Bulwyf Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 In my little circle of 40k friends we've been having this ongoing row about fluff wise how the heck the CSM keep obtaining gene seed and recruits to keep going. One friend postulates that the Traitor Legions had enough extant men, recruits and saved gene seed that they can keep fighting forever due to how time works in the Warp and that on Daemon Worlds they have enough native populations of humans to draw upon for their recruiting needs. One friend says that the Traitor Legions were so decimated by the Heresy that their numbers are so far diminished and without any real way to keep their numbers that most Legions are simply shattered warbands that eventually will die out due to never replacing recruits or having enough gene seed to keep going. Another friends says that the one bit of fluff we have about Iron Warriors and how they "grow" new Iron Warriors is how all the other Traitor Legions keep going and that their numbers are in fact steadily growing. He also is a proponent that Abaddon's Crusades are not failures but simply a slow weakening of the Imperium forces around Cadia and that some point there will be enough CSM to overcome the defenses and burn the galaxy clean. I believe that the Iron Warrior fluff is only for Iron Warriors. We don't have any real fluff outside of them and how the Alpha Legion tricks loyalist Chapters into losing gene seed or a flat out raid on gene seed banks secreted around the Imperium that we've seen in some BL books from various Legions. I don't see how that alone can keep these nine Legions plus assorted post Heresy renegade CSM Chapters going. Is this just a deus ex machina we're expected to just accept and not dwell upon? I don't see too many World Eaters worrying about gene seed and recruits but you know they have to some means of making new World Eaters or they'd be wiped out by now. Same goes for Night Lords and the rest of the Traitor Legions. What do you guys think? How do our favorite CSM keep finding the numbers to torment the Imperium with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The Night Lords recover the gene seed of their fallen brothers and reuse it (Soul Hunter). In 'Storm of Iron' the Iron Warriors capture a vast amount of loyalist gene seed. Most of this is given to the Black Legion in payment for a dept they were owed (but the IW get a significant amount for their own use). Fabius bile also works for all the different traitor legions, creating new astartes from captured gene seed. The Red Corsairs captured the entire gene stock of the Marines Errent chapter. So most of the traitor legions capture loyalist gene seed or reuse the gene seed recovered from fallen brothers. The traitor legions most likely still contain apothecaries and so have the 'know how' and resources to create new Astartes. Even the World Eaters have their 'Berzerker-Surgeons' who are Apothecaries that also specialise in the psycho-surgery that the legions is so well know for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I'd also assume re-using their own geneseed depends on the legion in question, less "corrupt" legions, like the Night Lords, Alpha Legion(maybe? the whole hidden tentacle thing going on) can probably function similar to loyalists, but for legions like Deathguard, might be a tad trickier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 It was my understanding that what the Iron Warriors were doing in that Ultramarines book was some sort of one-off thing Lord Honsou's predecessor put into place. I could be wrong, though. But any time Lord Honsou is mentioned they make a big deal out of him being a "half breed", that is to say an Iron Warrior created from the gene-seed of a Loyalist Primarch. However many like him there are, it seems to be extraordinary that he came to be even a captain, much less a Warsmith. From this I imagine that the vast majority of Iron Warriors are either original Traitors or promoted from the lower echelons that have post-Heresy Perturabo gene-seed installed by Legion apothecaries. But the examples of gene-seed raids such as in the book Storm of Iron and in other references also leaves room for a great deal of relatively newer Legionnaires to have been created like Honsou, just not having been promoted like him. The Legions being few? Hardly. There were hundreds of thousands of them to begin with, and the time flow of the Warp means that you can either have original Traitors to whom the Battle of Terra was a few years ago, or even theoretically yesterday, or also have a group that has been growing and replacing their own gene-seed for 10,000 years. Add to that ripping the gene-seed out of fallen foes on the battlefield and raiding gene-seed caches every now and then, and I think what we're looking at is a HUGE horde of those loyal to the Warmaster. In different fluff sources I've read about all the zany things that the Traitor Legions get up to in the Eye of Terror, plotting on each other, waging pointless battles for the amusement of the Ruinous Powers (the Brass Bowl, I think, is an example, a giant concave dish made of brass that World Eaters and Emperor's Children are constantly fighting over for no other reason than the enmity of their respective gods), brooding en masse with their Primarchs or whatever... I'm inclined to think that if Chaos wasn't so... chaotic... then untold numbers of Traitor Legionnaires would come pouring out of the Eye and stomp the Imperium flat. But then the gods' fun would be curtailed, so I think that the Traitor Marines who still fight the Long War and are actually seen outside of the Eye are probably a minority, frustrated with their brothers lack of focus and venting their rage endlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 We can still sustain our current numbers in the same way the loyalists do. However, unlike the loyalists who would sooner burn their enemy's geneseed, we are quite willing to steal the lapdog scum's seed and use it to create even more Chaos Marines. In this way, we continue to grow as long as we don't sustain too many casualties. (if we have to, we can just go and hide for a bit while we rebuild. Most loyalists are too goody-two-shoes to do that!) And unlike the loyalists, who might select a few brave individuals who have shown outstanding ability to become aspirants/recruits, we can round up millions of cultists and send all of them through trials until only the best remain. The result: more recruits to become full Astartes than our corpse-loving bretheren. The 13th Black Crusade could just be the vanguard, you know. Once we have solidified our foothold around the Eye (which will be soon), we can wipe the galaxy clean of the unbelievers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Death is not always death for Chaos Space Marines either. Sometimes, Warriors who still have value are allowed to be reborn, not just as daemons, but to be brought back to life as their souls are bartered between daemons and Sorcerers. So that is one thing that keeps the numbers "up". They steal geneseeds from loyalists. And Fabius Bile IIRC also has the ability to 'make" CSM. Though I'm not 100% on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Afaik, CSM have always been able to recruit (I listed some fluff here). So far, I haven't read any fluff saying otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Night Lords recruit youngsters from a dying world in Nightfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 to me it seems a heavy mix of every thing mentioned here. cant see chaos caring how it gets their troops as long as they do... what i want to know is do the thousand sons do any of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 In the case of the thousand sons... while not marines as such the sorcerers are able to use rituals to reform rubric armour and trap the soul back inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 but what about the socerors, arnt they falling in numbers? do they train new guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 but what about the socerors, arnt they falling in numbers? do they train new guys? It is known that the legion recruits human acolytes but often these are sacrificed for spells and so on and I do not know if any make it to "marinehood". It is also possible that others who are interested in that kind of junk join the legion... and finally remember that sorcerers use Rubrics as shields and if things are going bad then no doubt they will try and get out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 We are also forgetting that many of the Chaos Legions still have their Primarchs so obtaining Geneseed (however corrupt) in the origional form is still possible. Some of the Chaos Legions may not necessarily view corrupt Geneseed as a disadvantage at all. There are quite a few bits of fluff about Chaos Marines inciteing rebellions to attract Loyal marines just to cull them and harvest Geneseed, armour and equipment (why little of this equipment actually appears in Codex Chaos is a mystery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 We are also forgetting that many of the Chaos Legions still have their Primarchs so obtaining Geneseed (however corrupt) in the origional form is still possible. Some of the Chaos Legions may not necessarily view corrupt Geneseed as a disadvantage at all. There are quite a few bits of fluff about Chaos Marines inciteing rebellions to attract Loyal marines just to cull them and harvest Geneseed, armour and equipment (why little of this equipment actually appears in Codex Chaos is a mystery). I've never considered the fact that we still have primarchs, that's interesting... I wonder though if that technique is indeed still usable. but what about the socerors, arnt they falling in numbers? do they train new guys? It is known that the legion recruits human acolytes but often these are sacrificed for spells and so on and I do not know if any make it to "marinehood". It is also possible that others who are interested in that kind of junk join the legion... and finally remember that sorcerers use Rubrics as shields and if things are going bad then no doubt they will try and get out of there. If you're talking about thrall wizards, I'm pretty sure sorcerers just enervate them to power their spells, not necessarily kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razrhaghul Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 here's something to remember, not every chosen of the Primarchs were able to become true Astartes, usually due to age. case in point Luther, or Maggard(sp?), the bodyguard to the Warmaster's remembrancer. But they were almost as capable warriors, genetically augmented, and given power armor. (and since 40k doesn't have much variance in realistic game stats, they'd pretty much just be marines) If the legions can't steal or requisition actually geneseed, then they could probably gen-mod/de-mutate feral people of the Eye into quasi-marines, surely the knowledge to do that is less demanding than actual geneseed? Granted these individuals would never achieve full-legionnaire status, probably never become lords or garner the same respect shared by their Astarte betters, but at least they could fulfill the need for power-armored linemen, carry a bolter or heavy weapon, and survive longer than any mutants or cultists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Riorik Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 If one can be allowed but one jokey remark then I am to say that I am sure the Slaaneshi followers have both obtained and shared the geneseed heftily over the years. But on a more serious note shouldn't it be possible for the followers of Chaos to actually create new geneseed instead of only ever recycling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 But on a more serious note shouldn't it be possible for the followers of Chaos to actually create new geneseed instead of only ever recycling?Hello, my name is Fabius Bile, and I've done just that. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 We don't have to pay geneseed tithes either. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 But on a more serious note shouldn't it be possible for the followers of Chaos to actually create new geneseed instead of only ever recycling?Hello, my name is Fabius Bile, and I've done just that. :P I didn't know Fabius was a Night Lord. Can he actually create new Geneseed? Like from scratch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 But on a more serious note shouldn't it be possible for the followers of Chaos to actually create new geneseed instead of only ever recycling?Hello, my name is Fabius Bile, and I've done just that. ;) I didn't know Fabius was a Night Lord. Can he actually create new Geneseed? Like from scratch? Bile is an Emperor's Children. And its thought he can 'create' space marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 But on a more serious note shouldn't it be possible for the followers of Chaos to actually create new geneseed instead of only ever recycling?Hello, my name is Fabius Bile, and I've done just that. :rolleyes: I didn't know Fabius was a Night Lord. Can he actually create new Geneseed? Like from scratch? Bile is an Emperor's Children. And its thought he can 'create' space marines. In the HH novel Fulgrim, Bile's laboratory has rows of big tubes with "failed experiments'' and what seem to be described as, to me, the beginings of "test tube" Astartes. Space Marines that are literally "grown" rather than "born." Now, if a Chaos Lord were to give Bile, say, a gigantic laboratory much larger than this one, and let the mad scientist grow as many Astartes as possible...thats a lot of Marines to fight the Long War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I remember in some of the older fluff that Fabius did just this, and hired his knowledge out to the chaos legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 and hes apparently collecting different sets of geanseedsand blood samples. look at what he did to the ravenguard and bloodangels. and didnt he clone horus... or so im told... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 But on a more serious note shouldn't it be possible for the followers of Chaos to actually create new geneseed instead of only ever recycling?Hello, my name is Fabius Bile, and I've done just that. :rolleyes: I didn't know Fabius was a Night Lord. Can he actually create new Geneseed? Like from scratch? Bile is an Emperor's Children. And its thought he can 'create' space marines. 2nd ed. Codec Chaos, page 102 states that he can indeed create gene-seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 If you go by the bloodangel novels he's quite accomplished at the cloning and is looking to replicate the emperor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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