The next Sisters book

[Eddie Orlock]

It's been such a long time since I've initiated a thread around here, but these are some thoughts I've been mulling over in various incarnations, for various books for quite some time.

 

In essence, the goal and ideal of this thread and this line of thought is to forecast the contents of the next Sisters book if it was to start the development cycle tomorrow with the current games development team of Ward, Cruddace, Kelly, et al. Per the topic description it is mandated that this is not 'wishlist' threat, any and all postulations must be supported or refuted by an informed argument drawn from observeable trends. It is in the scope of this discussion that any aspect of the book is fair game. Naturally, all such suppositions are subject to the caviet that the studio remains constant upto and including the release of this book

 

By way of example consider the following:

 

It is observed that the recent codices released under this team include a summary sheet describing the unit profiles and weapon profiles of the selections available in the book, thus we can expect to see such a page in a forth coming Sisters book.

 

... and now into my initial investigations ...

 

Considering the changes in formats in the current generations of Codicies: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Eldar as compared to the previous versions of these books we can be confident that there will not be an armoury page with wargear costs, that unit entries will be substancially self contained with limited reference to other entries or dependancies, and that there will be a preponderance of special characters in the HQ section. We can reasonably expect similar changes.

 

The most recently released books, Blood Angles, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar have counted 96 pages each, other recent releases, Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Orks have counted 104 pages, Chaos Deamons and Spacemarines are outliers at 88 and 144 pages each respectively. This gives us some confidence that such a book as the one we're predicting will have a page count of either 104 or 96 sheets.

 

Concurrent with the book's release there will be a new range of figures. Looking at current ranges and the elimination of hybrid plastic/metal kits and the elimination of metal core selections we can be confident that such a range would include a plastic sisters boxed set and a new, all plastic, Excorsist. Further, as each of these recently released books to my familiarity, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Guard, Chaos Deamons, and presumably Grey Knights have included here to fore unseen in the book selections and have been acompanied if eventually by the appropriate kits we will see such selections in the subject of our speculation. In the case of the Imperial Guard particularly, we've seen the incusion of units that were the historic province of Forge World, this gives us a basis for the inclusion of the Repressor as a dedicated transport selection.

 

The recently released, and soon to be released books Blood Angles, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights have included units that are viewed in the background material as 'Flyers'. This suggests that a Sisters book may see some form of flyer element which may or may not have some precidence in a forgeworld publication. Alternatively, if the inclusion of flyers is suspected for sixth edition we may see some support units given some manner of aircraft suppressive rule, this may be an upgrade available for Excorsits launchers.

 

Codex: Sisters of Battle included unit entries for Sisters on foot, Seraphim, Standard Bearers, and Canonii. It also included rules for various grades of priest and fratris milita as well as a special allowance for allies to plug the holes in the list. The Third Ed rule book list included unit entries Canonii, Celestians, Ordinary Sisters, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors. Assasins were available though Codex: Assasins. Codex: WitchHunters included Canonii, Palatines, Celestians, Repentia, Ordinary Sisters, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors. It also included as substancial selection of auxilia units inclusive of various Inquisitors, Assasins, Acros and Penitant Engines, Arbites and Storm Troopers and Orbital support. Millitias were made available through a chapter approved article for a while. It is observed that Ordinary Sisters on foot, Seraphim, and Canonii are core to the identity of the faction and we might presume that there presence is thus a given. We might also speculate that rabble hordes may be introduced in a more substancial form given their historical presence, absence, debatable presence, and subsequent sweeping under the rug,as an excuse to sell a lot of low points figures and differentiate the Battle Sisters as a not-so-elite force.

 

As an extension of the above, Codex: Sisters of battle included the ubiquitous Rhino transport along side the unique Immolator. The third edition rule book list also included these vehicles, but in the absence of my reference materials I do not recall if the Excorsist was included in the list yet. The Excorsist was included in Imperial Armour II and later in in Codex: WhichHunters. Repressors remained the sole province of the Imperial Armour series. Land Raiders were also available in this last book in a limited form as transport for Inquisitors. Non-Sisters elements with transport options were allowed to select Chimeras. We have reason to believe that the studio is unlikely to remove options at this point and on this premise can presume the inclusion of Rhinos, Immolators, and Excorsists. The inclusion of a Repressor with rules that may obselete the Rhino is likely as it would drive sales, have a precidend, and we've seen the list adopt forgeworld selection before in the case of the Excorsist. The inclusion of Chimeras is not unlikely depending on how the non-sororita elements are developed, more firm conclusions on this may be drawn from the forth coming Grey Knight book. The case for Land Raiders is much the same as it is for Chimeras unless the fluff gets monkied with and the Imperial Edict that they're for Marines only gets repealed. We're also likely to see at least one here to fore unseen selection.

 

So far this gives us a tenative unit list that looks like the following: Gaggle of Special Girls, Generic Sisters Heroine, Generic Inquisitor, Elite Sisters, Ordinary Sisters, Heavy Sisters, Sisters with Special Weapons, Flying Sisters, Emo Sisters in Tight Leather with Massive Chainsowrds, Rhinos, Excorsists, Repressors, Immolators, Priests, Elite lobotomised infantry, Lay Parishioners, Doom Cultists in Robot Suits, Official Assasins, Unoffical Assasins and other Hench-types, Coppers, Orbital Support, Infantry Unseen before, and Vehicle Without Anticedant. This give us between twenty and thirty unique entries. For now I'll leave it as an excercise for other participants in this discussion to produce unique unit entry counts for other codices for comparison.

 

With regard to book structure, having extablished above an expectation of 96 pages (note this value is subject to modification if work of a hard cover fantasy Orc book pans out, has a different page count and pans over to the forty first millenium), of which we can expect one cover sheet, one table of contents, one introductory page, and one summary page we have a balance of 92 pages left to work with. In our army list recent codices (Orks, Spacemarines, Chaos Spacemarines, Spacewolves, Bloodangles, Tyranids, and Eldar that I've observed recently) have tended to have a one to two page spread of special crutches at the start with occasional entries for unique elements thoughout the list. We can also expect a couple of pages given over to the generic HQ's and some retinue options and thus expend four pages on command giving us a balnce of 88 left. In the crowded elite section a half dozen option dense options and take a stab at three pages leaving us with a balance of 85. If we include the dedicated transports sidebars I'd speculate on five unique troops selections for two pages, new count of 83. I'd go a spot the Vehicle without Anticedant in the fast section and give it a sparse three entries for a page and skip into the heavy section and say there might be five choices here based upon my list above and bring these two section upto three pages and give us a balance of eighty remaining. Naturally if we follow the trends in the books mentioned earlier in this paragraph, and this whole excercise is predicated on just that, we can expect about six pages give or take on common equipment and over all army special rules leaving us with 75 pages remaining. All at once I'm going to knock off about a page a unit as is the modern custom and slash an average 25 pages leaving us with fifty. The remaining fifty will donate a fair chunck to fluff travisties and include the colour paint guides and army pix. Again, detailed analysis of the structure of the current range is a study for further posts and collaboration with my peers is desired to verify that these assertions are concurrant with current trends.

 

At this point I turn it over to my peers around here and await their response.

[Azezel]

First off, while 'Canon' (and thus 'Canonness') is derived from the latin (and before that, Greek), it is not a latin word, so we pluralise 'Canonness' as 'Canonnesses'.

 

 

Anyway, you challenged me to defend the idea that the Inquisition may not have a presence in this putative new codex. As you rightly point out, the future can only properly be argued in light of the past.

 

I make no claim of having lived the events I am about to describe, I have however, stuudied the story closely and spoken to several people who did experience it first-hand. (If you are suuch a person, please point out any inacuuracies, or provide any details I have missed.)

 

So here's how it all went down.

 

After the debacle with the Squats (and frankly, it wasn't as bad at the time as it's made out to be now. The Squats probably have more fans today then they ever did in the nineties.) Games Workshop swore to never again squat an established army. A good move by Games Workshop. The late nineties were a tempestuous era when, for the first time, widespread internet access allowed fans to share and feed on one another's rage as never before.

 

In 2001 Games Workshop published Inquisitor, a 54mm scale miniatures game based around, you guessed it, the Inquisition. Though an established part of the universe, the Inquisition had barely featured in the actual 40k tabletop game at this point (Slaves to Darkness, for example).

 

Partially to adress that, and partially to advertise, or at least, promote Inquisitor, Games Workshop hatched a grand plan, to create three new 40k armies, on for each of the three main Ordos of the Inquisition.

A gutsy, and in fairness, sound plan. Games Workshop's premier game was 40k, most of their customers never explored the other, smaller games. however, by throwing the spotlight onto the Inquisition with these new armies, Games Workshop hoped to tempt people into playing Inquisitor, in adition to 40k.

 

Daemonhunters was by far the simplest codex to write. The Grey Knights already had a range of models available, and a ready-made fanbase amongst those who had used their previous army lists. Deamonhunters was released in 2003, already a full two years after Inquisitor. This was problematic.

 

As I say, Daemonhunters was the easiest of the three planned codices, and already third edition was starting to show it's age. This, coupled with Games Workshop's other new armies (Tau, released just before Daemonhunters, and Necrons, released just afterwards) meant that the ambitions three-army plan would have to be scaled back.

 

Of the two remaining Inquisition codices, Witch Hunters would be by far the hardest army to create. The Hereticus itself could scrape by with some modified Daemonhunters units. The Stormtroopers, the assassins etc. Oh, there were changes, significant ones, but nothing very taxing.

 

What to do about thee Hereticus' Chamber Militant, though? The heart and soul of the army. you see, the Hereticus had allways had a chapter of Astartes as Chamber Militant. The Chapter had never been named, it had no known heroes, or background. Not only would this chapter need fluff, it would need models, a whole range of new, exciting models. It was a gargantuan challenge and, frankly, Games Workshop were not up to it. They were in the tail end of creating one new army (Tau) and the middle of a second (Necrons). No way could they make a third at the same time.

 

And time was running out. Third edition was nearly dead. This was a problem. Remember Games Workshop had promised never again to squat an army? What about the Sisters of Battle? The massive changes between second and third edition rendered their 2e codex worthless, and the army list in 2002's Chapter Aproved scarecely qualified as an update. Games Workshop knew the fallout, should they even appear to be squatting the Sisters of Battle would be significant. We Siisters players tend to be on the zealous side...

 

Suddenly! An idea occured. Codex: Witch Hunters went from the hardest Inquisition codex to the easiest! Games Workshop simply coppied the 2002 Chapter Approved list, rejigged it a little, BS3-BS4 for example, a point adjustment or two, nothing fancy - and combined it with the rejigged Daemonhunters Inquisition units they already had.

 

Compared to making a whole new army, it was a doddle. They wouldn't need a new range of models for the chamber Militant, they'd been making Battle Sisters since '96! They wouldn't need to fluff out a whole chapter of witch-hunting Astartes, just slam out one page of 'yeah, the Sisters work for the Inquisition now. anyone brave enough to say different?'

 

It was a sensation - Games Workshop had solved two problems with one half-arsed codex, and in time to shove it out the door before fourth edition. Sure, they didn't have enough time to make sure the rules would still work in fourth edition, but by god they got that codex out the door.

 

 

History lesson over. The very specific set of circumstances which gave rise to Codex: Witch Hunters no longer exist. These circumstances are the reason why the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters of Battle were combined into a single coodex.

 

At this stage, retconning the relationship between the Inquisition and Sisterhood is probably not wise, but there is little reason to let the past repeat and force the Sisters to play house-guest in their own codex.

 

I say 'little reason', the best reason is that there exist Witch Hunter players - people who do not play pure Sisters OR pure Inquisition, but a combination. These people would find certain models useless if the apropriate Inquisition units did not apear in a future Sisters codex.

 

To these people I say firstly, perhaps you could comiserate with any Space Wolf player who no longer has a use for his Leman Russ tank? It's rare, but Games Workshop has invalidated models in the past.

 

Secondly, I would invite the Witch Hunters player to read carefully the upcoming Codex: Grey Knights. Unless I miss my guess, it is designed to allow for a Witch Hunters army. Perhaps not a 1:1 transfer, your Battle Sisters will be BS3 and lack Acts of Faith - but your models and your army make-up will not (if I'm right) be invalidated.

 

 

I believe the inclusion of Inquisitors from the Ordos Hereticuus and Xenos - particularly the inclusion of Karamazov - indicates a deliberate move to consolidate all Inquisitorial elements within a single codex.

 

While I personally welcome the idea unreservedly, it is not my intention here to make a value-judgement, merely to argue for the possibility that there will be no Inquisitorial element in a putative new Codex: Sisters of Battle.

[Growler67]

I believe the inclusion of Inquisitors from the Ordos Hereticuus and Xenos - particularly the inclusion of Karamazov - indicates a deliberate move to consolidate all Inquisitorial elements within a single codex.

 

As it has already "gone to press" there is little more than anticipatory speculation left. It would be the MOST logical toincorporate ALL the Ordos of the Inquisition into a single Codex. Like C:SM, there is variation which a player/collector may exercise to field what they wish within the rules established. In one wishes to Field strictly Malleus or Hereticus then "as it is written, so let it be done". If one also wishes to incorporate the smaller Xenos into what they field or have the flexibility to "spice up" their Ordos Army with a Kill-Team or two, then that possibility would also exist. All of these variations to suit an individuals tastes ALL incorporated in a single Codex would reduce the number of books one would have to bring and be familiar with when gaming, thus the logic of a combined Codex is so evident.

 

In the "Rumors and Speculation" thread there is mention of Wargear Options for Inquisitor Lords of other Ordos though it appears to be a Malleus/Grey Knight dominant publication. I posed a question there that apparently was skipped over/ignored or for whatever reasons unanswered about the Ordo Xenos. At this point it appears that GW may be leaving the door open for "Codex suppliment" as add-ons as they have done before. It is entirely possible that they won't be "actual" Codices but rather a compilation of: Chapter Approved elements, rules and such from various sources including but not limited to FAQ's and WD Articles. The Primary would be the impending GK/Malleus Codex with "Suppliments" for Hereticus and Xenos.

 

GW has done little over the years to impress me with the "logic" of their decision making process. However, be that what it may and as GREAT as it might be, I do believe that those that are disappointed with the release will have to hope that any supplimentals will arrive in short order afterwards or GW will risk, once again, missing hitting while the iron is hot.

[chaplain belisarius]

i just want plastic sob...soon as that happens im getting that sob army! (id like matt ward to not do the next sob dex-id rather have phil kelly write it, that guy is a great dex writer in my opinion!)

 

my 2 cents...:tu:

[number6]

Hey, there chaplain belisarius, we like your 2 cents, but your sentiment is clearly not related to the topic at hand.

 

No derailings, please!

 

OK, MODHAT removed. Back to your scheduled thread topic.

[Inquisitor Fox]

In response to some of your writings, Azezel, while I do not have any evidence to directly contradict what you have written, there is evidence of long established fluff that Does show a working relationship between the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas. This evidence does show there is a connection between the two, and it was not just a simple time saving decision to mass market a new army (or rebirth an old one) but a legitimate connection to get something updated and elaborate upon already existing information.

 

Three sources besides the Witch Hunters Codex come to mind, two from prior publication dates of the Codex itself. Firstly, the original Codex: Sisters of Battle (published 1997) mentions the working relationship when it is discussing the events of the Age of Apostasy and the formation of the Ordo Hereticus, particularly the Convocation of Nephilim. This fluff is expanded with the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force article from Citadel Journal # 49 (written by Andy Hoare, who also wrote and helped contribute to other Codices) in 2002. Just these two works on their own establish plenty of precedent for the inclusion of the two forces together in a single book. The Inquisition Background Book (published by the Black Library in 2007) also provides evidence, however as it came out after Codex: Witch Hunters (2004) it is more confirmation material than new material.

 

It is possible that there are earlier references in Codex Imperialis, however I'm not as intimately familiar with that material as I don't read it much since it's all out of date and I bought it for fluff purposes only ;)

 

EDIT: Stupid brain remembering my last point I wanted to hit after hitting the post button...

 

Ahem, that being said, the inclusion of potentially all Inquisitorial elements in the Grey Knights Codex means that it's really up in the air. Some elements of the Imperium are available to multiple Codices (Priests come to mind, being available to both the Imperial Guard as well as the Witch Hunters) so I could see this going either way. We will simply have to wait and see how things go down the road.

 

EDIT 2: Alright, so the mention of the Convocation of Nephilim is apparently in another book (perhaps that's in Codex Imperialis, I know I've seen it outside of Codex: Witch Hunters), but there is definately mention of the Ordo Hereticus in Codex: Sisters of Battle on page 14. :P

 

EDIT 3: I'm having difficulty tracking down the exact reference of the Convocation of Nephilim, I remember this being a problem when I wanted to research it before. I apologize for bringing up a potential can of worms.

[Eddie Orlock]

Thanks for the input, we may just get to a decent forecast yet if we can stay focused.

 

So, to carry on with my earlier looks at trends in the studio so we can attempt some meaningful extrapolation from them I flipped through the codicies I have on hand to compare them to my initial projections.

 

'Dex Orks has 1 page of special gitz, 4 entries; 1 page HQ choices, 3 entires; 2 pages elites, 6 entires; 1 page of troops that includes the dedicated transports, 3* entries; 1 page of fast, 4 entries; and 2 pages of support, 5 entries. Totals of 7 pages and 25 unique entries, give or take the opinion that upgrades that arguably radically change the role of the standard boys mob may make them count as a seperate selection depending on list design choices. Examining the table of contents, the forces section consumes 33 pages, of which 7 are squandered on unique gitz and one is given to army wide rules. The colour poriton fills 25 pages, whereas the fluffy bits at the front ocupy ~27 pages. There are four pages of wargear. Copyright 2007, Phil Kelly

 

'Dex Chaos Marines has 2 pages of unique spuds, 7 entries; 2 pages HQ, 3 entries; 2 pages elites, 4 entries; 3 pages troops, 6 entries including rhino sidebar; 1 page fast, 3 entries; 2 pages heavy, 6 entries; 1 page supernumeries, 2 entries. Totals of 11 pages and 31 unique units. Examination of the table of contents reveals, the forces section consumes 34 pages of which 10 are squandered on unique spuds, 1 is partially used to describe the marks and ~3 are lost to additional fluff. The colour portion fills about 17 pages, whereas the fluffy bits up front fill about 19. There are 8 pages of wargear. Copyright 2007, Thorpe and Cavatore

 

'Dex 'Nids has 2 pages of HQ with 6 entries, and a note that unique elements are intermingled; 2 pages of elites with 8 entries; 2 pages of troops with 6 entries including transport sidebar; 2 pages fast, 6 entries; 2 pages heavy, 6 entries. Totals of 10 pages and 32 unique entries. Examination of the table of contents yields: the forces section consumes 29 pages with 6 consumed uniqely and one given over to the rules gods. There are 16 colour plates, fluffy bit at the front goes on for 27 pages. There are 5 pages of psychic powers and Bio morphs. Copyright 2009, Robin Cruddace

 

'Dex Eldar has 2 pages of HQ with 12(!)* unique entries; 2 pages of elites with 6 entries including transport sidebar; 1 page of troops with 4 entries; 1 page of fast with 4 entries; 2 pages of support with 6 entries and a flashy reprint of the second ed codex cover art. If the selection of the pheonix lords is viewed as one entry there are only 7 HQ listings. Totals are 8 pages with 32 unique units. Examining the table of contents, the forces section comes to 38 pages of which 7 are lost to legendary perps, 1 is given to army rules, 1 to weaponry, and one to psychic powers. The colour portion is 16 pages long. Preliminary fluffy bits go on for 17 pages including one page on each of the five noteable craft worlds. Copyright 2006, Phil Kelly

 

So, from the surveys above we might surmise that army list page counts vary around 7 to 11 pages and that this number would appear to be increasing with time and that the number of unique entries varies around 25 to 32 with higher counts being more common. If I strip away much of the obfuscatory verbage in the last paragraph of the first post it shakes out that I initially estimated 12 pages with 23 non-special entries. The addition of unique units can easily bring this into the targeted 25 to 32 range and the dozen pages, while potentially high might either be compressed or padded with side bar fluff and pretty pictures, or just plain white space as observed in 'Dex 'Nids, the most recently published of the manuals surveyed. It may be worth noting at this point that eliminating some of the non-sororita units might orphan some currently legal units and I suspect this is unlikely, but it would be a worthwhile excercise for one of my peers with more literature on hand to go through other books and see how many units have been phased out between editions and how recently this has happened. Further, the elimination of said units means more things need to be created. In this case we might debate whether the demands of releaseing a new book and the sloth of the studio would outweigh the joy that may be found in creating new units to collect.

 

The studies of these four books indicate that between 29 and 38 pages are given over to describing the forces and of those pages, between 6 and 10 are given over to authors avatars with higher numbers more likely and more recently in both cases. This suggests that my initial estimate of 25 pages is very likely a little low for this portion of the book, but it didn't include army special rules as these counts did.

 

These surveys note that between 16 and 27 pages are in full colour and given over to paint advice and inspiriation as well as army examples. Later books have had a higher ratio of colour plates than earlier books and the new Orc book is noted as being in full colour, this suggests that we will see a significant number of colour pages in the next book with the distinct possibility of being in full colour. Based on this, I'd stab the number for the speculated book at about 28.

 

Fluffy bits at the starts of these books fill between 17 and 27 pages with larger numbers more recently. This suggests 27 pages is a likely number, as to how they'll be spent, perhaps someone might hazard a guess a the space needed for certain elements we might reasonably expect, inclusive of the reign of vandire and the foundings of the convents on Terra and Ophilia VII and the trials of Thor as well as descriptions of each of the six major divisions. This might give us an idea of how much space Ward can consume introducing things like sisters-esthitician into the fluff.

[Azezel]

I do own Codex: Witch Hunters and am intimately familiar with the sidebar on page 14, which states that the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta sororitas share the goal of monitering the Ecclesiarchy.

 

While I do not own Codex Imperialis I have read it and like to think I'd remember so important a detail. I would very much like a citation since, as stated above, I have and continue to study the subject carefully. Chapter Approved 2002 does not mention the convocation, despite discussing the Age of Apostasy and the formation of the Sororitas.

 

I have not read the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, but even that, I understand, does not say anything more than that the Hereticus and the sisterhood will work together to fight apostasy in the church and renagade Astartes chapters. I do not believe that it mentions anything more formal than an ad-hoc alliance when ther goals are similar.

 

So far as I know, prior to Codex: Witch Hunters there exists no mention of a special relationship between the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta sororitas. If there is such a mention, I would be interested to read it.

 

 

Nevertheless, I have already admitted that retconning the Convocation of Nephilim is unlikely - what matters is the question of Inquisitorial units in a new Sisters codex. I beleive it unlikely for the stated reasons.

 

 

 

As for what the fluff section of a new codex may contain, the answer seems obvious to me: The fluff of the Adepta sororitas - heretofore extremely thin and scattered. Codex: sisters of Battle is a superb fluff source for the Ecclesiarchy - but says remarkably little about the sisterhood itself. Codex: Witch Hunters scarcely has a fluff section.

 

A new codex would need to devote many pages to some important subjects. Ideally, biographies of Saint Alicia and her five sisters - each biography leading on to a piece describing the Order founded by/for them. The core of these sections alrady exist in Codex: Imperialis.

 

The many duties of the Sororitas should also be touched upon. The duties of each Order non Militant, as well as the very varied duties of the Orders Militant (since far too many people think their sole duties are guarding churches and victimising stroppy civilians).

 

I would not be surprised to see a fluff piece on the insidious and slow-burning nature of heresy and apostasy within the Ecclesiarchy, touching upon the dual natuure of the Sororitas, who both protect the church and police it.

[Eddie Orlock]

So far as I know, prior to Codex: Witch Hunters there exists no mention of a special relationship between the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta sororitas. If there is such a mention, I would be interested to read it.

I shall need to review the material, but at this time I'll cite that Codex: Sisters of Battle specifically included an allowance for allies and specifically noted that Imperial agents were available and that Inquisitors were prominent in the Imperial Agent list. While this is not strong evidence it is an indication of a connection to the Inquisition. I'll also note that the three ordos did not rise to prominance until after the release of Inquisitor, and that there are naturally ret-cons associated with this fluff revolution that will require massaging in. Prior to the publication of the 54 mm game, the only ordo of prominence was Malleus.

As for what the fluff section of a new codex may contain, the answer seems obvious to me: The fluff of the Adepta sororitas - heretofore extremely thin and scattered. Codex: sisters of Battle is a superb fluff source for the Ecclesiarchy - but says remarkably little about the sisterhood itself. Codex: Witch Hunters scarcely has a fluff section.

 

A new codex would need to devote many pages to some important subjects. Ideally, biographies of Saint Alicia and her five sisters - each biography leading on to a piece describing the Order founded by/for them. The core of these sections alrady exist in Codex: Imperialis.

 

The many duties of the Sororitas should also be touched upon. The duties of each Order non Militant, as well as the very varied duties of the Orders Militant (since far too many people think their sole duties are guarding churches and victimising stroppy civilians).

 

I would not be surprised to see a fluff piece on the insidious and slow-burning nature of heresy and apostasy within the Ecclesiarchy, touching upon the dual natuure of the Sororitas, who both protect the church and police it.

My estimates in the previous post suggest 27 pages, perhaps you might take a stab at some page counts for the portions you put forth as likely. Perhaps on page per prinicple sister?

[Inquisitor Fox]

While I do not own Codex Imperialis I have read it and like to think I'd remember so important a detail. I would very much like a citation since, as stated above, I have and continue to study the subject carefully. Chapter Approved 2002 does not mention the convocation, despite discussing the Age of Apostasy and the formation of the Sororitas.

In the interests of Academic purity, I withdraw the suggestion of the mention of the Convocation prior to Codex: Witch Hunters until I can find a source beyond "I thought I read it once." :P

I have not read the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, but even that, I understand, does not say anything more than that the Hereticus and the sisterhood will work together to fight apostasy in the church and renagade Astartes chapters. I do not believe that it mentions anything more formal than an ad-hoc alliance when ther goals are similar.

Since I am allowed to quote sections of works for purposes of arguments and discussions, I'll quote sections of the relevant fluff section. The complete section would be four or five paragraphs, and thus a little long.

... On many occasions the Ordo will work alongside the Adepta Sororitas, whose role it is to enforce Ecclesiarchal rule and together the two branches of the Imperium constitute a formidable obstacle to any who would challenge the primacy of the Imperial Creed. The types of operations embarked upon by the joint forces of the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas are often sensitive, and have at times amounted to little more than barely-sanctioned assassination. The most common mission is a rapid, surgical strike against a religious group. ...

 

... Another, thankfully rare task of these joint forces is to hold in check the power of the Space Marine Chapters. ...

... However, the Ordo Hereticus still maintains a watch over those Chapters who they suspect of having diverged too far from approved dogma. ...

... and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. ...

... The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. ...

This seems pretty clear to me, and was obviously a source of inspiration for Codex: Witch Hunters. Sadly they did without the drop pods and the specialized Dominca Pattern Drop Pod and Dominica Pattern Deathwind Drop Pod. Though those are possible returns in a Codex: Sisters of Battle.

 

So far as I know, prior to Codex: Witch Hunters there exists no mention of a special relationship between the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta sororitas. If there is such a mention, I would be interested to read it.

I'll keep looking, if I find it I'll be sure to let you know :lol:

 

As for what the fluff section of a new codex may contain, the answer seems obvious to me: The fluff of the Adepta sororitas - heretofore extremely thin and scattered. Codex: sisters of Battle is a superb fluff source for the Ecclesiarchy - but says remarkably little about the sisterhood itself. Codex: Witch Hunters scarcely has a fluff section.

 

A new codex would need to devote many pages to some important subjects. Ideally, biographies of Saint Alicia and her five sisters - each biography leading on to a piece describing the Order founded by/for them. The core of these sections alrady exist in Codex: Imperialis.

 

The many duties of the Sororitas should also be touched upon. The duties of each Order non Militant, as well as the very varied duties of the Orders Militant (since far too many people think their sole duties are guarding churches and victimising stroppy civilians).

 

I would not be surprised to see a fluff piece on the insidious and slow-burning nature of heresy and apostasy within the Ecclesiarchy, touching upon the dual natuure of the Sororitas, who both protect the church and police it.

Codex Imperialis has 2 pages on the Ministorum and Adepta Sororitas fluff. Only 3 paragraphs is Sisters fluff. The vast majority of established Sisters fluff is in Codex: Sisters of Battle (22 pages of fluff in total, plus a few other pages which sorta count with diagrams of organization and the like in the color'd section) which does include a page and a half detailing the duties of the Sisters and the non-militant orders (pages 35 and 36). Granted this isn't that huge, but by current standards it's pretty big.

 

EDIT: If the current rumors from the Grey Knights Codex are accurate, I would tentatively forcast an Inquisitor HQ option, which would unlock a single Retinue unit. This follows the precedent of Priests in Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Witch Hunters, as well as (more modernly) Harlequins as an Elites option in both Codex: Eldar and Codex: Dark Eldar. There's no reason they can't squeeze the Inquisitor in with the bits of fluff that demonstrate the connection between the two organizations (even if lots of that connection is stepping on each others toes).

[Azezel]

I shall need to review the material, but at this time I'll cite that Codex: Sisters of Battle specifically included an allowance for allies and specifically noted that Imperial agents were available and that Inquisitors were prominent in the Imperial Agent list. While this is not strong evidence it is an indication of a connection to the Inquisition. I'll also note that the three ordos did not rise to prominance until after the release of Inquisitor, and that there are naturally ret-cons associated with this fluff revolution that will require massaging in. Prior to the publication of the 54 mm game, the only ordo of prominence was Malleus.

 

I never said that the Sisterhood did not work with the Inquisition. Every force in the Imperium did and does. Every Second edition codex had an allowance for allies. In fact, Codex: Sisters of Battle explicitly says that it is an allies dex designed to supliment other forces. What I said was that prior to Witch Hunters, the concept of a formal relationship (the Convocation of Nephilim) did not exist, and the reason that the Inquisition and sisterhood were combined in that 'dex was one of expediancy. Before Witch Hunters the Ordo Hereticus was stated to have a chapter of astartes as Chamber Militant.

 

 

]My estimates in the previous post suggest 27 pages, perhaps you might take a stab at some page counts for the portions you put forth as likely. Perhaps on page per prinicple sister?

 

Speculating about page counts strikes me as futile at this stage of the game, but if you'd compel me, I'd say aproximately half a page for each Founder and a page-and-a-half for each Order Majoris.

 

Codex: Witch Hunters takes aproximately three pages to describe the Age of Apostasy and the foundtion of the sororitas, Codex: sisters of Battle takes twelve.

 

Call it six pages in the new 'dex (C:SOB goes into a lot of detail which, while interesting, is extrainious).

 

A further five pages to describe the Orders non-militant (Hospitalier, Familous, Pronatus, Sabine and dialogous).

 

That leaves two pages to discuss the duties of the Orders Militant, including the work they do for the Hereticus, but mostly focusing on theor primary purposes - protecting and policing the church, rooting out and chastising witchcraft, heresy and mutation, guarding routs of pilgramages, prosecuting wars of faith etc.

[Nias Wolf]

Good news everyone! (/professorfarnsworth)

 

One of the people that works at my local Games Workshop said plastic sisters is confirmed. He saw pistures. Said they haven't changed the overall design, just made them customizable like plastic space marines/imperial guard.

 

No solid word on when the update will happen, but he seemed to think it would be the next one after Grey Knights.

 

Technically, this is "hear-say" but still, seemed worth posting.

 

Note: Accidentally posted this is another thread. It belongs in THIS one.

[Vindicatus]

Nias, I want to believe you. Really, I do. I think the background of the Sisters, the way they were formed, trumped by Vandire, and trumped him back in return is positively amazing. I dig their storyline, I dig the fact that they are, by rights, NORMAL HUMANS, capable of horrifically astounding deeds. I hope that it's soon, and that they manage to do the SoB justice.

 

However, let us all remember some important words to live by :

 

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

[Azezel]

Nias, the Red and Black shirts at your local GW know no mofe than we do. And since Jes Goodwin said work had not yet started on plastic Sisters, we know they are not coming for a long old time.

 

Sorry, Old Man. The lead-time for a new plastic kit is rarely less than twelve months, for a problematic kit like Sisters, much longer. Even if work started today, we're looking at the end of next year.

[andrewm9]

Nias, the Red and Black shirts at your local GW know no mofe than we do. And since Jes Goodwin said work had not yet started on plastic Sisters, we know they are not coming for a long old time.

 

Sorry, Old Man. The lead-time for a new plastic kit is rarely less than twelve months, for a problematic kit like Sisters, much longer. Even if work started today, we're looking at the end of next year.

 

They have been started actually he (Jess) just said they were having problems with the sleeves and hair. Work was started on Sisters roughly 6 months after Grey Knights.

[chaplain belisarius]

and that makes me a sad puppy...;)

 

back on topic...id love it if they went more in depth in the new sob dex (recruitment, organisation, famous battles etc etc)

 

faith is all we have...

[JaqTaar]

Concerning the evolution of the SoB-OH-relation, it might be worthwhile to check out the 2004 WD article with the WH codex release notes of the designers.

 

This is translated from the German version of the text:

As soon as the design team fleshed out the madness of the Witchhunters, many dark secrets that no man should ever know, were created and revealed. With the sinister character and the task of the OH in mind, the Sisters fit splendidly as their Divisio Militaris, though we were mindful to give them their own authority beyond the Inquisition. They are still primarily controlled by the Ecclesiarchy, but since the OH watches over the the Ministorum, we decided there should be more than some small overlappings.

By connecting the OH and the Adeptus Sororitas, we have opened the doors for an already cool army and established a new one. I hope that even the most fanatical Sororitas-purist will realize that his army suddenly got a lot of new options.

 

Concerning the background to be included in a future SoB codex, it might be interesting to take a look at the Dark Heresy RPG, one of the expansion books (Blood of Martyrs) is about the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy.

[Azezel]

Andrew - from the information we have, work on the Sisters codex stated just afer wor on the GK codex, We don't have an exact figure, but six months is probably the outside. We don't know what work has been done on the Sisters codex, or by who, but we (think we) know that something is going on.

 

However, work on models has not begun, acording to Jes. The design team has recognised certain dificulties, and has several ideas which they wish to incorperate into a new plastic sisters range, they also learned a lot from the Dark Eldar range and believe that the sisters problems can be solved with this new knowledge. Crucially, though, they have not actually started to create the kits. At least, so far as we know.

 

 

Concerning the evolution of the SoB-OH-relation, it might be worthwhile to check out the 2004 WD article with the WH codex release notes of the designers.

 

This is translated from the German version of the text:

As soon as the design team fleshed out the madness of the Witchhunters, many dark secrets that no man should ever know, were created and revealed. With the sinister character and the task of the OH in mind, the Sisters fit splendidly as their Divisio Militaris, though we were mindful to give them their own authority beyond the Inquisition. They are still primarily controlled by the Ecclesiarchy, but since the OH watches over the the Ministorum, we decided there should be more than some small overlappings.

By connecting the OH and the Adeptus Sororitas, we have opened the doors for an already cool army and established a new one. I hope that even the most fanatical Sororitas-purist will realize that his army suddenly got a lot of new options.

 

Concerning the background to be included in a future SoB codex, it might be interesting to take a look at the Dark Heresy RPG, one of the expansion books (Blood of Martyrs) is about the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy.

 

Blood of Martyrs says little about the Ordo Hereticus, and (excepting minor details or local colour) nothing about the Sisters that has not appeared in other sources, in some form. Fantastic illustrations, though. Fantastic!

 

The article you quote seems similar to one I've encountered before from White Dwarf. It is describing why the Sisterhood and Hereticus were combined in more political terms than 'we had to to get the armies out the door on time'. Though that's what it does say if you read between the lines.

 

'we have opened the doors for an already cool army and established a new one.' Because we had to, and the only way we could manage both jobs was putting them in the same book and just scraping in before 4e...

 

It's a bit like, say, what GW did to Carnifexes. We all know they made Carnifexes less apealing becauuse every 'nid player owned one and GW wanted to sell new kits - but it's not fair to expoect a press release saying that. Instead we got a release saying how awesome the Trigon is.

 

Same deal here - GW had to combine the Sisters and Hereticus for expediency's sake - but they can't just say that - so they write the above WD article.

 

 

 

I realise that I sound very cinical and negative. Well, GW has treated my army cinically and negativelly and that rather limits the ways I can report what I know (and my theories based on what I know). I am fairly sure that a new codex and a new line of models are coming, but it's not going to be soon and pretending will only make the waiting harder.

[andrewm9]

Andrew - from the information we have, work on the Sisters codex stated just afer wor on the GK codex, We don't have an exact figure, but six months is probably the outside. We don't know what work has been done on the Sisters codex, or by who, but we (think we) know that something is going on.

 

However, work on models has not begun, acording to Jes. The design team has recognised certain dificulties, and has several ideas which they wish to incorperate into a new plastic sisters range, they also learned a lot from the Dark Eldar range and believe that the sisters problems can be solved with this new knowledge. Crucially, though, they have not actually started to create the kits. At least, so far as we know.

 

I guess syou and I have a very different interpretation about what you quoted Straightsilver on here

 

Originally Posted by StraightSilver

Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.

 

The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.

 

This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.

 

The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).

 

The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).

 

He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.

 

That seems like work started to me. Thats all I'm saying.

[Azezel]

StraightSilver's second post made things clearer (all bolding mine):

 

Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.

 

They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.

 

Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.

 

He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.

 

One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.

 

However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.

 

The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.

 

They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.

 

The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.

 

However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.

 

If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.

 

This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.

 

And Armoured wing also spoke to Jes.

 

It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.

 

So yeah... 'Initial planning' does not a plastic kit make. Particularly since that initial planing could have been anywhere up to five years ago.

 

Plastic sisters are coming, but they aren't as close as any of us would like.

 

Harry once said that the typical lead-time for a new plastic kit was 18 months. Conceivably it could happen in a year, but don't bet the farm on it - and that clock won't start ticking until after June, by the sound of it.

[Zeratil]

With regards to Soriritas and the OH, I'd always taken them the same way as Deathwatch and Grey Knights - they were their respective Ordos' chamber militants, but that didn't mean they didn't do things independently of the Inquisition.

 

However the playtest GK codex that's floating around seems to imply that now the Grey Knights are the only ordo militant, and they're the first point of call for any inquisitor if they need to drop the hammer on something. So any new Sisters codex may well see them as a totally independent body - hopefully with some more background and a nice strong Ecclesiarchy feel, rather than the ambigous 'kinda allied, kinda not' thing they've had going.

[chaplain belisarius]

very interesting thread! it sounds like something is happening but probably at the very early stage?

[Azezel]

With regards to Soriritas and the OH, I'd always taken them the same way as Deathwatch and Grey Knights - they were their respective Ordos' chamber militants, but that didn't mean they didn't do things independently of the Inquisition.

 

I couldn't say how the new 'dex will alter things, but right now, the Deathwatch and GK don't

do anything independantly of the Inquisition. The Deathwatch and GK are actually part of the Inquisition, and both are almost entirely dependant on humans to find them things to shoot.

 

(Actually, some GK players will dispute that, and cite a line in Ben counter's GK novels as proof, which is odd, since GK players generally don't like those books and regard everything else in them as inacurate...)

 

 

 

Anyway, back on this thread's topic.

 

The Hereticus would seem to be the Ordo which least requires a Chamber Militant. All Inquisitors must engage in both investigation and face breaking from time to time - but the Hereticus would seem to skew far far more to the investigation side.

 

At the worst, a Hereticus Inquisitor would typically require only a platoon of Stormtroopers to break up a particularly beligerant cult. Your typical witches, heretics or mutants simply do not have the numbers or resources to operate on the scale that reqquires an army to shut down.

 

By the time such a threat is mighty enough to engage with an army, chances are someone else (The Arbites, the Guard, the PDF, the Astartes, or most likely, the church itself) will have noticed

 

This is actually the only really good reason why the Sisterhood might serve the role of Chamber Militant. The Hereticus may in fact not be willing to support a standing army for the rare occasions that it needs one, and so is happy to let the church pay the bills and borrow the sisterhood when it really has to.

 

The Sisterhoods role as Chamber Militant would seem to be limited to a few key situations.

 

*A particularly unsubtle Inquisitor may wish to make a point, by sending a squad of Battle sisters to do a job that could be done by Stormtroopers (or perhaps, the Inquisitor simply does not have any other troops available, but can borrow some Battle sisters from any large church).

 

*An Inquisitor deems a mission to be extremely threatening in a moral or spiritual capacity and requires soldiers of unasailable faith. Hereticuus Stormtroopers will by their nature and training be highly resistant to the blandishments of your common or garden demagoguues and witches - but in some cases even they will not have the will to resist.

 

*The natuure of the site requires Power Armour. Regular troops simply cannot fight in places with corosive, toxic or absent atmospheres. Other factors may also make a place inimical to regular soldiers, but survivable for Power Armured Battle sisters.

 

* And finally, the threat is of sufficient magnitude that open war is both possible and justified, but for one or more reasons, no force besides the Inquisition has brought that war yet. It certainly does happen (the Imperium is a big place, everything happens there some time), but it's pretty rare.

 

That last bullet would likely include occasions when Astartes Chapters need to be culled. As described in rogue Trader and the Ordo Hereticus Strike force, it happens and it is often the task of the Sororitas to eradicate such chapters - few other forces have both the authority and the ability to make war on an Astartes Chapter. The Ecclesiarchy certainly does not have the authority, but the Hereticus does, and would use the sororitas for the job.

[Growler67]

The Hereticus would seem to be the Ordo which least requires a Chamber Militant. All Inquisitors must engage in both investigation and face breaking from time to time - but the Hereticus would seem to skew far far more to the investigation side.

 

At the worst, a Hereticus Inquisitor would typically require only a platoon of Stormtroopers to break up a particularly beligerant cult. Your typical witches, heretics or mutants simply do not have the numbers or resources to operate on the scale that reqquires an army to shut down.

 

I would surmize that they would indeed fit the role of a Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus specifically for these reasons. A Hereticus Lord would be responsible for discovery and identification of the heretic(s) and the SoB would be dispatched to deal with them. If, for example, the heretic and subsequent cult could be a significant if not a sizable (in numbers) threat if established on a Weapons or Munitions manufacturing Hiveworld. Dispatching an SoB force to deal with the threat would be paramount and having assets under the direct authority of the Ordos would seem most logical.

 

By the time such a threat is mighty enough to engage with an army, chances are someone else (The Arbites, the Guard, the PDF, the Astartes, or most likely, the church itself) will have noticed

 

This is actually the only really good reason why the Sisterhood might serve the role of Chamber Militant. The Hereticus may in fact not be willing to support a standing army for the rare occasions that it needs one, and so is happy to let the church pay the bills and borrow the sisterhood when it really has to.

 

The Sisterhoods role as Chamber Militant would seem to be limited to a few key situations.

 

*A particularly unsubtle Inquisitor may wish to make a point, by sending a squad of Battle sisters to do a job that could be done by Stormtroopers (or perhaps, the Inquisitor simply does not have any other troops available, but can borrow some Battle sisters from any large church).

 

*An Inquisitor deems a mission to be extremely threatening in a moral or spiritual capacity and requires soldiers of unasailable faith. Hereticuus Stormtroopers will by their nature and training be highly resistant to the blandishments of your common or garden demagoguues and witches - but in some cases even they will not have the will to resist.

 

*The natuure of the site requires Power Armour. Regular troops simply cannot fight in places with corosive, toxic or absent atmospheres. Other factors may also make a place inimical to regular soldiers, but survivable for Power Armured Battle sisters.

 

* And finally, the threat is of sufficient magnitude that open war is both possible and justified, but for one or more reasons, no force besides the Inquisition has brought that war yet. It certainly does happen (the Imperium is a big place, everything happens there some time), but it's pretty rare.

 

That last bullet would likely include occasions when Astartes Chapters need to be culled. As described in rogue Trader and the Ordo Hereticus Strike force, it happens and it is often the task of the Sororitas to eradicate such chapters - few other forces have both the authority and the ability to make war on an Astartes Chapter. The Ecclesiarchy certainly does not have the authority, but the Hereticus does, and would use the sororitas for the job.

 

PDF, IG and other indigenous forces request the aid of other Imperial assets on a regular basis (it seems). The Ordos (Malleus and Hereticus) also request assests to deal with situations that require more than they are capable of dealing with individually for a number of reasons too. The size (numbers) of the enemy would be the easiset to understand. A contingent of SoB's obviously could not deal with a Hive Fleet on their own. If the heretic they seek has enlisted the Hive via a network of Genestealers and so on the Hereticus would request diversion of Imperial assets within the sector to be able to appropriately handle the situation. Imperial Fleet, Astartes or even the inclusion of an Ordo Xenos Kill-Team and so on.

 

This isn't at all to say they couldn't manage situations on their own with assets under their direct jurisdiction. More that interaction, allies in game terms, forming a composite force is far from beoing out of the question. Surely the Inquisition does not have the same amount of resources dedicated to their logistical functionality as the Astartes ot IG for instance. They do have access to these elements but not in the same levels of demand as other Imperial Forces do. The slight exception would be the GK of the Malleus.

 

Yes, I would argue that the Hereticus has as much a legitimate need for a Chamber Militant as any other Inquisitional element. Minimizing any need for such due to exercising an option to requisition Allies doesn't fit so neatly. They would not have the same "understanding" nor "zealous" intent as a dedicated Chamber Militant could exercise on a given threat.

[andrewm9]

So yeah... 'Initial planning' does not a plastic kit make. Particularly since that initial planing could have been anywhere up to five years ago.

 

Plastic sisters are coming, but they aren't as close as any of us would like.

 

Harry once said that the typical lead-time for a new plastic kit was 18 months. Conceivably it could happen in a year, but don't bet the farm on it - and that clock won't start ticking until after June, by the sound of it.

 

Its not like I said they were coming tommorrow or something. :tu: I just said they had been started which being designed is started. I'm not sure how they can know they have problems with something if its hasn't been started. I know Jess is talented by I didn't know psychic powers were among his qualities as well. Honestly though this just provs to me that GW does want to care about Sisters if they have 1 guy slaving away on different sets of models for the same game along with possibly others. GW has used the exact same models for the army since 1997. If you never update the army in any way and lets face it they haven't since 2004 its a self fulfilling prophecy about the models not selling. The new expansions for 40K haven't seen anything in teh way of additions either. If Space Marines were treated the same way they wouldn't sell either.