of the brotherhood (and, for most part, only a single Grey Knight), thus leaving the whole Grey Knight organisation shrouded in the distant mystery that truly made them part of the Inquisition.

Now, GK players thought that was awesome. When you try to define in detail these things, -some- player's illusions will break. In this case it would seem to have hit a large part of the community.

In other words: It is a freaking minefield. Why the hell would you go there? Why would you write stories that in detail explains how the GK is like this and not like that?

Consider that much of the fluff in the old book was specific, giving a portrait of only a tiny fraction of the Malleus and thus allowed you to fill out the rest: The speach of Marchant, the story of Inquisitor Quixos, Et Templars Mysertia aux Ordo Malleus (!!!), the story of brother-Captain Ignatius (whose life isn't even explained further than that ½ a page!), and the special characters, who werent allmighty leaders of anything, but revered and powerful individuals within their fractions (Stern wasn't even a grandmaster!).

 

Stick to the old, stay out of the minefields. I think that is where the old codex had GREAT succes (is what appealed to me, if nothing else) and the new codex would seem to have severe problems.

[Codicier Lucion]

Mr. Draigo is none of these, nor should he (or anyone) have the POWA level to generate his own gellar field and survive in the warp.

 

I don't like to see the trivialization of the warp like this. It isn't some clichéd cheap ripoff of a 'dark magic' land like Mordor or Oblivion where you can 'walk in' and see the laws of physics still applied. It is absolute chaos - no form, no structure, no boundaries, no end - otherwise it wouldn't be chaos. You are stepping out of our universe, into madness made unreal.

 

In Bloodquest book 2- the blood angel exiles have their ship break up around them while they're in the warp- yet they survive to land on the daemonworld.

 

As to "stepping out of our universe"- maybe Ward has played too much D&D and is using the Outer Planes as an inspiration. It's possible for someone tough enough, with enough magical or psychic protection, to survive Outer Planes like Limbo (or if their Will save is high enough, the madness-inducing Far Realm.

 

Yeah, in Bloodquest the fact they were being manipulated by a powerful Tzeench daemon to serve its own ends probably had something to do with their survival. After all, it needed its pawns to survive long enough for them to be of proper use.

 

They were also in the Eye of Terror at this time to my knowledge; so the screwed up physics of that part of the universe probably helped.

[AlexHolker]

"If slaying their Sister of Battle allies will give them the pure blood needed to enact the banishment ritual, a Justicar may well order it".

You heard it here, folks: a Bloodthirster's only weakness... is blood. :lol:

[Brother Captain Kezef]

"If slaying their Sister of Battle allies will give them the pure blood needed to enact the banishment ritual, a Justicar may well order it".

You heard it here, folks: a Bloodthirster's only weakness... is blood. :lol:

 

It's like an alcoholic, throw a bottle of jack at 'em and they fall at your feet.

[SpecialIssue]

I think it comes down to whether you characterise the Grey Knights as either:

 

Quiet, humble, secretive, noble, uncompromising on purity

Or

Bombastic, glorious, ruthless, uncompromising on victory

 

Do you prefer the Grey Knights resisting the Warp simply through their own titanic willpower, or through fulfilling certain 'blessed' conditions that definitively protect them from corruption i.e. sorcery, rituals, wargear, psyker protection?

 

Do you prefer the Grey Knights as facing impossible odds routinely, or having the equipment and ability that allows them to reliably take on the foe and come out victorious?

 

I think you can guess what I prefer...

 

As for psychic vs. sorcery: I always have viewed the two as distinct. Psychic powers come inherently from being a psyker - you look at an object, and you simply will it into floating -inherent power. Sorcery, on the other hand, relies on knowledge and fulfilling specific conditions i.e. rituals, and thus collusion and cooperation with the sentient warp itself. One is drawing on and borrowing powers greater than yourself, the other using the tiny "pinprick" of your own psychic presence in the warp (Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg. 39, great description of psykers in the warp).

[HunterEste]

I think the codex is acctually trying to do away with "being incorruptible" and more with "being incredibly resistant" with the Purifiers being the only ones that are truly "incorruptable".

 

This sounds about right. It also says anyone other than Draigo, exposed to the warp that much, would have gone insane- so maybe the Purifiers, while physically immune to the Chaos corruption effects- might still be capable of being driven mad.

 

I figure the daemon's curse, to "walk with damnation for 10,000 years" might be at least a part of why he's not dying.

 

In the quote from Mat Ward (WD375) about killing the sisters they needed the blood to enact the banishment ritual to keep them from being corrupted.

 

"If slaying their Sister of Battle allies will give them the pure blood needed to enact the banishment ritual, a Justicar may well order it".

 

But in the codex, it's phrased more to imply that the blood protects them, enabling them to wade through the Bloodtide safely.

 

That said- "it protecting them from the Bloodtide", interpretation, does still work with "enable them them to enact the ritual"- because they can't enact the ritual if they can't pass through the Bloodtide.

 

Maybe it did double duty- it let them walk through safely, and then when the daemon was struck with the blades, the blood on the blades was anathema to the daemon, and sent it back to the warp.

 

And why would they know to do it in the first place? Possibly through research- this particular daemon is known to have one vulnerability- innocent blood.

 

More likely, Wardyboy realized his original description of the GK murdering the Sisters may have been taken poorly by long-time GK fans, and had to pull a CYA by adding a blurb about completing rituals or some nonsense.

[A D-B]

Except, this isn't the first time it's been gone into. The nature of the warp has been a central part of the fluff for a very long time. They've previously expounded on the difference several times and in all the instances before this, it's pretty much been uniformly Psyonics = talent, Sorcery = trained skill. Yes, they're both ways of manipulating the same dark energies, but one's like an automatic transmission and the other's a standard. A standard transmission that'll turn your fingers into goo. This does tie into a question of 'how it's weilded', but maybe we're really looking at 'the intent with which it's weilded'. The latter would also fit nicely into the background, for the warp is a reflection of the material realm. The warp is largely defined by the minds of men, so, if in those there is a difference, then there will be a difference in the warp.

 

Naw, I know. But this is the first time it's been laid out in these terms, and like I said, it's something I've been hearing from Games Dev folks and IP peeps behind the scenes for a while, when the topic has come up in meetings (or I've asked, etc.) so it's not exactly new. So you've got to wonder how much of the past has been poor explanation or fan speculation; how much was just assumed by the fandom (like a lot of Lexicanum) and just "became truth" because so many people reinforced it over time (which we've seen with countless 'facts'); and how much is a legitimate retcon or a final, explicit statement of truth that was supposed to be illuminating, rather than met with hostility.

 

I have no freaking idea, myself. But it's an interesting clash.

 

I just want to say that I really appreciate the fact that you've read through the thread to help contribute to your writing of a Grey Knights book. :( I'm curious to know if, after reading some posters' reactions to certain bits of fluff, whether you'll now avoid a certain topic or somesuch in the book? For example, are we going to see the main character ever strap himself into a Dreadknight to fight a Bloodthirster (and if so, will that involve re-describing it as to not come across as more like the exo-suit from, say, District 9 and less a robo-nanny with a built in baby harness ;) ) or will you harken back to that idea of 'desperate heroism'/David vs. Goliath-ism that's come up a few times in this thread?

 

Well, the novel was planned out a while back, and while there're always changes (often huge ones...) in the writing process, I tend to keep my own vision fairly undiluted and just hope people like it. That's not to say I don't pay attention to forums, but I'm ultimately hired to write what I want to write, and trusted to do it well. Luckily, my feedback for my first four novels has been pretty reassuring when it comes to keeping to popular perceptions of canon.

 

I have the new codex, natch. I like a lot of the stuff in it, and I'm trying to include a lot of it - excepting special characters, and so on. But, at a push, if I had to say which tone the novel takes, it's the "quiet, humble, secretive, noble, uncompromising on purity" slant, rather than the "bombastic, glorious, ruthless, uncompromising on victory" angle.

 

And this was an actual, word-for-word conversation with my editor, in discussion over the novel's climax:

 

NICK KYME: "Maybe this could be a place to show a Dreadknight?"

 

ME: "That really won't be happening."

[Daedalus Templarius]

Ward really makes me sad with his writing when I look back at the excellent lore/fluff in the DH codex written by Andy, Phil, and Graham :D

 

Some of it is alright in the new codex, but some of it just makes me /facepalm

 

ADB doing a GK novel? Sign me up!

[Marmande]

Well, the novel was planned out a while back, and while there're always changes (often huge ones...) in the writing process, I tend to keep my own vision fairly undiluted and just hope people like it. That's not to say I don't pay attention to forums, but I'm ultimately hired to write what I want to write, and trusted to do it well. Luckily, my feedback for my first four novels has been pretty reassuring when it comes to keeping to popular perceptions of canon.

 

True enough, better that you stick to your guns than try and please everyone in what is normally a community of amorphous and varied opinions.

 

I have the new codex, natch. I like a lot of the stuff in it, and I'm trying to include a lot of it - excepting special characters, and so on. But, at a push, if I had to say which tone the novel takes, it's the "quiet, humble, secretive, noble, uncompromising on purity" slant, rather than the "bombastic, glorious, ruthless, uncompromising on victory" angle.

 

Works for me; I'm sure you'll save a lot of the latter for the World Eaters, perhaps? :P

 

And this was an actual, word-for-word conversation with my editor, in discussion over the novel's climax:

 

NICK KYME: "Maybe this could be a place to show a Dreadknight?"

 

ME: "That really won't be happening."

 

Novel purchase guaranteed then. :D

[Commissar Joe]

And this was an actual, word-for-word conversation with my editor, in discussion over the novel's climax:

 

NICK KYME: "Maybe this could be a place to show a Dreadknight?"

 

ME: "That really won't be happening."

 

Thank the God-Emperor for that.

[Sothalor]

There are some more fluff bits that I'm curious about. This is predominantly because of the format: it's a codex that's just there to introduce the army. There are lots of single passages and throwaway lines, but nonetheless they bug me.

 

1. Take Paladins for instance. A Grey Knight has to complete eight quests before they can join the order. When/how do they find the time to do so? Is it something that they get to do in their spare time between missions? Do they need to seek clearance from their superiors before they start the quests? Presumably there's some rule or system in place to keep whole brotherhoods from going AWOL pursuing the quests.

 

2. Or Purifiers. It says they recruit only those "whose souls are considered to be utterly incorruptible and resistant to the temptations of the Warp" - from a chapter which has the sole distinction of never having a battle-brother turn to Chaos. How do they judge one person as more incorruptible than another?

 

3. The Terminus Decree. A little box that may be the doomsday device of the Imperium - it could either bring it crashing down or delivering it when everything is lost. I think it's a nifty concept, myself. Only, it states that only the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights knows how to open the box. All right, makes sense that it's a tightly guarded secret. Two problems evident just from the codex, however: first, the one example of the position of Supreme Grand Master being transferred that we have is a posthumous hand-off, and there's no reason to assume this isn't the norm. Seriously, how many Chapter Masters or Supreme Grand Masters retire peacefully? How does a Supreme Grand Master who's been elevated to that position because the previous one got killed by a Greater Daemon find out about the Terminus Decree? Presumably there must be some record or instruction - like a will or legacy that gets revealed to a newly appointed Supreme Grand Master. Second, the current Supreme Grand Master is lost in the Warp, which leads me to...

 

4. Draigo and his position/title. Let's leave aside all his other background for a moment. How does Draigo's loss affect the Grey Knights as a chapter? Is there an acting Supreme Grand Master who's assumed his responsibilities? Do the eight Grand Masters of the Brotherhoods make decisions in his absence? Is the Chapter as a whole aware of his fate? It's clear that he encounters other Grey Knights when he manages to get out of the Warp for however long. Is there some effort being made by the Chapter to recover him, or do they view him like Mordrak's Ghost Knights: a spirit of the dead who still has something to finish?

 

What do you guys think? Is there anything else in the codex that makes you wonder?

[Oiad]

No.3 & 4 have given me quite a bit to think about too. The easy stuff first - I believe we were meant to consider Draigo as a pre-warpwalker with his current ruleset - just as we would when using Saint Celestine or Captain Tycho in pre-death mode. After all, there is no mention of his sword only being called the Titansword after he reforges it so it works.

 

When considering how the Grey Knights react to his 'disappearance' there are clues in his story. His reappearance on Jostero suggested to me that as a personality he has been all but forgotten about and has passed into chapter myth. The Grey Knights in that battle treat him only as a fellow 'brother' (as opposed to their leader?) and are seemingly too young to recollect of him. Perhaps in realising the amount of time that has passed by he wanted to keep it that way - who knows.

 

Since his second battle with M'Kar on Acralem I'd like to believe the Grey Knights would do what any organisation would do if their leader was trapped/lost. No - not construct an elaborate Hollywood-style rescue plan where they'd break in, kill all the antagonists and break him out successfully. Simply they'd eventually elect a new leader. It's not like the loyalist legions sat around waiting for the lost primarchs to return. Of course this wouldn't be such a mystery if Matt Ward had been willing to give us a page detailing the chapter layout with names. I guess some chapters are too awesome to fully flesh out in one book. While some act disappointed at being left with such holes, I'm happy with it. It's a good excuse for players to construct their own characters to cover up the gap with our imaginations imo.

 

As for the Terminus Decree, there is some conspiracy going around that Draigo's fate has been planned by the dark gods (or at least Tzeentch) to keep it from ever being activated - crafty huh? I like it anyway. Still one problem with it all - how do other SGMs pass on it's secret to the next SGM if they're dead??? I hope it's not something they just 'realise' once they become SGM. Perhaps it's just written on a piece of paper in the SGM office desk...

 

I have the new codex, natch. I like a lot of the stuff in it, and I'm trying to include a lot of it - excepting special characters, and so on. But, at a push, if I had to say which tone the novel takes, it's the "quiet, humble, secretive, noble, uncompromising on purity" slant, rather than the "bombastic, glorious, ruthless, uncompromising on victory" angle.

 

And this was an actual, word-for-word conversation with my editor, in discussion over the novel's climax:

 

NICK KYME: "Maybe this could be a place to show a Dreadknight?"

 

ME: "That really won't be happening."

Read this, punched my fist into the air with a 'YES!' - woke the whole house up. *ahem*

 

With its rules and the heroic role in the centrepiece story - the one that comes off more as a cynical piece of advertising just for its model ('The Purging of Jollana'?) - does the Dreadknight really need more positive PR?

[Megadoomer]

I'm really hoping that all the **** Grey Knight fluff is really only one side of much more sinister story and when the new Chaos Space Marine Codex comes out, the gaps will be filled in.

 

for example..

 

901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin

The Primarch Mortarion emerges from the Plague Planet much to the surprise of his followers and leads a daemonic assault on the world of Kornovin. After effortlessly striking down the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, Mortarion has his bodyguard stand down, lowers his scythe and allows the newly elevated Grand Master Kaldor Draigo to strike him down. Unbeknownst to Draigo, Mortarion planned for this, and now has the next ingredient in Nurgle's new concoction.

 

999.M41 The God's Prize

Draigo continues to wander the Warp, fighting a never ending stream of pointless battles with beings that can never truly die. Though able to crush this pest with a thought, the Chaos Gods decide to stay their hand, and allow this intruder to survive in their midst. As a child may watch a fly trapped under a jar, the Chaos Gods continue to study Draigo, knowing one day the futility of his endless war will finally break even his monumental will. On that day, the Gods hope to claim a new champion.

[Son of Rawl]

I'm really hoping that all the **** Grey Knight fluff is really only one side of much more sinister story and when the new Chaos Space Marine Codex comes out, the gaps will be filled in.

 

for example..

 

901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin

The Primarch Mortarion emerges from the Plague Planet much to the surprise of his followers and leads a daemonic assault on the world of Kornovin. After effortlessly striking down the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, Mortarion has his bodyguard stand down, lowers his scythe and allows the newly elevated Grand Master Kaldor Draigo to strike him down. Unbeknownst to Draigo, Mortarion planned for this, and now has the next ingredient in Nurgle's new concoction.

 

999.M41 The God's Prize

Draigo continues to wander the Warp, fighting a never ending stream of pointless battles with beings that can never truly die. Though able to crush this pest with a thought, the Chaos Gods decide to stay their hand, and allow this intruder to survive in their midst. As a child may watch a fly trapped under a jar, the Chaos Gods continue to study Draigo, knowing one day the futility of his endless war will finally break even his monumental will. On that day, the Gods hope to claim a new champion.

 

As awesome as that sounds it will sadly never happen ;)

[Piousservant]

Except, this isn't the first time it's been gone into. The nature of the warp has been a central part of the fluff for a very long time. They've previously expounded on the difference several times and in all the instances before this, it's pretty much been uniformly Psyonics = talent, Sorcery = trained skill. Yes, they're both ways of manipulating the same dark energies, but one's like an automatic transmission and the other's a standard. A standard transmission that'll turn your fingers into goo. This does tie into a question of 'how it's weilded', but maybe we're really looking at 'the intent with which it's weilded'. The latter would also fit nicely into the background, for the warp is a reflection of the material realm. The warp is largely defined by the minds of men, so, if in those there is a difference, then there will be a difference in the warp.

 

Naw, I know. But this is the first time it's been laid out in these terms, and like I said, it's something I've been hearing from Games Dev folks and IP peeps behind the scenes for a while, when the topic has come up in meetings (or I've asked, etc.) so it's not exactly new. So you've got to wonder how much of the past has been poor explanation or fan speculation; how much was just assumed by the fandom (like a lot of Lexicanum) and just "became truth" because so many people reinforced it over time (which we've seen with countless 'facts'); and how much is a legitimate retcon or a final, explicit statement of truth that was supposed to be illuminating, rather than met with hostility.

 

I have no freaking idea, myself. But it's an interesting clash.

 

I always understood the difference to be, psykers - using their latent powers/raw talent, sorcerers - effectively adding to those powers through the use of rituals and so forth.

 

As for where that came from, well I think all the previous Grey Knight and Thousand Son background is what gave people that idea...

 

I know that it was retconned so the Emperor banned all use of psychic power in the Legions, rather than sorcery - but the old Thousand Sons Index Astartes was pretty clear on the distinction between the two (at least, in how the Emperor saw it - and I always thought he was a bit of an expert in this psykery and sorcery stuff). That's probably the most direct/pronounced elaboration but Codex Daemonhunters and Chaos Daemons also aluded to it I think. In fact, not too sure, but I suspect the Eisenhorn/Ravenor trilogies probably took a similar angle on psykers/sorcerers as well.

 

 

@Megadoomer - "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"...?? ;) I like it though!!