Is Saga of the hunter worth it?

[xxvaderxx]

I keep coming across topics that state that SotH was errated and is now usefull but i can not find it anywhere. Care to explain or point me in the direction?.

[Valerian]

I keep coming across topics that state that SotH was errated and is now usefull but i can not find it anywhere. Care to explain or point me in the direction?.

 

Yes, read the most recent Space Wolves Errata and FAQ document.

 

 

Valerian

[xxvaderxx]

I keep coming across topics that state that SotH was errated and is now usefull but i can not find it anywhere. Care to explain or point me in the direction?.

 

Yes, read the most recent Space Wolves Errata and FAQ document.

 

 

Valerian

 

I have read it already, nothing new about it there, if you want to outflank with an HQ then it has to be on foot and with the saga, that has always been the case, but this on it self does not make it usefull, or does any one run 100+ points hqs on suicide missions?.

I mean the hole point of Scouts is that they can be done relativelly cheap and effective, why would you want to add expensive HQs to units that may not get to see action and if they do have a high chance to get slaughtered to the last man?.

[postal105]

read the faq for the big book about the clarification of the stealth special rule. it is as follows

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth

special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover

save? (p76)

A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule

ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

[xxvaderxx]

read the faq for the big book about the clarification of the stealth special rule. it is as follows

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth

special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover

save? (p76)

A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule

ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

 

yeah i saw that, that what all the hipe was about?.

 

Thou i have to admit, a 4+ permanent covered Land rider is rather tempting. Would that work? does the Stealth rule apply to the vehicles toon ride?.

[Stormshrug]

Well, remember that you can make our Scout Packs deadly in close combat with x2 Power Weapons and a Wolf Guard with a PW/PF. Adding on a cheap Wolf Guard Battle Leader (for the I5 Power Weapon/Wolf Claw/Frost Blade attacks) or a Wolf Priest (for Oath of War) makes this squad even more destructive. This is a pretty brutal squad that you can, very reliably, deliver to the optimal position and have it assault the turn it comes in.

 

Some people don't like this strategy, for whatever reason, but I've used it to great effect in the past. It lacks the raw power of a Thunderlord backed by some TWC, but it's also a lot cheaper than that or an LRC full of of Terminator-armored Wolf Guard. Yes, you do need to use it tactically - slamming it into the Swarmlord is probably suicide. Target their weaker elements, and unless they're playing a Herohammer cheese list, there should be plenty of things for this squad to cut up.

 

What people have found interesting recently, however, is the fact that the Stealth rule appears, according to the new Errata, to apply to the whole squad who accompanies the character with Saga of the Hunter. So if a Rune Priest casts Storm Caller, and is in a squad with a character with Saga of the Hunter, that's a moving 4+ cover save for the squad at all times.

 

Edit: Someone beat me to it, naturally.

 

-Stormshrug

[chino]

A Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter attatched to 15 Blood Claws with a Rune Priest with Storm Caller attached to Grey Hunters behind them, or multiple squads if food slogging. This provides a 4+ cover save to the Blood Claws and a 4/5+ cover save to the units behind them. This can make foot slogging armies a bit more survivable when attempting to reach the enemy.

 

As well, the Wolf Priest can Outflank with Wolf Scouts - although using OBEL with a Wolf Priest is still up for debate, mostly in favour of them not being able to use OBEL. This way, you can give the Scouts a Meltagun, a Wolf Guard with a Combi-Melta and a Wolf Priest with a Combi-Melta for some very devastating anti-tank potential. (Alternatively, a barebones Wolf Guard Battle Leader can do the same for about 30 points less but doesn't convey Fearless or Preferred Enemy.)

 

Over all, its a very useful tactic against more stationary armies.

[Zzo]

read the faq for the big book about the clarification of the stealth special rule. it is as follows

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth

special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover

save? (p76)

A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule

ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

 

yeah i saw that, that what all the hipe was about?.

 

Thou i have to admit, a 4+ permanent covered Land rider is rather tempting. Would that work? does the Stealth rule apply to the vehicles toon ride?.

 

No, the LR would not benefit from stealth.

[Adarul Greystalker]

Regarding the viability of outflanking scouts with an independent character attached, you might be surprised at how effective it can be. I've run my wolf guard battle leader several times in this way (wolf claw, storm shield, runic armor, saga of the hunter, 2 fenrisian wolves) before the new FAQ to great effect. Of course it's possible that you could end up with a situation where your wolf scouts are more likely to end up stranded, but then you can just infiltrate them and stick your character with a grey hunter pack (I always leave a spot in a rhino open for him).

[xxvaderxx]

read the faq for the big book about the clarification of the stealth special rule. it is as follows

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth

special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover

save? (p76)

A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule

ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

 

yeah i saw that, that what all the hipe was about?.

 

Thou i have to admit, a 4+ permanent covered Land rider is rather tempting. Would that work? does the Stealth rule apply to the vehicles toon ride?.

 

No, the LR would not benefit from stealth.

 

What is the reasoning behind that rulling? just curious, dont remember the exact saga wording.

[Zzo]

read the faq for the big book about the clarification of the stealth special rule. it is as follows

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth

special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover

save? (p76)

A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule

ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

 

yeah i saw that, that what all the hipe was about?.

 

Thou i have to admit, a 4+ permanent covered Land rider is rather tempting. Would that work? does the Stealth rule apply to the vehicles toon ride?.

 

No, the LR would not benefit from stealth.

 

What is the reasoning behind that rulling? just curious, dont remember the exact saga wording.

 

Stealth only affects models in the same unit, a WP in a LR is not part of the same unit. It's a unit co-existing within another.

[xxvaderxx]

read the faq for the big book about the clarification of the stealth special rule. it is as follows

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth

special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover

save? (p76)

A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule

ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

 

yeah i saw that, that what all the hipe was about?.

 

Thou i have to admit, a 4+ permanent covered Land rider is rather tempting. Would that work? does the Stealth rule apply to the vehicles toon ride?.

 

No, the LR would not benefit from stealth.

 

What is the reasoning behind that rulling? just curious, dont remember the exact saga wording.

 

Stealth only affects models in the same unit, a WP in a LR is not part of the same unit. It's a unit co-existing within another.

 

Yeah, got that, forgot about the embarked in the bacum effect, well they some how needed to explain how do 10 marines in PA fit inside a rino.

 

I would still not pay 210+ points to foot slug 250+ points of Blood Claws, just so they can screen the rest of my army, thats spending almost a third of your army on screens, rinos cost a fraction of that and serve the same porpouse.

I could consider doing so with wolves thou. 15 come at 120 points, thats less than half the cost for 1 point of armor and this cant be denied by plasma and stuff.

[Forté]

Was trying to find reasons to use SotH myself. While the +1 cover save to the whole squad is good. Doesn't deploying the IC in any way other than reserve go completely against the Saga itself?

[Spacefrisian]

Saying that stealth confers on unit and saga of the hunter are the same is saying apples and bananas are the same. We know the answer to the last part (although i wonder if some know that).

[elithren]

Consider putting the priest in a drop pod with 8 grey hunters and a WG tricked out and then drop the pod into area terrain or some sort of cover. Now your guys get 3+ cover save and you get 2 to 3 melta shots on some vehicle. My local metagame likes to put their vehicles to almost hugging terrain so I always get something when it comes in.

[postal105]

Was trying to find reasons to use SotH myself. While the +1 cover save to the whole squad is good. Doesn't deploying the IC in any way other than reserve go completely against the Saga itself?

you can hold the entire unit in reserve that he is attached to if you want to as there is no rule saying that you must deploy your entire force.

[Stormbrow II]

Has anyone else thought of a Terminator unit that's Fearless and almost always has a 3+ cover save?

 

Wolf Priest with Talisman, Saga of Hunter 115 pts

12 Wolf Guard (putting 3 or 4 into Grey Hunters) 415 pts

2 x Power Fist/CMelta

2 x CMelta

2 x TDA/Cyclone

2 x TDA/CombiMelta

2 x TDA

1 x TDA/Chainfist

1 x TDA/Power Fist

 

God help you trying to get KP out of this unit as its got 2+/3++ cover for most of the game. It can fight its way out of trouble (CF, PF, 6 Power Weapons) and acts like a squad of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers. But with 2+ saves. And manouverability. And Fearless. Throw a Rune Priest in there with a Talisman and you're laughing at psychic powers too.

 

And you also get to buff the GH units in your army by throwing some people in there.

[Rain Finale]

Has anyone else thought of a Terminator unit that's Fearless and almost always has a 3+ cover save?

 

Wolf Priest with Talisman, Saga of Hunter 115 pts

12 Wolf Guard (putting 3 or 4 into Grey Hunters) 415 pts

2 x Power Fist/CMelta

2 x CMelta

2 x TDA/Cyclone

2 x TDA/CombiMelta

2 x TDA

1 x TDA/Chainfist

1 x TDA/Power Fist

 

God help you trying to get KP out of this unit as its got 2+/3++ cover for most of the game. It can fight its way out of trouble (CF, PF, 6 Power Weapons) and acts like a squad of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers. But with 2+ saves. And manouverability. And Fearless. Throw a Rune Priest in there with a Talisman and you're laughing at psychic powers too.

 

And you also get to buff the GH units in your army by throwing some people in there.

 

When you talk about 3++ cover you mean only when you're in area terrain or when screened by another unit right? Sounds pretty cool and you could even talk about going to ground in area terrain on an objective for a 2+ cover save but that seems like a lot of points into a slow footslogging unit that you'll really only take advantage of cover if sitting on an objective (again, a lot of points just to sit there and shoot 4 missiles) or sitting with 1/2 the unit in area terrain for 3+ cover with the 2 cyclones outside of cover so they can shoot without giving cover saves to opponent for shooting out of cover (Edit: Unless you play on boards with a lot of area terrain).

 

Might be fun for a death star though

 

Minor note, since you already have a talisman on the wolf priest, you don't need to put one on the optional rune priest as well.

 

Fake edit: You can only take up to 10 Wolf Guard in a single unit so you'll have to drop at least two Wolf Guard there.

[Donutzot]

if you really want a decent save you just give them a storm shield then you have a 3+ invulnerable always

[Stormbrow II]

You can only take up to 10 Wolf Guard in a single unit so you'll have to drop at least two Wolf Guard there.

Its 3 to 20 unit size isn't it? I've no book in front of me though.

 

When you talk about 3++ cover you mean only when you're in area terrain or when screened by another unit right?

Yes.

 

if you really want a decent save you just give them a storm shield then you have a 3+ invulnerable always

Yes. But its 15 points a pop. That gets me either a suit of TDA or I can put it towards another warm body to make it harder to take out the squad. I've also thought about giving the Wolf Priest a pair of pets for more wound allocation shenanigans.

[Rain Finale]

WG unit size is 3-10

[Grimtooth]

A Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter attatched to 15 Blood Claws with a Rune Priest with Storm Caller attached to Grey Hunters behind them, or multiple squads if food slogging. This provides a 4+ cover save to the Blood Claws and a 4/5+ cover save to the units behind them. This can make foot slogging armies a bit more survivable when attempting to reach the enemy.

 

As well, the Wolf Priest can Outflank with Wolf Scouts - although using OBEL with a Wolf Priest is still up for debate, mostly in favour of them not being able to use OBEL. This way, you can give the Scouts a Meltagun, a Wolf Guard with a Combi-Melta and a Wolf Priest with a Combi-Melta for some very devastating anti-tank potential. (Alternatively, a barebones Wolf Guard Battle Leader can do the same for about 30 points less but doesn't convey Fearless or Preferred Enemy.)

 

Over all, its a very useful tactic against more stationary armies.

 

IC with Saga of the Hunter have no problem OBEL with Wolf Scouts. read over the rule clearly and it is perfectly clear that they can.

[Forté]

@Brother Ramses. Not completely sure your right there as SotH gives you Stealth and let's you outflank. OBEL isn't automatically passed onto IC's joining units in the way it is with WGPL as they are not part of the pack.

[Rain Finale]

A Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter attatched to 15 Blood Claws with a Rune Priest with Storm Caller attached to Grey Hunters behind them, or multiple squads if food slogging. This provides a 4+ cover save to the Blood Claws and a 4/5+ cover save to the units behind them. This can make foot slogging armies a bit more survivable when attempting to reach the enemy.

 

As well, the Wolf Priest can Outflank with Wolf Scouts - although using OBEL with a Wolf Priest is still up for debate, mostly in favour of them not being able to use OBEL. This way, you can give the Scouts a Meltagun, a Wolf Guard with a Combi-Melta and a Wolf Priest with a Combi-Melta for some very devastating anti-tank potential. (Alternatively, a barebones Wolf Guard Battle Leader can do the same for about 30 points less but doesn't convey Fearless or Preferred Enemy.)

 

Over all, its a very useful tactic against more stationary armies.

 

IC with Saga of the Hunter have no problem OBEL with Wolf Scouts. read over the rule clearly and it is perfectly clear that they can.

 

To be fair, it's more conflicting than clear.

 

Wolf Scouts special rules:

• And they Shall Know No Fear
  
• Acute Senses
  
• Counter-attack
  
• Infiltrate
  
• Move Through Cover
  
• Scout
  
• Behind Enemy Lines
  

*note the distinction between Infiltrate, Scout, and Behind Enemy Lines

 

Infiltrate rule:

"[...] Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve"

 

Scout rule:

"[...] This rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve"

 

Saga of the Hunter:

"The character has the ability to outflank and the Stealth rule."

 

*note we see that outflank is not a special rule but rather is conferred by other special rules (Saga of the Hunter, Scout, and Infiltrate all confer outflank).

 

Outflank rule:

"When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice: on a 1-2 the unit will come in from the short table edge on the player' left, on a 3-4 they will come from the right, on 5-6 the player can choose left or right.

 

Behind Enemy Lines rule:

"If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed. On the roll of a 1 the Wolf Scout unit enters play from the short table edge to the owning player's left, on a 2 they enter play from the short table edge to the owning player's right, and on a 3-6 they enter play from any table edge the Space Wolves player wishes. This may even be his opponent's table edge."

 

Sounds pretty clear that so long as the Wolf Scout unit decides to outflank which it can do if all members have outflank, that the Behind Enemy Lines rule applies since the Wolf Scout unit is already outflanking. The FAQ confirms this.

 

Space Wolves FAQ:

"Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank?

A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank."

 

However, it also insinuates that an IC cannot use the abilities of the unit it joins with unless it already has them. One of those special rules is Behind Enemy Lines.

 

"Q. Can a wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before the game begins because of its Scouts special rule, choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines?

A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule does not preclude the squad he has joined from using those abilities."

 

So while it's clear that an IC with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with Wolf Scouts, can the unit outflank with the Behind Enemy Lines special rule? The IC only gains outflanking from the saga and not scout or infiltrate so does Behind Enemy Lines apply? People could argue either way though looking at the wording of the Behind Enemy Lines rule and that GW FAQ says an IC with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with wolfscouts, I would think that the RAI is that Behind Enemy Lines still applies. However, a rules lawyer could very well argue against it.

[Stormbrow II]

GW FAQ says an IC with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with wolfscouts

That's hitting the nail on the head.