Is Saga of the hunter worth it?

[Ramza]

Here's a question in regards to saga of the hunter. If I have a Wolf Guard battle leader on a thunderwolf mount with saga of the hunter, can I join him to a TWC unit and then outflank that unit?

[Stormbrow II]

Hunter can only be given to Infantry. Sans Jump Pack. Sans bike. Sans TDA afair.

 

TWC can't get Outflank either. Only Scouts in the SW book can do it.

[Forté]

So outflank but not BEL.

[Godhead]

I thought they faq'd that to include BEL as well?

[postal105]

Here's a question in regards to saga of the hunter. If I have a Wolf Guard battle leader on a thunderwolf mount with saga of the hunter, can I join him to a TWC unit and then outflank that unit?

saga of the hunter can only be given to a Wolf Guard battle leader on foot the can not have a bike and they can not have a thunderwolf and they can not have a jump pack it says so in the codex.

[Rain Finale]

I thought they faq'd that to include BEL as well?

 

"Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank?

A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank."

 

They make no mention to whether Behind Enemy Lines applies or not. Saga of Hunter gives the IC outflank but it does not give the IC BEL. So you ask yourself do Wolf Scouts give the IC BEL even though normally special rules are not conferred to an IC unless they say so specifically? Does it even matter that the IC doesn't have BEL so long as he can outflank with the Scouts?

 

RAI seems to lean towards allowing the IC to BEL with the Scouts. It's a similar case with Long Fangs Fire Control special rule. It doesn't go away when an IC that doesn't have that rule joins the Long Fangs. In fact, while the wording says that Fire Control only exists if the squad leader is alive, the FAQ states that ICs can "act" as the squad leader and Fire Control works even if squad leader has died but an IC still remains attached even though the wording says "squad leader" not "squad leader or an independent character or a wolf guard pack leader".

 

"Q. Can a Long Fang unit benefit from Fire Control if it has been joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or Independent Character?

A. Yes indeed."

 

So while RAW (including FAQ) does not say a Saga of Hunter IC can BEL with Wolf Scouts, RAI says it can. Still a good idea to talk about it with your opponent / Tournament Official before hand.

[Grimtooth]

A"ctually it is pretty simple.

 

An IC with Saga of the Hunter can Outflank.

 

An IC is part of a unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where it is a unit of its own.

 

"If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank......"

 

An IC with Saga of the Hunter joined to a Wolf Scout is part of that unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where it fights as a unit of its own.

 

"When that Wolf Scout unit; which the IC with Saga of the Hunter is part of for all intents and purposes except close combat, makes use of its ability to outflank,....."

 

 

Saga of the Hunter does not need to give OBEL to allow the IC to use it, the IC being part of the Wolf Scout unit only needs tobe able to outflank, which the saga grants him. OBEL is not a USR, it is only how a Wolf Scout unit uses the outflank rule.

 

The only two requirements for OBEL are that you a part of a Wolf Scout unit and can outflank. An IC with Saga of the Hunter that has joined a Wolf Scout unit fulfills both of those requirements.

[Forté]

Typically classic example of GW and the way the cause confusion with their wording.

 

Justifying it that way Brother Ramses makes sense. Just clearing it with your opponent before starting will save any arguments later on.

[Rain Finale]

That's a good justification, Ramses, making the distinction between BEL being a specific special rule as opposed to a universal special rule like outflank. Off of the top of my head, I can't think of any other non-universal special rules in the Space Wolf codex that don't apply if an IC has joined them. As mentioned before, Long Fangs Fire Control rule works along with an IC.

[Grimtooth]

That's a good justification, Ramses, making the distinction between BEL being a specific special rule as opposed to a universal special rule like outflank. Off of the top of my head, I can't think of any other non-universal special rules in the Space Wolf codex that don't apply if an IC has joined them. As mentioned before, Long Fangs Fire Control rule works along with an IC.

 

Well by the standard that some people have proposed in this thread, and IC that joined Ragnar would not be able to benefit from Insane Bravado or War Howl because it is listed in Ragnar's special rules and not the IC.

 

The most very basic argument for IC with SotH being able to OBEL is that the very description of OBEL specifies the Wolf Scout unit, not Wolf Scouts, but the Wolf Scout unit. That alone makes it so that an IC joining that can Outflank, can OBEL as part of the Wolf Scout unit.

[Blitzkrieg861]

That's a little different though. Ragnar's entry specificly states him and the unit that joins him gain the +D3 attack bonus.

[Grimtooth]

That's a little different though. Ragnar's entry specificly states him and the unit that joins him gain the +D3 attack bonus.

 

And the OBEL entry says, "when the Wolf Scout unit outflanks" not "when the Wolf Scouts outflank". It is the exact same thing because both address the unit being able to do something, not the individual models.

[Valerian]

That's a little different though. Ragnar's entry specificly states him and the unit that joins him gain the +D3 attack bonus.

 

And the OBEL entry says, "when the Wolf Scout unit outflanks" not "when the Wolf Scouts outflank". It is the exact same thing because both address the unit being able to do something, not the individual models.

 

And, as BR stated, the unit includes an IC when attached, as attached characters always count as part of a unit, except in close combat where special additional rules and procedures apply.

 

V