Of DIY, Founding and Geneseeds

[maligncomedy]

First and Foremost this is important to say, that in no way, shape, or form am I condemning those who choose to avoid the Lost Legions/Traitor Legions, or that I am supporting the use of their geneseed. What I am simply aiming to do here is present ideas where, if built off upon, could lead to a space marine chapter that may or may not use their geneseeds. Why am I doing this? Generally, the use of traitor geneseeds or those of the Unknown legions is seen as a cardinal sin of sorts. And not without good justification. Don't get me wrong, some of the reasons that people have against the use of said geneseeds are more then valid. But in the end, I see it as a stifling of creativity (atleast how many people react adversely immediately to the situation without giving the person a chance - although B&C has generally taken a constructive approach to this). DIY has always been a sort of haven to me. As a metaphorical concept I mean. A place where, one who dares to think or create outside the box, has his artistic freedom to do so. This unneeded stomping down upon the ideas of others irritates me. Like I said before, they have their reasons. I respect that and their right to believe what they wish. But I do not believe one should enforce his personal beliefs upon others, and this is in essence what I encounter happening. I view this as relatively similar to the concept of female space marines. A choice on the interpretation of fluff that seems to breed enmity.

 

 

 

So we will start of by looking at the Geneseeds that are to be avoided:

 

Legion II

Legion XI

Space Wolves

And the Traitor Legions

 

 

 

And as Rogue Trader (I believe thats who Ferrata quoted in the Guide to DIY) expertly put it, here are a few reasons as to why you should generally avoid them:

 

Don’t use Space Wolf gene-seed for your chapter

The Space Wolves had one successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, and they were disbanded due to genetic instability. The Space Wolf gene-seed is extremely unstable and no other chapter can survive with it. If you want to use the Space Wolf codex, it is easier to come up with other reasons why the chapter has such rules instead of using the gene-seed reason.

 

Don’t claim your chapter is one of the missing legions

Keeping the two missing legions unknown is part of the greatest charm of the 40k universe, not everything is known. We don’t what happened to them, we don’t know why they were expunged from the records and we don’t want to know.

 

Don’t claim your chapter is from a traitor legion

The traitor legions, how ever cool, are traitors. When their Primarchs turned to chaos, they all turned. Those who didn’t were quickly killed, or a small handful escaped on the Eisenhorn. Do not have your chapter be a section of a traitor legion which remained loyal during the Heresy or decided to switch back sometime between now and then. The Imperium is an untrustworthy place, and prefers to kill first and maybe ask questions later.

 

Don’t claim your chapter is part of the second founding

GW has the second founding locked, bar the missing seven Ultramarine successors which have never been named. Whilst it has been known for Black Library to crowbar a chapter into the second founding, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea which should be repeated.

 

 

 

Now lets work off this one by one. My thoughts on Founding periods:

 

The second founding is as far as I know it locked.

It happened at 021M31.

And gave birth to the following list: Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermillion, Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers, Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Vengeance, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers, Brazen Claw, Red Talons, Black Guard, Raptors, Revilers, Wolf Brothers, Aurora Chapter, Black Consuls, Doom Eagles, Eagle Warriors, Genesis Chapter, Inceptors, Libators, Mortifactors, Nemesis, Novamarines, Patriarchs of Ulixis, Praetors of Orpheus, Silver Eagles, White Consuls, Destroyers, Marauders, Rampagers, Storm Lords. And I do agree with the resounding feeling that one should not crowbar their chapter into the seconding founding like Black Library does.

 

Now, via the Fantasy Flight Games book "Rites of Battle" we see an interesting option. 31st Millenium as a date for the founding of a chapter. Amongst other earlier dates (M33 and M32 being very interesting choices). This is important for a few reasons. Firstly, that one could feasibly have a chapter created during the M31 year. One doesn't need to be from a specific founding. Atleast that I am aware of. For example, the Grey Knights (although this may be a bad example in retrospect) were created before the Second Founding if I recall correctly but I would advise against that route. Although it would not be unfeasible to have a chapter created after the Second Founding yet within the same M31 year.

 

Additional early foundings being M32 to M36 are generally what I would consider early. There were atleast 2 Chapters in M33 one of which wasn't even given a real "exact" date of their founding. Now this is important info. For one main reason. Isstvan V was when the records of the Unknown Legions were destroyed. Very important info to remember. Two points of note that are additionally important. First, the Third Founding of 001.M32 has almost no information. This would be a good area to start if you desire an early founding chapter. And secondly, M36 is worth a look at. The canon on that founding pretty much states that the details are unknown. No idea how many chapters were made and how many still exist. Also, the Adeptus Terra does not possess records of the original geneseed that was used in the creation of the chapters.

 

Another point of interest is 546M32. During this year, was the Beheading in which the Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum killed of the High Lords of Terra which then plunged the Imperium into a state of chaos. A founding in such times would be very difficult to track the records of.

 

 

 

 

The next important topic is the Space Wolf Geneseed. And I agree with the sentiment here. One should not use, them as a geneseed source for a chapter. The only known successor was the Wolfbrothers and they were disbanded and destroyed for genetic instability. There were a few survivors but they fled to chaos and are a poor example to use for the access of a geneseed.

 

Wolves function differently. We all agree upon that. Rather then have a Chapter they have a company. Which is where a similar concept pops up. Lost Companies or 13th Companies are the equivalent of what would be seen as a successor chapter. In short, Leman Russ supported individuality amongst his "children". As White Dwarf put it:

 

‘Amongst most Space Marine Chapters such behaviour would be viewed as a fatal breach of discipline, those involved would be declared renegade and mercilessly hunted down. However, the Space Wolves Primarch, Leman Russ, was always renowned for his independence and impetuosity and I believe these traits remain predominantly with the Chapter. The oaths of fealty undertaken by the Wolf Lords of the Space Wolves Great Companies declare their allegiance to Russ and the Emperor but do not stipulate servitude to the Great Wolf.

 

It appears that in some cases a Wolf Lord and his Grand Company separate from the main body of the Chapter, undertaking their own quests and missions for a variety of reasons. […] This may be related to the Space Wolves’ ancient quest to find their lost Primarch.

 

As to the long term viability of these ‘lost companies’ it is difficult to say. Given sufficient geneseed and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a company to maintain is strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal Chapter. Less well-supplied companies might have to resort to training ordinary humans to fill their ranks or face the prospect of gradually dwindling numbers until the company ceases to exist.’

 

As time goes by, sometimes Companies leave. Could be a variety of reasons. Suggestions have been things such as distance, pride, single-minded focus to a mission or cause, a crusade or hunt, or even duty to a region. More information can be found in the Eye of Terror and Chapter Approved.

 

In short, if you want to do a DIY Chapter with the Spacewolf geneseed, I would suggest going the route of the Lost Companies, although it may be easier to argue that the Space Wolf Codex better represents the theme or tactics of the army you wish to play/develop.

 

 

 

Now as for Traitor legion or Unknown Legion geneseed. That is something extremely hard to justify. It might be simpler to allude to it. You could say your chapter descends off another chapter with an unknown geneseed. Some other suggestions might be that their geneseed bears similarities to the Blood Ravens (since they do not know who their source is - although, this is both a speculative and this only raises them to candidates at best and even in that respect from my interpretation their geneseed is more likely from the Thousand Sons then an unknown legion). A better choice would to state that their geneseed bears similarities to/is from those of the Storm Wardens. For those who don't know:

 

The Storm Wardens (whose founding is prior to M36) participated in an event involving the infestation of enslavers. What happened when they found them in the ruins is unknown. But afterwards, the Chapter Master had a conversation with an Inquisitor Lord of the Ordo Xenos. They reached a decision, and after which, the High Lords of Terra sealed off a chunk of the Storm Warden's Fortress-monastery. Furthermore, the entire First Company was sealed off in stasis including the Chapter Master, and the dreadnoughts took vows of silence and currently stand guard over the chambers of the stasis held marines.

 

If reasons sufficed, and the situation was applicable/similar, one could have similar incidents happen to his/her chapter. So having an unknown geneseed isn't completely ruled out. Just rather complicated.

 

That being said, in the note of traitor legions, both Garro and Qruze are hinted as having been placed in positions where "men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos" are needed. Furthermore Garro has been hinted at as having helped found an organization that resists/combats enemies of the Emperor.

 

Once again, I reiterate, I'm not supporting the idea, or condemning it, just making suggestions as to how one would be able to incorporate it.

 

 

 

Now once again referring to the second source material (which I am only using cause the tables inside make it quick, easy, and help flesh out an idea rather efficiently for the time taken), "Rites of Battle", I'm going to just draft up a quick example of a chapter with an unknown geneseed:

 

 

(Insert Chapter Name Here)

 

-Founded through Strategic Prognostication (basically the Emperor's Tarot says that a chapter is needed and they make it - in this case the reason was left unspecified)

-Founded in early M32 or Late M31. Exact date is unknown as data was lost during the chaos that ensued after the Beheading. But other Imperium records denote their presence around said times.

-Their Geneseed is unknown and of a Flawed purity (this further complicates attempts to trace it back to the original founding chapter)

-As a result, on the flawed table I chose "We Stand Alone". In short, for various reasons, the Chapter is distrusted by the Imperium despite their loyalty and are unlikely to ally with them.

-The Chapter's hero, was a Battle Brother from the founding chapter/legion. He contributed the geneseed as well as took an active role as the Chapter Master. Despite his many accomplishments in the name of the Emperor and the Imperium of man, he was slain by a Vindicare Assassin of the Officio Assassinorum whilst on the field of battle. The reason why he was targeted is unknown and as a result the chapter distrusts the Officio Assassinorum.

-They rarely see eye-to-eye with the Inquisition and seem to have enemies within the Administratum (and Historical Revision Unit) for unknown reasons

-They are a fleet based chapter with a damaged fleet. This also places their overall strength as endangered. With the lack of trust and general backing of the Imperium they are risking extinction.

-They are a chapter with a unique organization (this is just for codex choice reasons). Similar to that of the Black Templar.

-They are also lacking in Librarians. Members of this chapter compared to nulls as psychic powers generally don't work on them(Abhor the Witch Destroy the Witch).

-The chapter displays very Death Cult-ish beliefs. Despite their unyielding loyalty to the Emperor, they feel that they have been forsaken to a degree. They do not hesitate to carry out any order of the Imperium, but are confident in that their inevitable end will come to closure by a complete erasure of their existence for whatever reasons plague them.

 

 

 

One could simply allude that the above chapter may be from a Traitor Geneseed or possibly even an Unknown Legion's geneseed. Fact remains it is unknown (due to complications of time of the founding and situations involved), and the Imperium doesn't like that and attempts to further end their strain (eg. assassination of the hero - and should one want to continue, possibly the entire first generation leaving only those unaffiliated with the original chapter master to continue the chapter). Which only serves to help the suggestion. With some tweaking and creative criticism, that could possibly turn out to be a well written and thought out chapter.

 

 

 

 

In short, by posting this what I desire to accomplish is to start discussion. Doing something different isn't wrong. Sometimes you just need a little bit of guidance to do it in a manner that best represents integrity the community that is associated with the hobby as to not come off balatantly insulting. That being said, feel free to chew me out and/or contribute relevant information.

[Ecritter]

I would agree that the use of Traitor Geneseed is a hard sell here at B&C, but that being said my White Hand Chapter uses Word Bearer Geneseed and was accepted into the Librarium. Its not impossible is all I'm saying, just takes some creative ideas to get it moving.

 

Overall, I do see an adversion to the use of Traitor and Lost Legion Geneseed, but that should not be taken as an attempt to hold anyone back. Just an effort to push for greater justification. All in all, I'd say that any idea is well recieved here at B&C.

 

I don't submit my Chapter as a perfect example of how to get a Chapter with Traitor Geneseed, merely as an example of B&Cs ability to work with those writers wishing to do so.

[NightrawenII]

@maligncomedy

 

Your argumentation and reasoning is flawed and in all honesty missing the point of "Don'ts of DIY". Generally speaking, the "Don'ts" are here to discourage the new DIYers from repeating the past mistakes and draws their attention to the problems the "Don'ts" brings.

Another thing with "Don'ts" is that they are hard to justify and often clash with the Universe rather than to mesh with the Universe (thanks Apothete :huh: ). Even if the DIYer puts some effort to justify such "clash", it's often not smooth enough. For this reason it's advised against, because the outcome might not be worth the effort.

Lastly, this is the matter of the creativity vs. uniqueness for the uniqueness sake. The female marines are prime example of this. The new and "ignorant" DIYer is still exploring the lore and thinks, that the female marines are good idea, because every Space marine Chapter is male only. Difference doesn't make your Chapter interesting or imaginative, only unique.

 

In my personal opinion, the DIYer should aim to explore and fill the blanks in the W40k lore, not exploit and thrusts himself in the blanks of the W40k lore. In my book, "creative" means follow the rules and work in the restraints of Universe in order to produce something, which is true to W40k lore.

For me anything, what is not true or add odds with W40k lore, pays great disrespect to the Universe, we all love.

 

Oh and btw the White Hands Chapter was accepted with teeth grinding and is *still* loathed by some Liberites. ;)

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

In the end you're not really restricted by any guidelines we lay down or advise you to follow.

 

Whether you're successful in your endeavors relies solely on both how creative you are and how well you structure that creativity within the bounds of the universe you're writing for.

 

Really, the 'Do's and Don'ts' of DIY creation are more of a list of 'we've all done these things before, we discovered they don't work very easily' type of deal.

 

Some things though really are next to impossible to pull off in the realm of popular opinion. Lost Legions, Loyalist Traitors (for the most part), Female Marines and Secret Legions are all things that are so hard to pull off it may as well be impossible and usually wouldn't be worth the extreme amount of effort required.

 

That said, you're only really limited by the quality of your writing. You write something well enough and justify it well enough to allow people to suspend their disbelief and you've got a winner.

 

The reason most of us do 'normal' DIY's is because we want to own a little normal part of the 40k universe, we want to be a part of that greater whole rather than figuring out it's mysteries or pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable.

 

At the end of the day, it's your choice, but don't expect people to cheer for you just because you're taking on a difficult task.

 

 

 

There are times when you wants to stand out from the crowd, and times when we want to feel like a part of it.

[Ecritter]

Oh and btw the White Hands Chapter was accepted with teeth grinding and is *still* loathed by some Liberites. :angry:

 

I did say they were merely an example.

 

The community did accept them though, and that was the point I was getting at. I fully support this community (most of the time). I also believe its a great community, and will work with someone to aid them in getting their ideas to fit into the 40k universe ... unless that idea is so far out as to leave that option completely impossible.

[Electrolytes]

This is really helpful thanks for taking the time to post it :angry:

[maligncomedy]

@maligncomedy

 

Your argumentation and reasoning is flawed and in all honesty missing the point of "Don'ts of DIY". Generally speaking, the "Don'ts" are here to discourage the new DIYers from repeating the past mistakes and draws their attention to the problems the "Don'ts" brings.

Another thing with "Don'ts" is that they are hard to justify and often clash with the Universe rather than to mesh with the Universe (thanks Apothete :D ). Even if the DIYer puts some effort to justify such "clash", it's often not smooth enough. For this reason it's advised against, because the outcome might not be worth the effort.

Lastly, this is the matter of the creativity vs. uniqueness for the uniqueness sake. The female marines are prime example of this. The new and "ignorant" DIYer is still exploring the lore and thinks, that the female marines are good idea, because every Space marine Chapter is male only. Difference doesn't make your Chapter interesting or imaginative, only unique.

 

In my personal opinion, the DIYer should aim to explore and fill the blanks in the W40k lore, not exploit and thrusts himself in the blanks of the W40k lore. In my book, "creative" means follow the rules and work in the restraints of Universe in order to produce something, which is true to W40k lore.

For me anything, what is not true or add odds with W40k lore, pays great disrespect to the Universe, we all love.

 

Oh and btw the White Hands Chapter was accepted with teeth grinding and is *still* loathed by some Liberites. :D

 

Obviously you are misinterpreting what I have written. Time and time again I stated that I am not justifying anything. What I was suggesting was as Grey Hunter Ydalir put it:

 

In the end you're not really restricted by any guidelines we lay down or advise you to follow.

 

Whether you're successful in your endeavors relies solely on both how creative you are and how well you structure that creativity within the bounds of the universe you're writing for.

 

Really, the 'Do's and Don'ts' of DIY creation are more of a list of 'we've all done these things before, we discovered they don't work very easily' type of deal.

 

Some things though really are next to impossible to pull off in the realm of popular opinion. Lost Legions, Loyalist Traitors (for the most part), Female Marines and Secret Legions are all things that are so hard to pull off it may as well be impossible and usually wouldn't be worth the extreme amount of effort required.

 

That said, you're only really limited by the quality of your writing. You write something well enough and justify it well enough to allow people to suspend their disbelief and you've got a winner.

 

Think of it this way,

 

1. A person has an idea

2. They express the idea to a community in which their idea is involved in

3. They are immediately hit with a wall of negative response

 

That form of criticism is like running into a brick wall. Rather then take the time to help foster the idea, suggest alternatives based upon their desires or additional reading that may prove constructive, many of these ideas are seen as heretical and dealt with as such. By this I mean, that despite our collective knowledge, rather then build upon or relocate the bastion that shall be a new chapter, many of the hobby choose to tear it down. Which is something I disagree with.

 

Which would be where I respectfully disagree with you Nightrawen. I do not view the action of creating chapters within said parameters as exploitation of blank spots. But merely as an attempt to help fill the void. That is if one does so in a respective manner. Which was why I was briefly outlining areas that may help fellow DIYers with beginning research. I would personally rather try to help someone find information and justify their concept so that high quality work is turned out rather then tell them it is wrong all together and prevent a possible masterpiece.

 

Like I said time and time again before. I am not justifying or arguing for or against anything. Just suggesting some points of reference or further research for those who desire to go down the roads of the unorthodox.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

well realistically you can make any legion you want, it is up to the individual to consider if it is too bold or just interesting.

 

personaly i cant stand amazing elements to any chapter being added with no justification (but i may still like your chapter anyway :D )

 

But if you were to make a chapter with traitor geneseed and really really really X THE POWER OF GREYSKULL justified it (even if the veteran fluff nuts disliked it) you would still capture the interest of many more casual 40k fluff players :D

[Octavulg]

Traitor geneseed's easy. The problem with traitor geneseed is the frequent lack of subtlety surrounding it. People often are quite blatant and explicit about it, which turns it from "figure out the chapter's secret" to "thank you for beating my head in with a particularly hoary plot device".

 

Many ideas that are in the DIY list of don'ts can be done just fine if treated carefully. That's why it's the DIY Guide, as opposed to the DIY Ironclad Rules of All-That-Is. The guide is quite clear about how these aren't divine pronouncements which cannot be infringed. Instead, these are things that are hard to do well, and doing them badly will irk people.

 

As a general rule, the people who set out to ignore the rules don't usually have the talent to get away with it.

[Blackrat]

You know, I don't really understand the "don't use the unknown legions" guideline. I always thought GW left those two unknowns exactly for the reason that people could make their owns...

[Octavulg]

Well, there's a few reasons:

 

1) People like a good mystery. Filling it in spoils things for them. (First person to go on about how "but people shouldn't be bothered by what other people do" gets something unkind said to them. Doesn't matter if they should be. They are. That simple)

 

2) Most of the people who leap to doing lost legions out of the gate have a reach that rather exceeds their grasp.

 

3) Your idea for why we've never heard of them is going to have to be either wildly over the top, wildly out of left field, or wildly pointless. None of these are good. And I've yet to see someone try it without whipping out the old "lost in the warp".

 

The guidelines are generally not "don't do this, it's not justifiable in accordance with the fluff". It's "if you insist on doing this, an idea we have seen before a million times, and doing it badly, as those million times did, we will be officially Not Impressed".

 

In short, it's an attempt to get people with more ambition than skill from tripping over themselves. It often fails, because people with more ambition than skill have more ambition than they do skill. Funny, that.

[Lord Scytha]

You know, I don't really understand the "don't use the unknown legions" guideline. I always thought GW left those two unknowns exactly for the reason that people could make their owns...

 

Don’t claim your chapter is one of the missing legions

Keeping the two missing legions unknown is part of the greatest charm of the 40k universe, not everything is known. We don’t what happened to them, we don’t know why they were expunged from the records and we don’t want to know.

 

Actually, there is a difference between this and the question of using their geneseed.

 

The AdMech stores large amounts of geneseed gathered from the founding legions and all following created chapters to be used as the base for new chapters.

Now we know that the traitor legions geneseed still exists and is time locked in stasis while the geneseed from the loyalists legions is still used to found new chapters with.

Therefore it's logical to assume that the lost legions geneseed falls into one of these categories.

 

Let's speculate:

Now if the reason why one or both lost legions were lost was because they joined Horus or in some other way betrayed the emperor then their geneseed would also be locked in stasis.

On the other hand if the reason that they were lost was because their primarch for some reason never were reunited with the legion and they were disbanded or because they were destroyed in battle like it was extremely close as what happened to both the Salamanders and the Raven Guard at Isatavan then there is no reason why their geneseed whould not be available for successive foundings.

 

So while claiming that your chapter is one of the lost legions is a big NO NO; claiming that your chapter was founded using geneseed from a lost legion should theoretically be possible provided it was done believable.

 

For example: Chapter X was founding during a massive founding at a time when the imperium desperately needed large numbers of new chapters. Because of the large number of new chapters the stored amounts of geneseed became severely depleted and the AdMech was forced to use geneseed of unknown origin for the chapter. All that was know about its history was that the geneseed belonged to the loyalist faction but that it couldn't trace its line to any of the known loyalist legions.

 

That certainly sounds like chapter X might stem from one of the lost legions but at the same time it could just suffer from crappy bookkeeping.

[NightrawenII]

Think of it this way,

 

1. A person has an idea

2. They express the idea to a community in which their idea is involved in

3. They are immediately hit with a wall of negative response

 

That form of criticism is like running into a brick wall. Rather then take the time to help foster the idea, suggest alternatives based upon their desires or additional reading that may prove constructive, many of these ideas are seen as heretical and dealt with as such. By this I mean, that despite our collective knowledge, rather then build upon or relocate the bastion that shall be a new chapter, many of the hobby choose to tear it down. Which is something I disagree with.

The problem here is what Octavulg said, "As a general rule, the people who set out to ignore the rules don't usually have the talent to get away with it." The justification and explanation of such idea(s) is more often than not paper-thin and crumble under 'any' attempt of close examination.

 

Generally, the idea is not targeted, because is one of "Don'ts of DIY", but because it's not creative nor imaginative, it's execution and plausibility is severely lacking and it doesn't contribute anything else than uniqueness for uniqueness sake... or any random combination of these.

 

For example, I'm against unknown gene-seed. Not because it's hard to justify or unlikely in-universe, but because it's in most cases laziness on authors part.

I'm not against Lost Legion because it's hard to justify or explain in-universe, but because the "Lost" part is what makes them interesting, explaining and telling us what happened simply destroy this charm.

 

Which was why I was briefly outlining areas that may help fellow DIYers with beginning research. I would personally rather try to help someone find information and justify their concept so that high quality work is turned out rather then tell them it is wrong all together and prevent a possible masterpiece.

This is my personal opinion, based on my own experience:

You know, after all this research, attempts/fails, brain-storming and whatnot, the DIYer is going to realize that there is no need for ANY of these things in order to make the IA interesting or imaginative. And then he will be really creative.... Draw your own conclusion.

[Aegnor]

Lol, just wait til I unleash my 2nd legion IA on you guys the "Clint Norrises". Turns out the Emperor was so scared by their awesomeness he shot them through a convenient wormhole. They emerged in another galaxy, where they kicked so much ass that the Tyranids decided to abandon that galaxy and head for the relative safety of the Milky Way - that's right the Norrises are what the Nids fleets are running from. It's going to be awesome! -_-

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I think I just died a little inside....

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Lol, just wait til I unleash my 2nd legion IA on you guys the "Clint Norrises". Turns out the Emperor was so scared by their awesomeness he shot them through a convenient wormhole. They emerged in another galaxy, where they kicked so much ass that the Tyranids decided to abandon that galaxy and head for the relative safety of the Milky Way - that's right the Norrises are what the Nids fleets are running from. It's going to be awesome! :tu:

 

Back when I was running the Liber Astartes website there was a Chapter in which the Marines believed that Elvis was the Emperor and their quest was to find him. :P

 

 

As a general rule, the people who set out to ignore the rules don't usually have the talent to get away with it.

 

Unfortunately this type of attitude is one of the problems in this forum of late. Someone having the talent shouldn't matter. They are posting here to get help with their idea, not ground into dust by being repeatedly beaten because their idea doesn't line up with some groups idea of what is the "proper way" to make a Chapter.

 

People submitting Chapters here are no different than those in PCA submitting a mini for the first time. They are looking for help to improve, not get brow beaten into towing a line. It can be daunting to a new person to the forums to post a Chapter here because the "norm" these days is to mud-stomp stuff that isn't perfectly following the fluff. It shouldn't be happening to the level that it does and it is something the Mods will be addressing in the near future.

 

The second founding is as far as I know it locked.

It happened at 021M31.

And gave birth to the following list: Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermillion, Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers, Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Vengeance, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers, Brazen Claw, Red Talons, Black Guard, Raptors, Revilers, Wolf Brothers, Aurora Chapter, Black Consuls, Doom Eagles, Eagle Warriors, Genesis Chapter, Inceptors, Libators, Mortifactors, Nemesis, Novamarines, Patriarchs of Ulixis, Praetors of Orpheus, Silver Eagles, White Consuls, Destroyers, Marauders, Rampagers, Storm Lords. And I do agree with the resounding feeling that one should not crowbar their chapter into the seconding founding like Black Library does.

 

Now, via the Fantasy Flight Games book "Rites of Battle" we see an interesting option. 31st Millenium as a date for the founding of a chapter. Amongst other earlier dates (M33 and M32 being very interesting choices). This is important for a few reasons. Firstly, that one could feasibly have a chapter created during the M31 year. One doesn't need to be from a specific founding. Atleast that I am aware of. For example, the Grey Knights (although this may be a bad example in retrospect) were created before the Second Founding if I recall correctly but I would advise against that route. Although it would not be unfeasible to have a chapter created after the Second Founding yet within the same M31 year.

 

Keep in mind here that we know from the Apocrypha of Skaros that not all the Chapters of the 2nd Founding have been named (at least from the Ultramarines), so GW has given folks a bit of window here. I wouldn't do it personally but the window is there for those who want to.

 

In regards to Rites of Battle. There are some fairly handy charts in that book for creating your own Chapter. As part of the play testing group we got to put some input in on them (though not all of it was taken), so we think they are pretty solid for the most part. There are a few charts that are umm....not right we think but they didn't get changed after playtesting so what can you do.

 

Anyway the charts are great and highly recommended as a purchase for those who want to design up a Chapter but might be stuck at the gate. We are talking with FFG about making some the Charts available here in one form or another and hopefully we'll have some word on that by next week.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Most people who are regular Liberites are well aware I fully support using unusual geneseed, be it traitorous, or unknown. I do have a problem with 2nd Founding - simply make it 3rd and you are the same age, save a few decades - and a couple other dumb things, but that's mostly because they are dumb things.

 

Using unusual geneseed isn't bad - you just have to do it for the right reasons. Doing it to justify anything will probably get you nowhere, because your focus will be justifying the use of Codex X. Doing it because you want to write something that's good and worth taking note of, that is what will probably end well simply because your goal is to do it right.

 

Also - I completely agree with Kurgan, + 1 to his comments.

[Octavulg]

Unfortunately this type of attitude is one of the problems in this forum of late.

 

And your comment makes it very clear that you don't understand what I mean by the above.

 

Tell me. If someone in the PC&A posts unprimed miniatures that he has plastered with house paint five inches thick, is it unacceptable to tell him that's the wrong way to do things, and that his results are likely to disappoint unless he does something else?

 

It is possible to paint a nice miniature with house paint, I am sure. This is an infinite universe. However, most people will not have the skills to do so. Further to that, most people won't have a particular interest in helping them outside of morbid curiousity. So most advice will probably consist of "stop using house paint".

 

Now imagine someone shows up painting something with house paint every week. And there's a big guide at the top of the forum that says "you know, a lot of people have tried painting with house paint. It doesn't work well."

 

It is not a question of conforming to a "proper way" to make a chapter. It is a question of their ability to explain and justify their ideas not being remotely up to the task of doing so when they choose ideas like this. In those circumstances, saying "do something else" is not inappropriate. What may be inappropriate is the way a lot of people here are saying that. But that is a problem with how they say it, not with what they're saying.

 

Someone having the talent shouldn't matter. They are posting here to get help with their idea, not ground into dust by being repeatedly beaten because their idea doesn't line up with some groups idea of what is the "proper way" to make a Chapter.

 

Define 'help'.

 

No, seriously.

 

You see, it depends on what we're helping them do. Are we helping them make something people want to read? Helping them make something they like? Helping them spell whatever idea they have correctly? Because what is and is not appropriate varies heavily based on which of those you are attempting to do. Most people here assume that people are trying for the first one - in which case, it is appropriate (and even necessary) to tell them what you don't like and why you don't like it.

 

There may be a problem with people insisting you can't do things simply because it says you shouldn't in the DIY Guide. There is no problem with people telling others they cannot or should not do things, so long as you can back that statement up.

 

What people on both sides of this seem to be overlooking is that the DIY Guide is crammed with disclaimers about how these aren't hard and fast rules and you can try them if you want - it's just that people don't like them.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

What may be inappropriate is the way a lot of people here are saying that. But that is a problem with how they say it, not with what they're saying.

 

See, you got the gist of it at the end there. :)

[Leonaides]

Oops - replied in the completely wrong topic... D'oh!

 

Now I'm here I suppose I may as well try and contribute something vaguely useful though.

 

You see, it depends on what we're helping them do. Are we helping them make something people want to read? Helping them make something they like? Helping them spell whatever idea they have correctly? Because what is and is not appropriate varies heavily based on which of those you are attempting to do. Most people here assume that people are trying for the first one - in which case, it is appropriate (and even necessary) to tell them what you don't like and why you don't like it.

 

Should we have some kind of 'level' of commenting?

 

For instance:

Level 1 - basics like cannon chapter name corections, significant date corrections (like not havin ga 20th Founding chapter created to fight Tyranids, etc), background errors (like someone deciding to do a 21st Founding chapter who have no flaws at all). Really the simplest errors that do crop up now and then, in an attempt to 'rough out' the document. Basics of implantation/recruitment/training and progression... that sort of thing.

 

Level 2 - Bit stricter, IA to be 'queried' in more detail.

 

Level 3 - Throw the proverbial kitchen sink at them...

 

Would this even be possible to do?

[Ecritter]

Ladies, Gents and general loiterers... Shall we get back on track with 'constructive' comments for the OP? Maybe another thread for debating what is/isnt appropriate form of commenting/ what sort of comments people want is appropriate - but do it elsewhere.

 

Telling the B&C Admisitration to take their comments elsewhere ... well it might not be the best idea. :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Back when I was running the Liber Astartes website there was a Chapter in which the Marines believed that Elvis was the Emperor and their quest was to find him. :P

 

As a Comedy Chapter this would be an awesome idea, I approve and so do the Star Hippos of Orion.

 

 

On a more topical note:

 

What some people seem to misunderstand is that as soon as you put your thoughts into a public arena you invite criticism, be it constructive or otherwise; you don't like someones opinion, that's cool as you're under no obligation to listen, but you can't complain that they criticise.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Ladies, Gents and general loiterers... Shall we get back on track with 'constructive' comments for the OP? Maybe another thread for debating what is/isnt appropriate form of commenting/ what sort of comments people want is appropriate - but do it elsewhere.

 

Telling the B&C Admisitration to take their comments elsewhere ... well it might not be the best idea. <_<

 

 

Well he has a point, we are pulling this off topic, which was not my intent. So to get back to the topic at hand.

 

The Guidelines are just that, guidelines. Not hard and fast rules.

 

"DO THIS OR WE WILL BAN YOU!!!!!" is not the point of the guidelines. The guidelines are simply there to help folks get their ideas more in line with the generally accepted framework of the 40k Universe (up to a point). You can follow them or not at your leisure.

[Octavulg]

Kurgan:

 

See, you got the gist of it at the end there.

 

And that's fine. But what I was talking about was why it's OK to tell people they shouldn't do things. The fact that a lot of people here don't back their statements up appropriately or seem to have much consideration for the author any more is a separate issue. <_<

 

"DO THIS OR WE WILL BAN YOU!!!!!" is not the point of the guidelines. The guidelines are simply there to help folks get their ideas more in line with the generally accepted framework of the 40k Universe (up to a point). You can follow them or not at your leisure.

 

And if you don't like people not following them, you can ignore the hell out of those people. It works very well.

 

* * *

 

Leonaides:

 

Would this even be possible to do?

 

As a general rule, those who need help will not take it. I think you could have such a system. What you'd get would be:

 

On the writing side:

People not noticing the system (how many people miss the DIY Guide, hmmm?)

People not using the system

People saying they wanted one level when what they really wanted was another, but they think they're awesome.

The system not accomodating everything

People disagreeing over what each level constituted

 

On the critiquing/reading side:

People not noticing the system

People not using the system

People saying they were critiquing at one level when they are really doing another, but sneakily hiding it behind something else.

People disagreeing over what each level constituted

 

So what you have now, but more formalized. ;)

 

CJJ:

 

As a Comedy Chapter this would be an awesome idea

 

I actually like it much better as a serious chapter. If handled deftly, it could work. And it would, oddly, thus be much funnier than as a comedy chapter. You can do a hell of a lot with people in the 41st millenium getting things completely wrong.

[maligncomedy]

Which was why I was briefly outlining areas that may help fellow DIYers with beginning research. I would personally rather try to help someone find information and justify their concept so that high quality work is turned out rather then tell them it is wrong all together and prevent a possible masterpiece.

This is my personal opinion, based on my own experience:

You know, after all this research, attempts/fails, brain-storming and whatnot, the DIYer is going to realize that there is no need for ANY of these things in order to make the IA interesting or imaginative. And then he will be really creative.... Draw your own conclusion.

 

But that is assuming that the DIYer does not find fulfillment in his quest. Though, neither of us can really state a definite answer here.

 

 

 

Keep in mind here that we know from the Apocrypha of Skaros that not all the Chapters of the 2nd Founding have been named (at least from the Ultramarines), so GW has given folks a bit of window here. I wouldn't do it personally but the window is there for those who want to.

 

In regards to Rites of Battle. There are some fairly handy charts in that book for creating your own Chapter. As part of the play testing group we got to put some input in on them (though not all of it was taken), so we think they are pretty solid for the most part. There are a few charts that are umm....not right we think but they didn't get changed after playtesting so what can you do.

 

Anyway the charts are great and highly recommended as a purchase for those who want to design up a Chapter but might be stuck at the gate. We are talking with FFG about making some the Charts available here in one form or another and hopefully we'll have some word on that by next week.

 

This additional information was something I was hoping for when I started this thread (the Apocrypha of Skaros remark). Despite my knowledge of the timeline and universe of 40k, there is still sources of fluff or general events etc that I don't immediately recognize as useful. Having others contribute suggestions could further help to point those who want to do an unorthodox geneseed chapter in a direction that is feasible and thought out. Although as Kurgan said, I would avoid sticking into the 2nd Founding as well.

 

Good news to hear about the Rites of Battle chart idea. That would be a wonderful addition in my opinion.