prenelf Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 im just wondering if the and flamer is worth it? i dont know if i want to use it that much because of it been strength 3. have ye had good experiences with it in games? if so please do tell im kind of on the wire with this one i do love flamers i find them very handy but it been so weak is a big downside to me needing 5+ to wound a lot of armys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 No. It's a sad state of affairs. Paying 5 more points for a *worse* flamer and an extra cc attack. No thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Unless you regularly encounter groups of tightly bunched T3 models I'd not bother with the hand flamer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
prenelf Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 i had a feeling that it wouldnt work very well i would take it every time if it was str 4 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpWalker Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 It still uses the flame template. Those are automatic hits. I'd rather roll 3 or 4 wounds than roll to hit and wound against one average model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 well its better than a bolt pistol(well cept against hings it literally cant hurt) i have one on one of my sarges and was able to kill a couple of chaos marines with it in one shot... i think i would only ever use it on ras vet sarges if you have points left over at the very end even after buying meltabombs... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Its good for assaulting a breached bunker or troops behind cover. But i take flamers for toasting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 i have one on one of my sarges and was able to kill a couple of chaos marines with it in one shot. Mathematically speaking though, that's a freak occurrence. To get two unsaved wounds on a CSM from a S3 weapon you'd need to have 18 CSM under the template on average! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 well when chaos bunch up and you can hit most of squad with 3 flamers and the normal flamers do crap the handflamer should do something to make up for it... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
prenelf Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 i would use one if i had extra points left over but i think i could find better uses for the points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Its not a bad item. I occasionally give sergeants hand flamers if I have points left over. But never on a regular guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 the biggest problem is the point cost. for 5 points they would be sweet, but 10 points makes them way too costly. I used to run them on all my sergeants, but they never made up for the points spent on them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
prenelf Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 yeah maybe if it was only 5 points in cost or this seems odd but if it was assault 2 though that might be OP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Same price as a combi weapon, well most of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yes it bloody is!!! Last game, deep striking assault squad flamer-ed and hand flamer-ed a squad of sternguard...hand flamer killed 3 marines on its own....paid for its points and then some! Extra templates, extra armour pushes sooo worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
prenelf Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yes it bloody is!!! Last game, deep striking assault squad flamer-ed and hand flamer-ed a squad of sternguard...hand flamer killed 3 marines on its own....paid for its points and then some! Extra templates, extra armour pushes sooo worth it. it may have worked that time but the chance of you getting 5+ then the other player getting 1's and 2's is very small i will use it some times but not very often Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 remember its template size...on average i get about 3-5 marines...and usually wound 2 of them ( not math-hammer just experience ) and sometimes armour saves are failed sometimes they are not...the point is you are making the opponent take armour saves...aka pushing the armour, thats the entire point of flamers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrostb Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 You should never take it for a regular marine. Rather a flamer and less CC attacks. The sergeant however... I've fielded it quite a few times and I like it. It's definitely better against some enemies than others but my hand flamers absolutely saved the day in a battle against orks. I usually have 10 man assault squads tooled up and with a sanguinary priest. It's a very strong unit in CC but against 30 orks it can easily lose the combat if you don't kill enough because of fearless. They don't need a lot of orcs left because the nob with a fist routinely drops two marines. Once the extra attacks for assaulting are gone together with losing furious charge and getting a few casualties, you will lose punch fast, and risk getting stuck in combat. In my experience, the hand flamer can often kill just the guys you need to tip the scale. Usually the orcs don't have room to spread out so getting seven or eight hits is not unusual. Even against marines it's solid. On average you need nine hits to cause an unsaved wound, which you will probably get if you assault two different units during the game. Each shot from a bolt pistol will kill 1/9 of a marine on average, a ridiculosly low number. If we estimate two shooting phases during the game (which is conservative) the hand flamer kills 7/9 of a marine more than a bolt pistol. That's the cost, right there. The alternatives are a plasma pistol, which is more expensive, insufficient for reliable tankbusting and insta-kills and risks dropping the sergeant and his fist (which I always use). The inferno pistol kills 5/9 marines per shooting fase which is more or less the same as the hand flamer. It is more expensive but has some obvious perks that the hand flamer lacks. Going against mech or marines in general the inferno pistol is probably better. Going against horde armies the hand flamer is probably better. Remember that the inferno pistol is only in melta range within 3" where the hand flamer is effective from 4"-8". All this is based on 10 (11) man squads with feel no pain and jump packs. That is a very resilient squad, meaning that your sergeant will survive most of the battle. The jump packs help ensure optimal template placement (but could obviously help getting you within the inferno pistols melta range as well). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
prenelf Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 @afrostb you make very good points i think i will try it out a few times and see how it goes. thank you everyone all the points ye make are very helpful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbb Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 i use a hand flamer on my reclusiarch every game. in the last game i played it accounted for two wolf guard terminators and a greay hunter marine. point is.... it more than payed for itself. the good thing about flamer templates in general is that it forces your opponent to make saves. eventually he is going to fail some of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
prenelf Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 im really starting to change my mind about ti now :P i think i will put it on my chappy i normaly give him a storm bolter but hes going to be with death company so the flamer would be better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zid Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 its teh suck Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 It's a toss up between them and infernus pistols for sargeants. Generally infernus pistols are better because normal assault marines chew up what the hand flamer is good against. But if you're really packing the AT firepower and can spare the points they don't hurt, given RAS can't take combiweapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Theseus Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I think the hand flamer is well worth the points. I have one for my vanguard vet squad that only has 5 members in it. Going up against the horde army tyranids, I was going into assault against squads of 18 or so hormagaunts. No matter how you cut it, as is they'll have more attacks on me plus a higher initiative. So this one game I moved my vanguard vets into position for assault, shot the hand flamer, and killed nearly half of the gaunt squad before my assault phase. The guants are toughness 3 and armor 6. So I needed a 4+ to wound, and it ignores their puny armor save. I drastically reduced the number of attacks they would retaliate with in CQC. As a marine player, large numbers like this are your worse fears. It doesn't matter that your opponent has very low strength, as long as they have 20+ attacks on your small elite squads, they'll make 5 or so of those 5+ rolls, at which time there's a good chance you slip up your armor save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 As I said earlier, if you regularly face large numbers of tightly packed T3 opponents then it's good. Against tougher opponents, for every tale of "Mine killed 12 marines in one shot" I guarantee there will be dozens of tales of "I fired it and it did sweet f all". So this one game I moved my vanguard vets into position for assault, shot the hand flamer, and killed nearly half of the gaunt squad before my assault phase. My only question here is, how the hell did the 'Nid player manage to take so many casualties and still have models in your assault range? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222575-hand-flamer/#findComment-2661999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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