FnP Rules question

[Rybnick]

FEEL NO PAIN

Some warriors are so blood-frenzied or tough that

they can ignore injuries that would incapacitate

even a battle-hardened Space Marine. If a model

with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a

dice. On a 1, 2 or 3, take the wound as normal

(removing the model if it loses its final wound).

On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is ignored and the model

continues fighting. This ability cannot be used

against weapons that inflict Instant Death (by

having a high enough Strength or a special rule to

that effect; even if the model is an Eternal

Warrior) or against close combat weapons that

allow no Armour Save (such as power fists, power

swords, Dreadnought close combat weapons,

rending attacks that roll a 6, etc).

 

My buddy and I went to a new local shop in town to play some 40k. He got into a game with a CSM player who had a different take on the FnP rules than we did, and I just wanted to double check and make sure I've been playing the rule right.

 

So the debate started when my buddy cast Catalyst on his Termagaunts and wanted to take a FnP saving throw against the Chaos players rapid firing Thousand Sons bolters. The way we have always interpreted the above rule (copy and pasted just for reference) is that FnP saves are allowed against anything except things that outright kill by doubling the S of the target, PW's of all types, AP 1-2 weaponry, and any weapon that specifically states that models wounded are instantly killed. How the Chaos player saw the rule was that since his bolters AP'ed the gaunts they wouldn't get a FnP roll because they normally wouldn't get any save at all against the bolters. We had a discussion back and forth over the rule for a little bit before we decided they would roll off and whoever rolled higher they would play by their interpretation of the rule. Long story short my friend won the roll and we played FnP the way we always have.

 

Anyone have any feedback for me? Have I been playing this rule wrong?

[Vilicate]

No. The 1ksons player was incorrect.

 

Only when you don't get an Armor Save in melee do you not receive Feel no Pain.

[TheMouth]

No. The 1ksons player was incorrect.

 

Only when you don't get an Armor Save in melee do you not receive Feel no Pain.

 

 

this.

[breng77]

Wow... this comes up like every 2 weeks.

 

First off you quoted the FNP rule incorrectly above. The end of the rule (and the part that causes the confusion is) "Neither can if be used against wounds from AP 1 or AP2 weapons, power weapons, and any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken." After which it sites things like dangerous terrain, and perils in the warp.

 

Some people read the "...any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken.." and think that it means that if that specific model (the guant in your case) cannot take its armor save it cannot benefit from feel no pain. Effectively this would mean that gaunts only get FNP in close combat (against basic attacks) and against guns with AP -. It would also mean that Plauge bearer can never use the FNP that they have as they lack an armor save (which would be silly even for GW).

 

The correct reading of "...any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken.." is anything that would ignore a 2+ armor save, or any wound which never allows any model to benefit from its armor save.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who frequently play this game don't really know the rules correctly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The CSM player was wrong.

 

G

[Brother Weasel]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who frequently play this game don't really know the rules correctly.

 

 

you seam to think that A) everyone knows every save that every army that has an FNP save has (I've been playing for 15 years and i don't know them all.) GW makes all their rules so perfectly clear that arguments don't' arise from it... don't get cocky, that's why people ask on boards like this for clarification.

[JamesI]

Nurgle demons have no armor save and FNP. They can never take an armor save, but they get FNP.

 

TSons bolters (my chaos army is Tzeentch aligned) only eliminate FNP if the target is Toughness 2.

[breng77]

you seam to think that A) everyone knows every save that every army that has an FNP save has (I've been playing for 15 years and i don't know them all.) GW makes all their rules so perfectly clear that arguments don't' arise from it... don't get cocky, that's why people ask on boards like this for clarification.

 

No as assume that in general people can read english/or whatever language they are proficient in. You don't need to know every armies armor save to read no armor save may ever, as it reads, and not your armor save can never be taken. Sorry, the rules are a sore spot for me right now as I played someone yesterday, who told me I needed to roll for terrain to assault his unit that was partially in terrain when the only model I was within 6" of was not in terrain, and when I was going to give that to him told me I didn't get move through cover for my genestealers when assaulting into cover. I'm sorry but that is simple reading of the rules. I don't assume every person knows all the rules for every army, but knowing the rules for the general game/not getting upset when someone points out their wrong and shows them in the book, and knows the rules for their own army should not be all that much to ask.

 

I also have no problem with it at all if they know they don't know the rules, but when they are convinced they know the rules, even when you show them the rules that don't agree with them. That is what gets to me.

 

Sorry for the rant. :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Rules lawyers are such a pain.

 

:D

[Rybnick]

Thanks for the resonses, I was sure that I'd been playing the rule right but wanted to double check myself just to make sure. In regards to the rule being quoted wrong above that's possible. I copy/pasted it from a pfd I keep on my work computer and I'm not sure everything in it is 100% correct.

 

We brought up the fact that demons don't have armor saves and yet they get FnP in our argument for the rule in our favor but the Chaos player was pretty adamant about his version and arguing with someone you've just met is pretty torturous.

[breng77]

We brought up the fact that demons don't have armor saves and yet they get FnP in our argument for the rule in our favor but the Chaos player was pretty adamant about his version and arguing with someone you've just met is pretty torturous.

 

Indeed it is. Especially when it is missreading on their part as showing them the rule does not really help. It would be nice if GW FAQed FNP, just to clarify the statement.

[Brother Weasel]

you seam to think that A) everyone knows every save that every army that has an FNP save has (I've been playing for 15 years and i don't know them all.) GW makes all their rules so perfectly clear that arguments don't' arise from it... don't get cocky, that's why people ask on boards like this for clarification.

 

No as assume that in general people can read english/or whatever language they are proficient in. You don't need to know every armies armor save to read no armor save may ever, as it reads, and not your armor save can never be taken. Sorry, the rules are a sore spot for me right now as I played someone yesterday, who told me I needed to roll for terrain to assault his unit that was partially in terrain when the only model I was within 6" of was not in terrain, and when I was going to give that to him told me I didn't get move through cover for my genestealers when assaulting into cover. I'm sorry but that is simple reading of the rules. I don't assume every person knows all the rules for every army, but knowing the rules for the general game/not getting upset when someone points out their wrong and shows them in the book, and knows the rules for their own army should not be all that much to ask.

 

I also have no problem with it at all if they know they don't know the rules, but when they are convinced they know the rules, even when you show them the rules that don't agree with them. That is what gets to me.

 

Sorry for the rant. :D

 

it's simple, if i read the BA dex the first time, i can see how one could interpret it to be simply if you don't get a save then you don't get FNP (which we know is not the case)

 

"It never ceases to amaze me how many people who frequently play this game don't really know the rules correctly."

 

there are a lot of rules to know... and if you don't play frequently, or, heavan forbid, are taught wrong... that's all i'm saying... jsut that line... not that the rest wasn't right...

[shatter]

@OP

 

A weapon's AP rating defeating a specific target's armour value doesn't cause FnP to fail. Basically, the rule tells you what's what. AP1 & 2. It does not talk about higher (worse) APs and target armour at all.

'No armour saves may ever be taken' is, in essence, a specific rule reserved for PWs which is why an above poster said:

 

No. The 1ksons player was incorrect.

 

Only when you don't get an Armor Save in melee do you not receive Feel no Pain.

 

There's an Official Rules sub forum here on the BnC. Do a searchy there and you'll see threads, one after another, dedicated to answering this selfsame FnP question.

[breng77]

there are a lot of rules to know... and if you don't play frequently, or, heavan forbid, are taught wrong... that's all i'm saying... jsut that line... not that the rest wasn't right...

 

Oh I know, that there are plenty of reasons that one might not know the rules, but it seems far too often that those who don't know them stick to their interpretation all evidence to the contrary. This is one major reason that when I play with newer players I go out of my way to point out rules, and show them where they come from. I also understand why people get FNP wrong, but it has to do with faulty reading comprehension, of a rule that could possibly be worded more clearly. NO armor save =/= your armor save, and I understand that you know that, but too often I feel that people that read this rule wrong are purposely doing in order to gain an advantage..

[Vilicate]

@OP

 

A weapon's AP rating defeating a specific target's armour value doesn't cause FnP to fail. Basically, the rule tells you what's what. AP1 & 2. It does not talk about higher (worse) APs and target armour at all.

'No armour saves may ever be taken' is, in essence, a specific rule reserved for PWs which is why an above poster said:

 

No. The 1ksons player was incorrect.

 

Only when you don't get an Armor Save in melee do you not receive Feel no Pain.

 

There's an Official Rules sub forum here on the BnC. Do a searchy there and you'll see threads, one after another, dedicated to answering this selfsame FnP question.

 

The reason that I stated it like I did is because you don't get Feel no Pain from things that don't allow an armor save in Close Combat that aren't necessarily Power Weapons. Things like 6's with Rending attacks, or hits from Monstrous Creatures.

 

But yeah, this is a pretty common misinterpretation that I see when I play 40k in general, from casual gaming to high-level tournament play, surprisingly. 40k isn't bad though as far as the rules go, as most everyone gets it. You'd be amazed at the number of Fantasy players at high level tournament who don't know the rules.

[shatter]

*snip*

The reason that I stated it like I did is because you don't get Feel no Pain from things that don't allow an armor save in Close Combat that aren't necessarily Power Weapons. Things like 6's with Rending attacks, or hits from Monstrous Creatures.

*snip*

 

Right, rending and so on duplicates the 'PW effect'.

Like LCs, Pfists and thammers also contain the PW special rule.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

As JamesI pointed out why would Plague Bearers have no armor save and FNP? Sounds to me like the CSM player was simply trying to get over and he succeeded with his ploy. That's how I see it based upon the information presented.

 

G ;)

[breng77]

A weapon's AP rating defeating a specific target's armour value doesn't cause FnP to fail. Basically, the rule tells you what's what. AP1 & 2. It does not talk about higher (worse) APs and target armour at all.

'No armour saves may ever be taken' is, in essence, a specific rule reserved for PWs which is why an above poster said:

 

Except that it is not at all a reference to only PWs, it is any wound, such as dangerous terrain, or perils of the warp. The rule references PWs specifically before stating the any wound against which no armor save is allowed.