Belial

[Grand Master Neo]

so since the new faq i have been working on belial's squad but can't decide how to set him up

 

my squad consists of:

banner bearer with th/ss

apothecary with th/ss

1 cyclone with th/ss

1 th/ss

1 assault cannon/flamer depending what mood i'm in at the time

[Tanhausen]

Only 1 HW allowed unfortunately...

[Bringer of Redemption]

How you set up Belial depends on how you treat him. At 130 points, he's not a major investment and all of his upgrades are free, so you have plenty of options. In the squad you have listed, I would recommend Lighting Claws, since you currently have no 'first strike' capability--the entire squad is limited to I1. However, using that setup he only has the 5+ invuln. save, making it much easier to kill him, even if you take advantage of wound allocation. If you're interested in seeing him survive, then use the TH/SS build.

 

Also, for heavy weapons in a terminator squad you're limited to a flammer or an assault cannon or a CML, so you can't have both the CML and either the assault cannon or the flamer.

 

--BoR

[TyrionTheImp]

Yeah, that squad set up is illegal, but to answer your question, I'd still go with TLCs.

 

Why?

 

Majority of fire that is AP2 or less is going to most likely be Strength 8 or higher, there are exceptions to this of course, but not many. Belial doesn't have Eternal Warrior, but he does have multiple wounds. Now, losing a single wound Terminator to a Lascannon shot isn't bad, losing a 3 wound IC is. Not to mention, he's I5, why waste it with a Hammer? This is especially true in an all TH/SS squad, where 3++'s are all around him. Plus, the extra attack from dual wielding claws gives him 5 power weapon attacks with the banner (6 on the charge), rerolling wounds, which is pretty good for his cost.

 

Now, if Belial had Eternal Warrior (I doubt it'd happen next codex, but you never know!), the TH/SS would be worth it, because then you can slack heavy weapon wounds on him and it won't matter, he'd be like a mini-Lysander, but then they'd have to up his points cost.

[shortysl]

Ok, i DO run Belial with TH/SS and he has been smashing his way through Dreadnoughts and infantry alike. He has not died once in the last half a dozen battles he's been in and he's been in the middle of the enemy army every time. The secret is target selection. Very few opponents are truly dangerous enough to threaten Belial and his command squad. Stick them in a Land Raider Crusader and you can choose your targets.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Yeah, that squad set up is illegal, but to answer your question, I'd still go with TLCs.

 

Why?

 

Majority of fire that is AP2 or less is going to most likely be Strength 8 or higher, there are exceptions to this of course, but not many. Belial doesn't have Eternal Warrior, but he does have multiple wounds. Now, losing a single wound Terminator to a Lascannon shot isn't bad, losing a 3 wound IC is. Not to mention, he's I5, why waste it with a Hammer? This is especially true in an all TH/SS squad, where 3++'s are all around him. Plus, the extra attack from dual wielding claws gives him 5 power weapon attacks with the banner (6 on the charge), rerolling wounds, which is pretty good for his cost.

 

Now, if Belial had Eternal Warrior (I doubt it'd happen next codex, but you never know!), the TH/SS would be worth it, because then you can slack heavy weapon wounds on him and it won't matter, he'd be like a mini-Lysander, but then they'd have to up his points cost.

However, when Belial is in combat with a MC or a PF wielding baddy, that 5++ suddenly gets to be a huge drawback. I prefer the TH+SS, as that's how I originally built him, and with it he has waded through Plasma, MCs, and PWs alike. I put my faster strikecapability in the squad with Lightning Claws and usually a Chaplain (in large games) instead of leaving my IC less protected.

[TyrionTheImp]

Well, as with most things it's up to the local metagame. Almost nobody brings powerfists, or klaws, or what not to the party where I am, and even if they did, one can try to avoid base-to-base contact (which honestly should be done anyways even with a TH/SS Belial). We can't always count on that happening, and it's not like the TH/SS costs anything, so I suppose it's a matter of preference.

 

Also, I feel that the entire reason I bring Belial is for terminator troops and of course the Deathwing Command options. His statline is subpar compared to other ICs in Marine Codices (WS5 anyone?), and his options are limited practically to those of a normal terminator. I see him more as a "squad upgrade" than an actual IC, and the best way to make use of that is, in my opinion, lightning claws for the extra attacks at I5. Even a full command Deathwing Squad is only 5 models, and having everyone hit at I1 could mean death if faced with a large enough amount of attacks. Of course, that's what CML's are for, softening them up before you roll into them.

 

Honestly though, it never hurts to have all three versions ready, not like the upgrade costs anything and if you're just playing at a local store I'm sure people won't mind too much (I wouldn't personally care) if you pick one before the battle.

 

Of course, this wouldn't be as big of a question if Belial actually had an Iron Halo (5++ to 3++ is big, 4++ to 3++ not so much). Why GW thought he didn't deserve one, even though he's of Captain rank, still boggles me.

[HsojVvad]

Of course, this wouldn't be as big of a question if Belial actually had an Iron Halo (5++ to 3++ is big, 4++ to 3++ not so much). Why GW thought he didn't deserve one, even though he's of Captain rank, still boggles me.

Different mind set when the codex was going to be made. Remember the DA codex was the way of the future. SM players complained so much that GW had a second thought and finally changed after more SM people complained after Eldar and Chaos SM got their codex that things finally changed. GW coudln't take the chance on less sales of SM players that they changed thier mind set or philosphy on how 5th edtion was going to be.

[Master Avoghai]

Of course, this wouldn't be as big of a question if Belial actually had an Iron Halo (5++ to 3++ is big, 4++ to 3++ not so much). Why GW thought he didn't deserve one, even though he's of Captain rank, still boggles me.

Different mind set when the codex was going to be made. Remember the DA codex was the way of the future. SM players complained so much that GW had a second thought and finally changed after more SM people complained after Eldar and Chaos SM got their codex that things finally changed. GW coudln't take the chance on less sales of SM players that they changed thier mind set or philosphy on how 5th edtion was going to be.

 

I think Tyrion rather meant : Why every Company master are built-in with the Iron Halo (even Sammael), and Belial, the Master of the 1st Company has not the right to get one?

 

It has nothing to do with SM vs DA.

[Tanhausen]

As for preventing B2B contact, remember that the new core BRB FAQ make it compulsory FIRST to move the IC into combat so... its not so easy to "hide" the IC anymore.

[Frater Uriah]

Of course, this wouldn't be as big of a question if Belial actually had an Iron Halo (5++ to 3++ is big, 4++ to 3++ not so much). Why GW thought he didn't deserve one, even though he's of Captain rank, still boggles me.

Different mind set when the codex was going to be made. Remember the DA codex was the way of the future. SM players complained so much that GW had a second thought and finally changed after more SM people complained after Eldar and Chaos SM got their codex that things finally changed. GW coudln't take the chance on less sales of SM players that they changed thier mind set or philosphy on how 5th edtion was going to be.

 

I think Tyrion rather meant : Why every Company master are built-in with the Iron Halo (even Sammael), and Belial, the Master of the 1st Company has not the right to get one?

 

It has nothing to do with SM vs DA.

You're right, it doesn't. C:DA was still a 4th Ed. Codex. Despite being touted as 'the Way of the Future' in the era of 'Simplify, Simplify, Simplify,' there was very little innovation to C:DA. According to C:SM 4th Ed., models in TDA couldn't use Iron Halos. C:DA actually broke the mould for Iron Halos, because in C:SM v.4, you could only have one Iron Halo (and one Adamantine Mantle, or dude immune to Instant Death) per army. In C:DA, suddenly every Captain could get his hands on an Iron Halo, and Sammael became the lucky recipient of immunity from Instant Death. But the whole 'TDA can't use Iron Halos' stuck, making Belial an unfortunate victim of being equipped with superior armour, along with the WS of 5 for our commanders (which I notice was conveniently glossed over in our new FAQ, though every little bit helps).

[Mentat]

I use the following squad:

 

Belial TH/SS (he has never failed me with this configuration, even before the FAQ)

Chaplain, TDA

1. Apothecary with storm bolter/chainfist

2. Banner with lightning claw

3. Lightning claws

4. Lightning claws/cyclone

5. lightning claws

 

Belial actually breaks away to go where he is needed. This squad excels at taking out hordes, and is pretty good at killing TH/SS terminators (should kill about 4 TH/SS terminators on the charge at I5/4, not counting chainfist and Belial). Actually they pretty much kill anything they come in contact with. The chainfist with 4 attacks on the charge gets rid of most vehicles, and sometimes the cyclone can pop a transport so they can charge the contents. Honestly, I don't even keep Belial stuck in a particular squad, I just move him where he is needed, often breaking him away to tie something up for a turn or two until my squads finish what they are killing and come to help him. He can tie up anything without a S8+ attack pretty well, and evn a SGT with a power fist usually doesn't take him out (but its risky)

[Tanhausen]

Is that claws unit footslogging?

 

Because if it isn't, then 250 points need to be factored when weighing the usefulness.

[Mentat]

I have used them both ways, if I use a raider I don't put Belial with them.

 

I do usually use them as footslogging... I have NEVER had a problem getting them to grips with the enemy in objective games. You just have to plan ahead. If they avoid them then you have denied a large portion of the table around an objective. However if you play a lot against Eldar or other such annoying xenos, then it may not be the best plan for you.

 

In kill point games I usually use them as a counter charge unit.

[dizzy-xc]

Footslogging termy squad LC's w/o any TH/SS's? Wow.

[Tanhausen]

That is one EXPENSIVE countercharge unit... good, without doubt, but very expensive just to sit around guarding an objective.

 

But as usual: if it works in your games, cool :angry:

[Mentat]

Well they don't just sit around. They move to where the action is. Very often I am can castle up in kill point games, but don't always need to. My squad can dish out cyclone shots either way. I am aggressive with the other squads when appropriate, which distracts fire from them. Until very recently I only used a couple of TH/SS anyway. Now its even better because the TH/SS/Cyclone squads are moving to contact as well. The reason I say counter charge is that I try to get a unit tied up first then bring the LCs in. This allows me to actually get the assault. This also eliminates the no grenade problem. If you advance in an inverted triangle formation it works well. (2 squads in front, LC squad behind, usually can get a cover save). I DWA into the enemy's face when appropriate, but rarely. I have found land raiders expensive and easily destroyed in our local "meta" due to the number of drop podding melta vets, etc. but I have used them occasionally. Mostly footslogging is about guessing where the key points of the battles will be (easy with objectives), and planning ahead so you can get to grips with the enemy.

 

Footslogging termy squad LC's w/o any TH/SS's? Wow.

 

Well with the new FAQ I have thought of adding 2 TH/SS to the squad but I really like the huge number of I4 attacks, I may swap in one TH/SS to suck up low AP hits.

[Tanhausen]

My standard configuration is Sarge with PW, CML TH, CF, Claws, TH.

 

Many people say those claws and PW are a waste, I should go all TH...but I've defended their Ini4 role just like you do.

 

But on the other hand, going full claws really misses the opportunity both for wound allocation AND tactical flexibility.

 

We get S8 attacks for free, don't need to buy upgrades... you just might as well throw a couple of TH in the unit :)

 

Extreme specialists tend to be danced around, specially if they lack mobility.

 

Obviously, the units don't work in vacuum, so besides your local meta, your list is also important :)

[Mentat]

Yeah I've been thinking of swapping my #5 guy for a TH for wound allocation purposes.

 

Go ahead and dance around my command squad in an objective game..... their purpose is to kill the enemy deathstar or capture the objective anyway. If you want to give me a free objective then my other squads can work on the other 1-2.

 

I have only played a couple of games since the FAQ. So far my stuff has worked better with the addition of 2 TH/SS/cyclone squads instead of the standard assault cannon squad..

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Well, as with most things it's up to the local metagame. Almost nobody brings powerfists, or klaws, or what not to the party where I am, and even if they did, one can try to avoid base-to-base contact (which honestly should be done anyways even with a TH/SS Belial). We can't always count on that happening, and it's not like the TH/SS costs anything, so I suppose it's a matter of preference.

This boggles my mind that PFs and PKs are rare. Local metas and all that, of course, but an Ork army without claws is an army that can't kill AV14.

 

As for avoiding B2B, ICs have to move first, and if even one guys gets into B2B with him, the PF can swing at him as long as the player has used it smart and avoided putting the PF model on the front line. It's quite hard to avoid hidden PFs with a good player.

[Tanhausen]

Orks can kill AV14 ramming with deffrolla ;)