The Celestial Dragons

[Aegnor]

Ok, further new artwork. Just some playing around I've done quickly on Paper Artist. I like it. :)

[Messor]

Nice, it makes that strong green a little easier on the eyes(appropriate, though).

[Octavulg]

The Celestial Dragons Chapter was created as part of the Fifth Founding in the mid-M32 period.

The Fifth Founding is unlikely to be in mid-M32. See here for details. I'd just stick them in with the Astropath Wars founding.

 

I'd recommend shortening the Schism with Ultramar section and putting it in a sidebar in the Combat Doctrine section. Or just calling it "Organization".

 

Likewise, the Recruitment section would work fine as part of Gene-seed.

 

* * *

 

Are you trying for actual imperial China or a highly-idealized version? At the moment it's not feeling very grimdark.

 

I feel like you need to focus your writing more, but I'm not sure what you're trying to get across so I'm not sure which way to point you. What do you want out of the chapter? What themes do you want to convey? Interesting things you want to make sure get brought up? That sort of thing.

[Aegnor]

Thanks for responses. Am at work so will have a good look over the weekend. But briefly, yeah without (hopefully) being Mary Sues, these guys are definitely meant to be down the Ultramarine "not-so-Grimdark" end of the 40k spectrum. They're pretty ruthless to enemies - maybe I should show some examples of where their pride/inflexibility has led them to be ruthless?

 

I'm aiming at an idealised Imperial China theme to the extent the UMs are idealised Romans. Don't want to overtheme, but you feel it needs more?

[Octavulg]

The Ultramarines are plenty grimdark, if you look past the "OMG SO AWESOME!" in the codices. Nice words are thrown around, but Macragge's still a military dictatorship where everyone everyone's in a "brutal" military barracks until they're thirty and the adjective "well-ordered" is thrown around like it's going out of style. That's...not exactly cheerful.

 

Your version, IMO, feels a bit nicer than actual Imperial China (you're short on corruption, for one). As to the Marines themselves...I'd lean a bit more on the arrogance angle. There's a lot of mileage in the arrogance of Imperial China. You could also try adding some decadence - imperial courts are fun, and some level of that amongst the chapter leadership would be fun, too.

 

Basically, I'd have them be a bit more "fading glory" and a little less awesome right now.

 

I'll go over the thing in some detail tomorrow or the day after and see if I can provide some more detailed feedback - there's some stuff I noticed that's independent of what feel you're after, if nothing else.

[Aegnor]

Hmm, arrogance definitely, decadence not so much. Or maybe not for the chapter - the planet populace maybe, to be smashed by the chapter whenever they find it.

 

Could also play up the aspect of their stratified society a bit more as well. Have castes (determined by "merit" at an early age) which dictates and pigeon holes your whole live. Kinda like the movie Gattaca, but with how well you did at exams at the age of 11 instead of "genetic potential".

 

Octavulg - thanks for the steer on Founding dates. I thought I had used a guide from the DIY resources link, but will amend it to early M33 and keep it with the 5th for now. Will try to find out what the Astropath war was and if its interesting/fitting, might switch to the 4th.

 

EDIT 2: so the Astropath Wars exist only as a single line entry in both the 5th and 6th Ed BRB. Hmm, guess I could reference it...

[Octavulg]

Having some rebellion lead by an insane messianic figure who failed his bureacratic exams and claims to be the brother of the Emperor might be fun for a sidebar.

[Gripharius]

I like the early-age testing and development programs you've created for your recruits.  It goes very well with the scholarly-thoughtful-warrior theme in your Chapter.  I agree on the "not-so-grimdark" comment -- Tian in particular seems too perfect for the 40k-verse.  While I understand you are going for an idealized Imperial China, I think you have to temper the idealism with the grimdark reality, even if it is just through hints of a seedy underbelly or the flakes of hidden corruption. 

[Messor]

I like the early-age testing and development programs you've created for your recruits.  It goes very well with the scholarly-thoughtful-warrior theme in your Chapter.  I agree on the "not-so-grimdark" comment -- Tian in particular seems too perfect for the 40k-verse.  While I understand you are going for an idealized Imperial China, I think you have to temper the idealism with the grimdark reality, even if it is just through hints of a seedy underbelly or the flakes of hidden corruption.

In which case, I would recommend the seedy underbelly tack. If its a world that experiences plenty of commerce, despite efforts to expunge exterior cultures, that sort of 'underground' is bound to form, if only for things like smuggling. Could be interesting with a marine or two rumored to have come a dark background like that, but nothing to confirm it.

[Aegnor]

That's a really cool idea. Could actually go a whole Opium Wars kind of thing with obscura or lho sticks. :)

 

Thanks guys.

[NightrawenII]

Hmm, arrogance definitely, decadence not so much.

Really? The teachings of Confucius didn't work for your model, the imperial China. What makes you believe it will work this time?

 

Edit:

After some pondering, I think you could adopt a mishmash of foederati policy of late roman empire and rise&fall of dynasties through the Chinese history.

 

Basically, the CD adopt Tian as their homeworld, but because of its peaceful culture, they are looking for recruits elsewhere. (Un)fortunately the continual influence of Chapter turns the planet(s) in question into carbon copy of Tian and Marines are forced to move on. However, because of wealth, peace and comfort the citizens of this abandoned planet become corrupt and decadent and descend into anarchy. So, the next time a Chapter visits this planet, it finds a world embroiled in barbarism and strife, with petty warlords vying for power. Of course, because the CD are so goody two-shoes they will embark on task to re-teach these fools what is good for them.... rinse and repeat.

 

As for the Tian, make it overrun by Orks, after all ancient China was conquered by the foreign invaders numerous times.

[Aegnor]

You make a good point, although whether it "didn't work" for China is debatable and probably beyond the scope of the Liber to get into the nitty gritty of. :) Certainly agree ancient China was no utopia, but they were also no failed state.

 

That said, I agree there would be some real issues created by the way of live on Tian and am playing around with some ideas to flesh that out.

 

Like your idea about moving from planet to planet, however it's probably a bit too far away from where I wanted to take the Dragons. Will think about it, but might try to flesh out and improve some of the concepts while injecting a bit more grit and points of interest.

[NightrawenII]

Or better yet.

The CD are preaching and establishing the just and righteous governments, only for such planets to fall prey to the predations of Chaos left, right and center. Of course, the Imperium is mildly annoyed by such turn of events.

Meanwhile, you could hint at how the Tian is not technicolour rainbow paradise like the CD claim (or believe ), but in fact oppressive regimen, where citizens are monitored 24/7 and even the slightest crime sends entire family of offender to work camp for *re-education*.

Basically, something akin Qin dynasty of China or bakufu of Tokugawa.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, thinking of playing up some of the bakufu like elements of their rule, inc some campaigns against sources of "foreign corruption".

[Octavulg]

The Celestial Dragons stand proudly among the champions of the Imperium, respected for their heroic achievements in helping to protect and strengthen humanity. Hailing from bright Tian, they are the heirs to a culture and a philosophy that has lasted millennia – predating the Imperium itself. Like the domain of their estranged forebears, the Ultramarines, their homeworld is an orderly, thriving realm where, in contrast to so much of the Imperium, humanity flourishes – the envy of planetary governors in their sector.

They are a host of warriors who are fiercely proud, to the point of arrogance, of their homeworld and heritage, and of their achievements in the name of the Emperor. Faced with the ever-encroaching perils threatening to extinguish mankind from the stars, they remain resolute in their belief that by the force of their arms, and the virtue of their wisdom, they can ultimately not only preserve, but help improve the Imperium and lead their species into a new golden age.

These little intro things work better when they're short - maybe a paragraph. You could cut it back to something like:

"The Celestial Dragons stand proudly among the champions of the Imperium. Hailing from bright Tian, they are the heirs to a culture and a philosophy that predates the Imperium itself. Like their estranged forebears, the Ultramarines, their domain is an orderly, thriving realm where humanity flourishes – the envy of planetary governors in their sector. Proud to the point of arrogance of their homeworld and heritage, they remain resolute that by the force of their arms and the virtue of their wisdom, they can bring the Imperium and humanity into a new golden age."

Little is cut, but I think the theme's a bit more concentrated and there's less redundancy.

Origins

The Celestial Dragons Chapter was created as part of the Fifth Founding early in M33. period. Still striving to restore the numbers of marines who had helped establish the Imperium prior to the Great Heresy, the High Lords of Terra had wanted to reinforce the Vinck sector in Segmentum Ultima, which was suffering increasing intrusions by xenos greenskin and piratical elder. Tian, as one of the 500 worlds of the pre-Heresy Ultramar, was chosen at the request of the Ultramarines who had been selected to stand up and train the new chapter.

Period?

Vinck is a silly name. Also, I'd find it strange if Ultramar was one of the more vulnerable places in the post-Heresy Imperium. The Ultramarines seem to have been well-distributed within it.

Homeworld

Two words, not one.

The first Imperial contact with Tian occurred in the later stages of the Great Crusade when a detachment from the Ultramarines Legion found a well-ordered, densely populated planet, with a government that exerted control of the majority of the world and claimed to date, as an institution, back several thousands of years prior to the Age of Strife. Tian possessed a level of industrial and technological expertise, but was not an industrialised wasteland – rather, the planet retained an abnormally fertile environment that fairly teemed with life and agriculture, which thrived alongside the well-planned and administered developed areas.

First, the way you express this makes it sound too good to be true. Second, I think if there's one thing that modern history has taught us, it's that China isn't exactly nice to the environment all the time.

I'd go with something like:

"Imperial contact with Tian first occurred in the later stages of the Great Crusade, when a detachment of Ultramarines found a well-ordered, densely populated planet. Its government claimed a glorious history stretching back beyond the Age of Strife. Though the planet was industrialized, it was not a wasteland - dense factory-cities were surrounded by expanses of well-organized fields and forests, and while the rivers of the larger industrial cities were hardly pure, Tian was still a jewel compared with many of the industrialised wastelands found elsewhere in the Imperium."

Tian was adopted into the burgeoning Ultramar by the Ultramarines. Contact was lost during the upheaval of the Horus Heresy, and in the aftermath Ultramar itself redefined to the much smaller group of systems that would be overseen by the Ultramarines chapter. Tian continued on under direct Imperial control, but was not forgotten by the Ultramarines. When the chance came to re-establish a connection with the planet, whose culture and government they had admired, the Ultramarines were quick to suggest it as a base for the new chapter.

I'd cut the middle bit - all you really need is: "Tian was adopted into the burgeoning Ultramar, becoming part of the larger Imperium in the reforms that followed the Horus Heresy. When the chance came to re-establish a connection with the planet, whose culture and government they had admired, the Ultramarines were quick to suggest it as a base for the new chapter."

Though I'm not sure the Ultramarines would admire it that much. Leaving aside the bit where neither Greeks nor Romans were that impressed by outsiders, a bunch of semi-effete bureaucrats are pretty much the antithesis of a bunch of space Spartans. They might admire the orderliness, but the government itself seems less likely.

This might be even more practical: "Tian was adopted into the burgeoning Ultramar, becoming part of the larger Imperium in the reforms that followed the Horus Heresy. Its connection with the Ultramarines was noted when the time came for the Xth Founding, and Tian was soon the home of a new successor chapter."

In the 41st millennium, Tian is a bright jewel within the Imperium. It boasts efficient, profitable industry, but also remains self-sufficient for foodstuffs. It’s people live with a degree of dignity and common purpose rarely found in the Imperium, under the strong leadership provided by the Dragons.

Eh. Not worth it unless you have more to say.

The beliefs and traditions of the Celestial Dragons are closely derived from the ancient culture of Tian. Moreover, the presence of the Dragons has altered the beliefs of the planet, and the two are now inseparably intertwined.

I didn't really see much evidence to support the second sentence on my read through. I'd cut it.

The rulers of Tian ascribed their regime’s extraordinary durability, and their world’s prosperity their ancient philosophy of Dar-Sheng, which has as its guiding principles the concept of filial piety and the belief that humanity can be improved through study and instruction. These meritocratic ideas had led to a system of government by those who had shown themselves most competent, a strong respect by those in government for the needs and welfare of the people, and strong unity in the populace. Under this philosophy, the planet had readily accepted the Emperor as the ultimate father of humanity, to whom they owed their loyalty. The Celestial Dragons retain this philosophy and have become its greatest exemplars.

"Dar" felt weird when I read it. Sheng is fine, but Dar was just jarring.

How the hell is filial piety meritocratic? Also, you might want to remind us that "most competent" is defined as "best at poetry". I'd just de-emphasise the whole "meritocratic" angle. Most governments see themselves as meritocratic - it's just what's defined as "merit".

Recruitment

Just put this in Gene-seed, which needs the padding.

History

Don't know that this matters - turn it into sidebars, or don't worry about it.

* * *

Basically, you need to smooth out your writing somewhat. Read things aloud, try to make them flow better, etc. Referencing other aspects of Chinese culture might be good (as mentioned) - among other things, the various colonial wars might be interesting. References to bureaucratic corruption, bandit gangs, smugglers, big empty chunks of the planet, other minor countries that the Tianese government dismisses as unimportant, highly limited trade with the outside, etc...

[Aegnor]

Ok, made some changes to reflect some of the excellent feedback that's been provided - including some of the very good edits suggested by Octavulg. Also added a few new bits throughout, but mainly in two new sections "Reign of Blood" and "The Enforced Isolation of Tian", to get across the point that the Dragons aren't all sweetness and light, and that while they definitely have a humane side, it's tempered by a paranoid mania about controlling and guiding the lives of the people of Tian, and to a degree anyone else they encounter in the Imperium.  Hopefully this draws out, and makes their character a bit more interesting while also steering them clear of being boring goody-two-shoes/Mary Sues.

 

Thanks for all the help and suggestions so far guys, it has been excellent.  Hope this continues to be interesting and will certainly continue to welcom and value any feedback.

 

One thing I do need to do is have a look at the formatting of the post. The suggestion to put some of the sections in as sidebars was made before and it's a good idea. I'll need to go back and reacquaint myself with how to do so, and will hopefully get the chance to make it a bit more visually appealing soon.

 

Thanks again all.

[NightrawenII]

Well...

 

Unlike some chapters, they are strongly interested in how those they protect live their lifes, and strive to inculcate what they consider to be positive values into those populations. This includes at times correcting those acting against what they see as the common good of mankind. Under Kar-Sheng, those failing to meet their their obligations require firm but patient correction and instruction. Those who persist in failing must be excised for the overall good of the community.

~ This should bring them in conflict with Administratum, since you are trespassing on their turf.

 

The Reign of Blood - Fine story, except the end-result is the norm. Really, the Ministorum and Astartes are wary allies partners out of convenience
rather than anything else. Also, there is evidence that missionaries have forbidden access to Astartes homeworlds by default. All in all, it doesn't add anything unusual. (Btw, the first homeworld of Fire Hawks got nuked because of their participation in the wars of Apostasy. Vandire was madman, capable of anything.)

 

 

This has included the Ecclesiarchy, the Inquisition as as much as possible, as well as the Administratum, traders and other agents of cultural 'impurity'.

~ For Ecclesiarchy see above. The Astartes homeworld is subject of Aptus Non; no tithe. So I'm not sure what would be Administratum doing here.

 

+*+*+*+

 

I'm not sure whether it's intentional or not, but CD are shoulder-deep in hypocrisy. Their belief in study and improvement is in contrast with their rejection of anything non-tianese.
I think, while the belief section attempts to adhere to the notion of advancement, the Chapter, in fact, subscribes to traditionalist conservatism.

 

 

~NightrawenII

[Aegnor]

Their prejudice (and attendant hypocrisy) is intentional. As was pointed out in previous feedback, if they were NOT hypocrites that would make them pretty odd in a 40K context. All the factions and elements contain unreasonable prejudices and hypocrisies.

 

I'm confused about your feedback regarding the Administratum. On one hand you say them interfering with how their people live their lifes will cause conflict with the Administratum. On the other, you highlight that Astartes homeworlds are exempt from Administratum control.

 

Regarding the end result of the Reign of Blood episode, I see them as being more hostile to the Ecclesiarchy than the norm. I'd have thought most chapters held attitudes of contempt, which they would conceal or not depending on their character. The Dragons are actively hostile to the faith, openly persecuting those who practice it, refusing to allow them even approach their planet, to the point that SoB etc refuse to fight alongside them. They are generally too busy fighting real enemies to do much about it outside their own homeworld, but they loathe the faith. It probably isn't unique, but the point is mostly to demonstrate their hostility and suspicion of outside influences. Does that make sense?

[NightrawenII]

I'm confused about your feedback regarding the Administratum. On one hand you say them interfering with how their people live their lifes will cause conflict with the Administratum. On the other, you highlight that Astartes homeworlds are exempt from Administratum control.

 

Regarding the end result of the Reign of Blood episode, I see them as being more hostile to the Ecclesiarchy than the norm. I'd have thought most chapters held attitudes of contempt, which they would conceal or not depending on their character. The Dragons are actively hostile to the faith, openly persecuting those who practice it, refusing to allow them even approach their planet, to the point that SoB etc refuse to fight alongside them. They are generally too busy fighting real enemies to do much about it outside their own homeworld, but they loathe the faith. It probably isn't unique, but the point is mostly to demonstrate their hostility and suspicion of outside influences. Does that make sense?

The Celestial Dragons looks to me as guys who would go around and preach their superior doctrine to others, which means they will interfere with how the Administratum handle things elsewhere. After all, the Space Marines interact with the Imperium.

 

The Dragons are actively hostile to the faith, openly persecuting those who practice it, refusing to allow them even approach their planet, to the point that SoB etc refuse to fight alongside them.

The point is you cannot.

The truce between the Ministorum and Astartes says "Mind. Your. Own. Business.". If you keep it to your homeworld then everything is fine. Heck, the Space Wolves are suspected of pagany. But any step beyond will result in the Ministorum *bothering* the Chapter and keep in mind that Ecclesiarchy is the second most powerful organisation in Imperium and it has already demonstrated ability to declare a Chapter Excommunicatus with all the fatal results.

 

 

~ NightrawenII.

[blackoption]

There is a precident for not allowing Ministorum elements on a chapter homeworld, but I have to agree with Nightrawen on persecuting those who practice the faith would be a bit too extreme. I've gotten around this by saying my chapter won't fight with forces of the Ministorium (being sisters or faternis militia zealots) and have even withdrawn from campaigns that have been declare to be a wars of faith.

[Aegnor]

So maybe keep it to the active persecution of the faithful on Tian, and a refusal to come to the aid of Ministorium interests off world (eg declining to respond to requests for aid from a shrine world under attack because they don't consider it valuable)? Was thinking that I could have a shrine world nearby and the Dragons refuse to do anything to protect it or facilitate pilgrims travelling there.

 

@ Nightrawen - gotcha regarding the Administratum, had missed the distinction you were drawing between their actions on Tian as opposed to offworld.

[blackoption]

I think that is more manageable. The cardinals would probably be in uproar about their shrine world or the safety of their pilgrims. The Ministorium tends to lash out at anyone who doesn't walk the party line of sacrificing everything just to save the church. It sounds like your chapter has a similarly poor relationship with the Ministorium as mine do.

 

Collaboration question: Would you be willing to have a cross chapter event? Something where both of our chapters meet?

[NightrawenII]

It depends...

Defending church interests with weapons in hands is generally purpose of Adepta Sororitas. Also, keep in mind the animosity is two-way. The Ecclesiarchy respect Astartes for their martial prowes and genetic link to the Emperor, but that's all.