Brother Nathan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Failings? Of the Emperors First and Finest Legion? Cypher says otherwise... least thats what our wolf cousins told us... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2666733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Also bear in mind that falling to chaos can be a step by step process. Huron's band didn't start out as chaos worshippers and the Lamenters almost ended up following the path that led to chaos. A force of BA or later founding Marines could end up on the wrong side of the Imperium, declared excommunicate and have nowhere left to go other than chaos. A step by step fall, hell they could even be hounded into the embrace of chaos by the Imperium's heavy handed reaction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2666842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 sure they could possibly that way, but how likely is that, and that would in all likelyhood have the same effect against prettymuch any chapter. although then again the legion of the dammed do pretty well... so imagine the chapter reminants acting more like the sanguinator... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2666871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 sure they could possibly that way, but how likely is that, and that would in all likelyhood have the same effect against prettymuch any chapter. although then again the legion of the dammed do pretty well... so imagine the chapter reminants acting more like the sanguinator... Nobody's suggesting that BA turn every month. However it's untrue to say they can NEVER turn. If individuals want to do a chaos BA force in 40k the fluff does not prohibit it. It's very rare for ANY loyalist marines to turn, the vast majority of Chaos warands are splinter groups from the original traitor legions anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2666999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 i did say that, that was a reply to the whole chapter turning... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The very existence of Mephiston and the Blood Angels creates doubt in any creature that worships the dark gods. Chaos see what Mephiston is and wonder how anything so awesome could not be chaos. Chaos would look at rage as a gift they wonder how Blood Angel rage can be managed if not controlled. Mephiston has made the eldar look within themselves too, they do not even understand how Mephiston can be human. After 10,000 years you would think that those that turned would have by now. I give chaos a big fail as far as turning Blood Angels go. The worst that happens to a Blood Angel (and anything near them) is they don't know when to stop fighting. When you consider how many lives the golden throne consumes daily the collateral deaths when BA sucumb to rage in war zones are small change. In defence of Blood Angels unlike other chapters Blood Angels are self aware of the effects of rage and deal with it. The Blood Angel rage has never developed beyond an agressive combat embracing form of shellshock. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dremen Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Cypher says otherwise... least thats what our wolf cousins told us... You'd trust the word of a traitor over a righteous servant of The Emperor? You admit to freely consorting with traitors and heretics?! Your Heresy is plain to see. As for the sons of Russ... what are they if not mangy half-feral squatlings more interested in drink and mirth than in fighting the forces that assail the Imperium? From what I've read Mestiphon was able to controll the Rage by immense force of will. Kinda like a smoker going cold turkey. (excuse the reference, just a comparison) So that could be tied to his warp-spawned abilities or in something in his blood that allowed him to overcome the flaw. I would prose the question "What if Sanginus wasnt getting visions but suffering from a form of dementia" it would explain the flaw in his children. His primarch body would be able to handle such extremes, thus appearing as visions, but in his children its a form of insanity. It could be that it wasnt his death as the act that caused it, but rather his absence. He was a powerful Psyker and could have been a grounding agent for the rest of his kin. kinda like a lightning rod in a storm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I would prose the question "What if Sanginus wasnt getting visions but suffering from a form of dementia" it would explain the flaw in his children. His primarch body would be able to handle such extremes, thus appearing as visions, but in his children its a form of insanity. What?! Insane but powerful psyker? Why would an insane psyker, with paranoid visions, try to keep his sanity? It doesn't make sense. And btw there is one paranoid prophet - Night Haunter, and he wasn't even trying to suppress his visions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I would prose the question "What if Sanginus wasnt getting visions but suffering from a form of dementia" it would explain the flaw in his children. How dare you say such of the greatest Son of the Emperor! I dare you say that while we both stand on the face of your planet ready to duel! Oh no wait.. your planet was destroyed long ago. *grins* His primarch body would be able to handle such extremes, thus appearing as visions, but in his children its a form of insanity. It could be that it wasnt his death as the act that caused it, but rather his absence. He was a powerful Psyker and could have been a grounding agent for the rest of his kin. kinda like a lightning rod in a storm. This is another theory that actually ties in with mine. I have always liked it myself, and Sanguinius would know this.. well, except for the dementia part.. but the fact that Sanguinius was a beacon that held the flaw in the Blood's geneseed in check was more than clear when he was beaten by the Bloodletter the first time they encountered each other. In that moment, the Flaw was actually the reason the Blood Angels survived. Having lost the guidance of their Primarch, they entered a bloodlust the forces of Chaos could not answer to. In a way, the chapter as a whole was stronger without the guidance of their Primarch. And after the death of Sanguinius, they learned themselves how to control their Flaw through force of will alone. The first Chapter Master (I forgot his name, but the person that is probably the Sanguinor) made sure of this. So, it all ties in with my theory: Sanguinius knew what would happen with his children, he actually saw it before. And he also knew that the Flaw, despite it's obvious downsides, was also the best defense his Legion had against the influence of Chaos. Especially if, in his death, Sanguinius would create a psychic backlash to imprint the memory of his final battle into the geneseed of the Legion. It could all be orchastrated by the greatest and wisest of the Emperor's Sons to protect his children in his absence. Why else would one with a gift such as his so willingly give his life, if he not knew for sure that his life's work would not be destroyed? And to our Dark Angel friend: Only one Primarch's name is sung as lovingly by the people of the Imperium as that of the Emperor himself. And that Primarch is Sanguinius. The Hero of the Imperium, the Martyr of the Siege of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dremen Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 [quote name='Brother-Captain Devlonir' date='Feb 21 2011, 11:10 PM' post='2667398' How dare you say such of the greatest Son of the Emperor! I dare you say that while we both stand on the face of your planet ready to duel! Oh no wait.. your planet was destroyed long ago. *grins*... ...And to our Dark Angel friend: Only one Primarch's name is sung as lovingly by the people of the Imperium as that of the Emperor himself. And that Primarch is Sanguinius. The Hero of the Imperium, the Martyr of the Siege of Terra. Im not sure the 35th Cadian regiment would be so quick to "sing the praises' of your Primarch Brother. (pg14 Reign of Blood) As for standing on my world, I welcome you to stand upon the Rock's outter surface we will "settle" things there. Or we could go to the radioactive wasteland your kind prefers to wallow in. We could duel amongst the mutant population of Baal in all thier... Glory? Gv0zD Dementia doesnt nessecitate insanity. It can be as much as tricks of the mind to other more serious mental issues. The Winged Primarch could have suffered from it yet, being a primarch, have had the fortitude to withstand its effects. Either way his loss was tragic, and the flaw evident in your gene-seed needs to be overcome. Regardless of our Chapters' divergances we are all still brothers. Even those damned dogs of Russ. Brother Captain Kezef is right as well. There are no mass exodus' of Battle-Brothers as happened during the heresy. At most its a company sized unit, usually lost in the warp, that may fall out of desperation. All Chapters suffer losses to Chaos but not in great numbers. Our Chapters wouldnt be able to maintina combat strength if we lost that many all at once. Look at Pedro Kantors Crimson Fists. Thier Chapter was devestated on Rynn's World and, while they still live, thier numbers are only now returning to thier former strength. I do think your flaw gives you a certain strength, and a tool to use against the encroacements of the great enemy. But such a tool has a cost, that cost is your Death Company. Mestiphon isnt alone however, Lemartes, Gaurdian of the lost, also shows promise. It may be that Sanginus' gift saved you from falling and you are now ready to live without it. Two individuals, using dissimilar methods, have fought the flaw, and they seem to be winnning, less so for Lemartes of course. The Blood Angels wont fall or turn to Chaos. Despite being frivilous Artisans and Poets youre still Astartes. You'll be needed when the defication hits the occilation and the galaxy is thrust into another dark time. A time that is fast approaching. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The first Chapter Master (I forgot his name, but the person that is probably the Sanguinor) made sure of this. Sanguinor's possible identity is Azkaellon - the last surviving member of the Sanguinary Guard during the Heresy. But was he promoted to the Chapter Master? So, it all ties in with my theory: Sanguinius knew what would happen with his children, he actually saw it before. And he also knew that the Flaw, despite it's obvious downsides, was also the best defense his Legion had against the influence of Chaos. Especially if, in his death, Sanguinius would create a psychic backlash to imprint the memory of his final battle into the geneseed of the Legion.It could all be orchastrated by the greatest and wisest of the Emperor's Sons to protect his children in his absence. Why else would one with a gift such as his so willingly give his life, if he not knew for sure that his life's work would not be destroyed? This theory is indeed interesting. However, there is one thing that makes me doubt it. Could Sanguinius deliberately pass this "heritage" to his sons? Sanguinius, the Primarch who led his people and his sons to prosperity and better future, would let his sons slightly descend into madness just to prevent their fall to chaos. Even though they possessed the strong will and sense of duty that would deny them betraying the Imperium. And the flaw would give the Chaos another possible way to tempt and try to corrupt the Legion. Sangunius should know what will it cause, if he did it on purpose. And to our Dark Angel friend: Only one Primarch's name is sung as lovingly by the people of the Imperium as that of the Emperor himself. And that Primarch is Sanguinius. The Hero of the Imperium, the Martyr of the Siege of Terra. By the Blood Of Sanguinius! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So, it all ties in with my theory: Sanguinius knew what would happen with his children, he actually saw it before. And he also knew that the Flaw, despite it's obvious downsides, was also the best defense his Legion had against the influence of Chaos. Especially if, in his death, Sanguinius would create a psychic backlash to imprint the memory of his final battle into the geneseed of the Legion.It could all be orchastrated by the greatest and wisest of the Emperor's Sons to protect his children in his absence. Why else would one with a gift such as his so willingly give his life, if he not knew for sure that his life's work would not be destroyed? This theory is indeed interesting. However, there is one thing that makes me doubt it. Could Sanguinius deliberately pass this "heritage" to his sons? Sanguinius, the Primarch who led his people and his sons to prosperity and better future, would let his sons slightly descend into madness just to prevent their fall to chaos. Even though they possessed the strong will and sense of duty that would deny them betraying the Imperium. And the flaw would give the Chaos another possible way to tempt and try to corrupt the Legion. Sangunius should know what will it cause, if he did it on purpose. As I said before, in my opinion the Flaw and especially the Black Rage part of it (which came to be only after Sanguinius' death) actually strengthens the Blood Angel's resolve and trains the Marine to fight inner temptation (Thirst) and anger (Rage) every day of his life. It makes each Marine, in himself, stronger to fight the corruption of Chaos on a personal level. Not to mention the fact that the Rage itself creates visions and memories as vivid as real life about the greatest horrors of Chaos. I think Sanguinius realised that no matter how strong his children are, without his guidance they would have a greater risk of falling because of the geneseed flaw (The Red Thirst, which existed before his death). So if he, in a last moment of love for his sons, can ensure their strength and conviction in the future, even if it dooms them to a slow decline, it would have been better than the risk of all of them falling to the same Chaos his most beloved brother Horus had fallen to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 sorry dark angels shouldnt talk about traitors. half your force sided with luther and you even call yourselves the fallen. and insulting the name of our primarch :( if we were to say such things about the lion... well we wont lower ourselves to your level... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfDeathXIII Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 sorry dark angels shouldnt talk about traitors. half your force sided with luther and you even call yourselves the fallen. and insulting the name of our primarch :( if we were to say such things about the lion... well we wont lower ourselves to your level... I will :D well kinda.. I mean.. At least our Primarch wasn't raised by a man who turned out to be a Chaos worshipper.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 huh? i thought the lion was alone most of his time on caliban and hunted the lions til he was discovered... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222588-chaos-and-blood-angles/page/3/#findComment-2667725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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