Terminator Honours on DA Veterans in green companies?

[ancient god]

Hey guys,

 

I've mostly been around the Blood Angels subforum up to now, but I've recently started painting some Dark Angels for fun.

 

I have got a tactical combat squad painted and set about building the remaining five marines tonight. I glued the veteran sergeant with terminator honours on his left (chapter side) shoulder, in accordance with the Codex. But I just now came to think of the Dark Angels' whole Deathwing (company) deal and got a little confused.

 

 

So here's what I think is right and I'd ask you more knowledgeable DA veterans to correct me if I'm wrong:

 

Dark Angel marines can be inducted into one of the circles of the Deathwing (lodge). They needn't join the first company when that happens. This gives me Inner Circle veterans leading squads in the battle and reserve companies (any green marines in robes).

 

If, however, a veteran joins the Deathwing company, he will wear white TDA whenever he leaves house. Unless he, after serving with the 1st coy, rejoins one of the battle/reserve companies and becomes a squad leader (or Master). In that case he'd wear green power armour and have the right to display Terminator Honours.

 

Is that last part correct for the Dark Angels chapter?

 

Thanks for your help! :) I'm basing 5 Tacticals and a 3rd company Dreadnought right now, will post some pictures later this week.

[Brother Caedrius]

I'm not sure about the correct fluff, but for my 1st Tactical Squad, 3rd Company, a Veterans unit, each Member bore Termie Honours shoulder pad and a termie honours badge hanging from somewhere (shoulder pad, elbow, chest etcetc).

 

This I thought just brought some uniqueness to each model and made them stand out more from their other Brothers

[Bryan Blaire]

From my understanding of the fluff, it's very unlikely that a member of the Deathwing would go back to the Battle Companies as a simple Company Veteran or Veteran Sergeant, though they might as a hidden watcher if it was warranted (possibly to watch those that the Inner Circle wanted to initiate into the Deathwing, concern that a non-Inner Circle marine knows too much, etc). In this instance, they would likely not display the fact that they are ex-Deathwing.

 

If they aren't in this guise, a Deathwing member is likely only to go back to a lower company as a Company Master or a member of the Company Command Squad (the Master's own Inner Circle for the Company), and that latter option is probably not everyone's cup of tea (however, Nestor was an Apothecary and member of the Inner Circle, so presumably previously a member of the Deathwing, so I don't think this is that strange an idea).

 

The Company Veterans are what more likely would be considered the potential Deathwing Initiates, and as such, wouldn't have Terminator Honors.

 

However, if one of the Marines is inducted into the Deathwing, they are definitely joining the First Company. They could potentially join the Inner Circle without becoming Deathwing, but this is rare (hasn't happened yet in the fluff, from what I remember).

[pueriexdeus]

Historically we had a Deathwing Sgt upgrade allowed for out Vet Sgts (Squad Leaders). I don't see any reason that you couldn't apply Termi Honors to a Squad Leader.

 

It is your Army do what you want with it.

[ellis_esquire]

Great news that such a good painter is joining the Darker angelic hosts ancient god! Cant wait to see some of your work.

Id go with 'crux Terminatus' where you see fit for aesthetic purposes.

[krewl]

I've always seen the logic of including Deathwing veterans in your regular troopers as sergeants, so that your troops have someone who is aware of at least a layer of the secrets of your organisation in every location where you deploy your troops.

After all you might stumble on a hint of the fallen that needs to be passed on, or even face one (and finish the heretic) where some information leaks out into your squad.

Or your squad might question the DA marking on the black armoured marines they killed. And someone in the unit who leads them (and has a position of trust and command) would be the one to guide these questions in the correct way, mark those who handle it well for possible promotion later, and those who do not handle it well should obviously not be allowed to spread this information they gleened further........

[ancient god]

Thanks for the feedback so far, guys.

 

From my understanding of the fluff, it's very unlikely that a member of the Deathwing would go back to the Battle Companies as a simple Company Veteran or Veteran Sergeant, though they might as a hidden watcher if it was warranted (possibly to watch those that the Inner Circle wanted to initiate into the Deathwing, concern that a non-Inner Circle marine knows too much, etc). In this instance, they would likely not display the fact that they are ex-Deathwing.

 

If they aren't in this guise, a Deathwing member is likely only to go back to a lower company as a Company Master or a member of the Company Command Squad (the Master's own Inner Circle for the Company), and that latter option is probably not everyone's cup of tea (however, Nestor was an Apothecary and member of the Inner Circle, so presumably previously a member of the Deathwing, so I don't think this is that strange an idea).

 

I wondered if this interpretation is true. But I think that DA in robes are supposed to be Inner Circle, and GW has given us several veteran sergeants in robes as models. And as I do think that you're right about saying that Inner Circle members will also be Deathwing members, that tells me personally that there must be at least some exchange between the 1st and other companies.

This is true for other chapters, for educational reasons alone. I think that the DA have good reason to keep their Inner Circle tight, but they still need veterans to lead their troops.

 

What krewl said also makes a lot of sense:

 

I've always seen the logic of including Deathwing veterans in your regular troopers as sergeants, so that your troops have someone who is aware of at least a layer of the secrets of your organisation in every location where you deploy your troops.

After all you might stumble on a hint of the fallen that needs to be passed on, or even face one (and finish the heretic) where some information leaks out into your squad.

 

This would consequently mean that my veteran sergeant with TH (so inducted and trained DW) and no robes would be wrong in any case, though. I removed the Crux this morning and replaced it with a regular pauldron, just to make sure. :)

 

I like the "do what you like" approach, but I'm a kind of a fluff nut when it comes to marking my models nowadays (a year-long foray into Flames of War and other historics did that to me).

 

And EE, thanks for the welcome! :) I'm not sure how many Dark Angels I'll paint but I feel that I might be able to make them a permanent on-and-off project like my BA.

[Varizel]

Correct me if i'm wrong... but i thought the vets have red skull on their right shoulder just like the pic on "Purging of Kadillus"? As for my vets though, i used the studded shoulderpad or the shoulderpad w/ the cloth on it from the veteran sprue.

[Master Avoghai]

I totally agree with krewn's PoV and I'd like to add my 2 cents on it :

 

Vet sgt in astartes chapters in general : Actually I've always seen since v3 and maybe before, that the vet sgt wear the Crux Termintatus meaning they have been inducted into the chapter's 1st company and then detached to a tactical squad command to make their brethen profit from their reat experience.

 

DW vets vs Company vets : From what I've understood, Company vets are Company members with great skills but who are judge not strong enough to bear the Truth and joining the DW. For that reason, they'll never fight in Termi Armour and then wille never receive the TH Badge. So Company vets should not have the Crux appaering on their armour. Side note : the "Fearless" rules of the command squad tend to show that Command squad vets are different : this should be DW member in Power armour. It seems kinda normal since they'll go along with a DW member (master, Chaplain, Librarian...) for some DW special mission. For that reason I give Crux Terminatus to my command squad vets.

 

 

Vet sgt in DA : I see no reason for the point #1 not applying to DA. Moreover, as Krewl says, they can be the DW agent on the battlefield, analyzing the behavior of their brothers and reporting any info they can get... That was the reason for the DW vet sgt option in v3 codex.

However, some situations wouldn't need a DW member (a tyranid infestation or a necron apparition for ex...) And the Commander may give the leading of the squad to a company Vet rather than a DW vet.

 

In conclusion, you can give your vet sgt a Crux, meaning he's a DW agent in the squad. If you do not, it means it's just a promotion for a company vet.

The only squad where a terminator honor is a no-no is the Company vets.

 

Hope this helps

[ancient god]

That is indeed helpful, thank you!

 

Would you agree that DW membership equals robes on models, i.e. any marine in robes is DW, no matter which company he is currently in?

[brennus]

GW has flip-flopped from codex to codex on this. Or, maybe you could call it "refining" the background. Currently, you won't see a whole squad of power armored troops with terminator honors. I imagine that you could very well see them in a command squad, though - if the theme of your army warrants it. Especially if you are fielding a command squad for Azrael, as it would seem odd to me if the Supreme Grand Master were not accompanied by members of the Deathwing.

[Vodunius]

GW has flip-flopped from codex to codex on this. Or, maybe you could call it "refining" the background. Currently, you won't see a whole squad of power armored troops with terminator honors. I imagine that you could very well see them in a command squad, though - if the theme of your army warrants it. Especially if you are fielding a command squad for Azrael, as it would seem odd to me if the Supreme Grand Master were not accompanied by members of the Deathwing.

 

Depends what you mean as 'flip-flopped' - Terminator Honours used to have in-game effects until the current DA dex, however I'm 97% certain that Jervis said when the Codex came out that they decided to make it a modelling option rather than a wysiwyg issue: if you want a model to have Terminator honours then you can, and if you don't then you don't have to and aren't penalised for it.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong... but i thought the vets have red skull on their right shoulder just like the pic on "Purging of Kadillus"?

I assumed that was a command squad

[Master Avoghai]

Would you agree that DW membership equals robes on models, i.e. any marine in robes is DW, no matter which company he is currently in?

Actually company vets are not part of the DW but still wear robes

 

Crux is IMO the best way to represent a DW status since it represents the fact that the marines is able to wear a TDA.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong... but i thought the vets have red skull on their right shoulder just like the pic on "Purging of Kadillus"?

I assumed that was a command squad

 

Or just the artist who forgot to get some info about what he had to represent...

 

I remember the v3.5 chaos codex representing A thousand sons with a plasma gun or a Death guard marine with a heavy bolter... 2 weapons they can't have...

So...

[Vodunius]

Correct me if i'm wrong... but i thought the vets have red skull on their right shoulder just like the pic on "Purging of Kadillus"?

I assumed that was a command squad

Or just the artist who forgot to get some info about what he had to represent...

 

Its possible, but considering that DA Tactical, Assault & Devastator squads all use codex squad markings in red and the most common codex emblem for a command squad is a skull its pretty logical that they would use a red skull for a command squad, and since vanilla command squads are themselves company veterans it stands to reason that DA ones would be too.. hence the robe.

[ancient god]

Would you agree that DW membership equals robes on models, i.e. any marine in robes is DW, no matter which company he is currently in?

Actually company vets are not part of the DW but still wear robes

 

Good point. So there's really no conclusive, right way to mark Deathwing in PA, is there. There are a some indicators (like Terminator Honours (100% DW) or robes (might be DW, might not be) but no set way of doing it.

[EPK]

b]DW vets vs Company vets :[/b] From what I've understood, Company vets are Company members with great skills but who are judge not strong enough to bear the Truth and joining the DW. For that reason, they'll never fight in Termi Armour and then wille never receive the TH Badge. So Company vets should not have the Crux appaering on their armour. Side note : the "Fearless" rules of the command squad tend to show that Command squad vets are different : this should be DW member in Power armour. It seems kinda normal since they'll go along with a DW member (master, Chaplain, Librarian...) for some DW special mission. For that reason I give Crux Terminatus to my command squad vets.

 

The only squad where a terminator honor is a no-no is the Company vets.

 

This is a lot to just assume - how did you reach such a conclusion? Were they explained in past codex iterations as I do not see an explanation of what a Company Vet even is the current dex.

 

I like the explanation though.

[Mentat]

I am building a veteran squad n robes and I would like to get it right fluff-wise.

 

After reading this thread, I read through my 3rd edition and 4th edition codecii last night to see what I could find, and wasn't able to come to a conclusion. Some SGTs wear robes, some don't. In 3rd edition, vet sgts had terminator honors. You could pay extra to make them Deathwing and therefore stubborn. Naaman was a veteran sgt of scouts, and was a member of Deathwing. None of the veterans that I saw in the 3rd edition codex had a crux terminatus on their power armor.

 

I have a 2nd edition (Angels of Death) codex on the way in the mail from an ebay auction. When I get it I will try to go through all 3 books and post the information I find about Deathwing/veterans/etc.

[Bryan Blaire]

I need to actually go back on some of my previous comments:

 

I think you could go either way on a Vet. Sergeant being a former Deathwing member, as the 3rd Ed DA Codex (as others have already said) allowed you to specify if your Veteran Sergeants had previously been Deathwing. The current codex specifies that the Veteran Sergeants may go on to higher rank, but that most are more valuable as line leaders and so won't advance. This seems to imply that none of the current codex Veteran Sergeants are Deathwing members. However, the 3rd Ed Codex also specified that Veteran Sergeants had Terminator Honors, even if they are not made into Deathwing.

 

With regards to the Company Veterans, the current codex does specify that a few of the normal company Marines will gain experience and become Company Veterans, and that even fewer become Veteran Sergeants. It then goes on to specify that they may rise in rank by being advanced to the Deathwing. This implies that being a Company Veteran or Veteran Sergeant specifically means the Marine is not a Deathwing member or former Deathwing member.

 

With regards to the robes, personally, I think you can sprinkle them in as liberally or as restricted as you want. In the new codex, the army they show seems to have regular Marines, Veteran Marines, Command Squad members, and Inner Circle members all wearing them.

[EPK]

With regards to the Company Veterans, the current codex does specify that a few of the normal company Marines will gain experience and become Company Veterans, and that even fewer become Veteran Sergeants. It then goes on to specify that they may rise in rank by being advanced to the Deathwing. This implies that being a Company Veteran or Veteran Sergeant specifically means the Marine is not a Deathwing member or former Deathwing member.

 

A ha, I missed that bit under "Dark Angels Space Marines" (page 24 if anyone needs to look). And here I always just assumed Company Vets would be better than the average Vet Sergeant along the lines of other chapter's 1st Company Sternguard.

 

So Company Vets could be more or less on par with a combat squad leaders? Veterans without command of an actual squad. Do you think their creation is more of just a game mechanic thing to have an elite power armor unit? In "real life", it seems more practical to just spread them throughout the the company's squads as "corporals" in a sense until it's their time to ascend to a sergeant role. I'm sure their is an argument for their being, the thought just popped into me head - perhaps simply for a more elite and specialized missions?

[Bryan Blaire]

I prefer to just look at them as those company members that are being looked at as initiates into the Deathwing.

[Vodunius]

Do you think their creation is more of just a game mechanic thing to have an elite power armor unit? In "real life", it seems more practical to just spread them throughout the the company's squads as "corporals" in a sense until it's their time to ascend to a sergeant role.

 

Vanilla command squads are an ad-hoc formation formed from company veterans based on the company captains whim - I've always figured the same applied to the DA company veteran squads: Captain X may prefer to deploy his veterans as squad leaders whilst Captain Y may prefer to group them into their own squads. Both have their merits.

[Darzhul]

With regards to the Company Veterans, the current codex does specify that a few of the normal company Marines will gain experience and become Company Veterans, and that even fewer become Veteran Sergeants. It then goes on to specify that they may rise in rank by being advanced to the Deathwing. This implies that being a Company Veteran or Veteran Sergeant specifically means the Marine is not a Deathwing member or former Deathwing member.

 

A ha, I missed that bit under "Dark Angels Space Marines" (page 24 if anyone needs to look). And here I always just assumed Company Vets would be better than the average Vet Sergeant along the lines of other chapter's 1st Company Sternguard.

 

So Company Vets could be more or less on par with a combat squad leaders? Veterans without command of an actual squad. Do you think their creation is more of just a game mechanic thing to have an elite power armor unit? In "real life", it seems more practical to just spread them throughout the the company's squads as "corporals" in a sense until it's their time to ascend to a sergeant role. I'm sure their is an argument for their being, the thought just popped into me head - perhaps simply for a more elite and specialized missions?

 

 

The way I have viewed the company vets is they are battle-hardened marines with many years of combat experience under them that either are in their final steps to becoming Deathwing or have been judged unfit to join the Deathwing. They also either don't have or want the leadership experience to be Sergeants or are lacking that capability. Basically they are marines on the cusp of advancement into the higher ranks of the DA or have been found lacking in some way but are still highly valued for their combat experience. If it wasn't for the fall and if the DA followed the Codex in their 1st Company organization I think many would be either in the Sternguard, Vanguard or in TDA or next inline to join the codex compliant 1st Company.

[Brother Styphus]

Back when the codex was thin and intractable, I had a sergeant upgraded to Deathwing. I dislike the Deathwing background story, I so painted the model in the traditional black. My painting skills were lacking back then, but the black made the characters stand out in the army.

[EPK]

Thanks for the insight guys.

 

So if we were to use this old reference (I know it's probably somewhat out of date) -

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pbFJndlkB6o/TH9O...ace+Marines.jpg

 

A Company Veteran would be on par with what was once called a "Trooper Veteran".

[Master Avoghai]

b]DW vets vs Company vets :[/b] From what I've understood, Company vets are Company members with great skills but who are judge not strong enough to bear the Truth and joining the DW. For that reason, they'll never fight in Termi Armour and then wille never receive the TH Badge. So Company vets should not have the Crux appaering on their armour. Side note : the "Fearless" rules of the command squad tend to show that Command squad vets are different : this should be DW member in Power armour. It seems kinda normal since they'll go along with a DW member (master, Chaplain, Librarian...) for some DW special mission. For that reason I give Crux Terminatus to my command squad vets.

 

The only squad where a terminator honor is a no-no is the Company vets.

 

This is a lot to just assume - how did you reach such a conclusion? Were they explained in past codex iterations as I do not see an explanation of what a Company Vet even is the current dex.

 

I like the explanation though.

 

The Company veterans entry is a new creation of the v4 codex, so you won't find any explanation in the previous codex.

 

But the deduction is simple : in every chapter of the Astartes, once a marine is inducted into the vetrean status he leaves his company for the 1st company where he joins other veterans to form a squad able to fight in PA or TDA. This squad may then fight along with the Combat companies and the veteran marines all receive the TH. Some of them may become a vet sgt and lead a squad in a combat company where they are assigned for a campaign/battle/whaterver occasion.

 

This work the same for the DA. A skilled and experience tactical/assault/devastator marine may receive the honour to fight in the 1st company... BUT in addition to his combat skills, a DA vet should be judged strong enough to bear the truth about the chapter by the chaplains and the librarians (and maybe the DW vet sgt who leads his squad).

Company vets are as their name says itself : Vets from a combat company. They are NOT members of the 1st company assigned in a combat company. They BELONG to the combat company.

As a consequence : they never fight in TDA and therefore don't receive the TH.

since it's not their combat skills that prevent them from being inducted (since they are "veterans"), we can assume that it's their capacity to bear the truth that made the difference.

 

At least what I can imagine is that the Sgt of the company vet squad is a member of the DW (and wear a TH) and is here to judge the evolution of a vet and tell the chappy : "ok I feel this guy is now strong enough to bear the truth"