Of DIY, Founding and Geneseeds

[Leonaides]

Ecritter - sorry, but like I said - that was a mistake that I (somehow) managed to post in the wrong topic. I wouldnt 'normally' dare to pull the beard of a Mod or Admin... :D

 

Octavulg - That was what i was thinking would be likely problems with such an idea. Just too many hoels and potential errors, but maybe the formalising of what we attempt to do might help some people to be a bit more formal when replying (for formal, read polite). I know I dont always manage it, but I do try and take the time to come back to a thread and reply more fully if I've been a bit brusk for whatever reason.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Ecritter - sorry, but like I said - that was a mistake that I (somehow) managed to post in the wrong topic. I wouldnt 'normally' dare to pull the beard of a Mod or Admin...

 

Not to 'pull the beard' as it were but I think everyone's entitled to try to keep things moving. It's a community and while the mods and admins have the power to turn us all into slag, they aren't twitchy Game Server Mods (who seem to take adverse pleasure in the power of their position) or iron-fisted dictators.

 

It's not that you don't respect the position, but I think cowing unnecessarily just because is unhealthy for such a strong community focused board.

 

Well he has a point, we are pulling this off topic, which was not my intent. So to get back to the topic at hand.

 

QED.

 

Telling the B&C Admisitration to take their comments elsewhere ... well it might not be the best idea.

 

And this is what I'm talking about. Backing someone just because they are in a position of authority over you and no other reason is not a good attitude to have. I'll just have to make my own frowny face here in response. :lol:

 

(Disclaimer: I'm not trying to make myself a target! :P)

 

However, now I'm dragging things off topic. :no:

 

Though in attempting to return to the topic at hand, I'm not sure what else can be said.

[Octavulg]

Though in attempting to return to the topic at hand, I'm not sure what else can be said.

 

Pear pie is delicious.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

You sir, are a master of the unexpected.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Octavulg - It's still not an excuse to blast someone with hard logic and unflexible fluff.

 

Anyone remember the "This is the Liber"? How people felt when they came in and found there brainchild was killed like a rabbit in a foxhole? The feeling wasn't exactly pleasant, was it? That doesn't encourage people to come back - that encourages them to leave. They don't make any progress at all, and continue to go about with their poorly written fluff.

 

Yeah, you've seen the suggestion 15 million times. They don't know that. If they did, they would probably know the fluff that tells them that this a bad suggestion. Which means that they probably don't know the fluff all that well.

 

At which point the editor kindly points them towards the DIY guide. I have never read the thing because it is a beast to read. It's like those wall of text posts... broken up by some large headings, yes, still a huge wall of text. Very informative, well written (at least the bits and peices I looked over) but still too large to digest all at once.*

 

So what does the editor do, possibly instead of pointing them there?* Instead of simply saying that someone/something si wrong, offer alternatives. EX: XYZ wants a Space Wolf successor. Editor ABC suggests instead of having a Space Wolf successor, he can do the Lost Companies, develop a normal Company, or simply have an Ultramarine successor with unusual savageness/personalization/geneseed degradation/whatever.

 

This is changing their image of you from Drill Sergeant to Friendly Fluff Expert. Like that one guy who was raised in a military family who was going through boot camp with you. Now imagine that the Drill Sergeant no longer has authority over you (because in the internet, we're all created equal). Who are you more likely to listen to?

 

I apoligise for my rant, I simply have my own issues with people correcting other people too brutally. However, the reason I don't simply let it go and let the people with more experience do it is because if I have issues with it, I doubt I'm the only one.

 

 

 

Backing someone just because they are in a position of authority over you and no other reason is not a good attitude to have. I'll just have to make my own frowny face here in response. :down:

 

I completely agree with Ydalir - you shouldn't support someone merely because they have position of power. :D

 

 

 

*I sadly don't know this, but I'm assuming there isn't links at the top of the DIY guide page for each of the sections? IE: Linky to Homeworld guide?

[Octavulg]

Octavulg - It's still not an excuse to blast someone with hard logic and unflexible fluff.

 

But that is a separate issue. The problem is not with telling people they are wrong. It is with how you tell them, what you tell them they are wrong about, and how you back it up.

 

A lot of people here have taken to holding positions that are completely indefensible and doing so completely inflexibly. They also tend not to offer any positive comments or general comments, instead hauling flaws out of the IA and declaiming them as incorrect. But they are not wrong for doing that in and of itself - only for doing it when they can't back it up and without doing anything else.

 

In short, they're wrong because they're presenting their opinions badly and because half the time they can't back those opinions up when challenged, not because they tell people they're wrong.

 

*I sadly don't know this, but I'm assuming there isn't links at the top of the DIY guide page for each of the sections? IE: Linky to Homeworld guide?

 

There are links at the top of the DIY Guide which make it possible to browse the various sections quickly and easily - and it would have taken ten seconds for you to look. Maybe a minute, if you're somehow still on dialup. Critics should be willing to put forth reasonable effort to be helpful, but authors should be willing to put forth reasonable effort to the same degree.

 

Alternatives should be offered where possible (though, really, a reasonable explanation of why something is a mistake is far more useful than a listing of alternatives - alternatives can often narrow the author's focus, and direct him down paths that are not his own). The DIY Guide is currently weak on explanations in some aspects (where does it say the Space Wolves don't have successors, exactly?). There should be more explanations offered for what is said.

 

But you seem to want them because you don't want to do the work of finding out for yourself. And that's not a reasonable expectation either.

 

Seriously, dude. It's linked on the main page of the Liber. It would have taken you ten seconds to look.

[Donkey Kong]

Anyone remember the "This is the Liber"? How people felt when they came in and found there brainchild was killed like a rabbit in a foxhole? The feeling wasn't exactly pleasant, was it? That doesn't encourage people to come back - that encourages them to leave.

 

While cold and callous, sometimes it's better that way. I'll quote Ace Debonain's story in that thread. For the curious, it's here, Ace's story is in post 124

 

"Well, they have three thousand Space Marines," Deric began.

"No." Heru interrupted.

"With three veteran companies," Deric continued, ignoring the interruption.

"No." Shinzaren and Ydalir both chimed in at once.

"And their own Imperial Guard regiment." Deric concluded, angrily.

"No." Ace and the rest of the marines called out. The marine with the white handprint sighed.

 

While a comedy, this is basically the result of stubbornness on the author's end. If the author is willfully ignorant or headstrong, it can't be helped, and it's probably better that they don't get involved in putting fluff behind their Chapter because it will only aggravate them and everyone else who tries to help or redirect them. I'd quote Telveryon, but I believe the phrase has been patented at this point and I'd rather not pay to say what can be paraphrased with “It's not our job to make your Chapter for you,” and, as I would like to say to add on to that, “It's not the universe's place to meet the needs of your Chapter.”

 

As Octavulg so eloquently put it, we can "ignore the hell out of" them, and they'll probably be discouraged. I've seen enough bad material in my time here to know when something really needs to be scrapped and redone. Hell, sometimes people take the advice and actually do it. I'm doing it myself. Sometimes people don't know that what they've made just isn't good, and if they stop updating, it lets bad stuff sink to the back pages so we can sift through the new water flowing in and find the nuggets.

 

As someone with a Chapter in the Librarium, I'll say very plainly that I have never read the Guide to DIYing, and I've only skimmed Octavulg's guide. Put very simply, after reading popular threads in the forum, I didn't think I needed to. The IA that inspired me to write my own was Commissar Molotov's Castigators, and before I even joined here I lurked for a year or more to get a feel of the entire forum with both miniature and writing projects, news, rumors, reactions. I still lurk on other 40k forums, including The Ammobunker, Dakka Dakka, and Warseer. I got used to the atmosphere and direction of the forum before I even made my first post. The goal, as I understood it, was always to fit your work into the shared universe. Unfortunately, the best examples of these are in the Librarium, and sometimes I think navigating the warp would be easier than navigating the librarium.

 

The point about the Castigators is that they gave me the hope of creating a chapter as popular or as noteworthy, and while I don't think I've succeeded yet, I think I've gotten closer than most. At least they're not infamous for being bad. People who want to be different for the sake of being different are often the worst to deal with. Like Octavulg already said, they also usually lack the talent to do what they want to do, and fighting an uphill battle against everyone can't help make it any better. I can't say I remember enough of Doctor Thunder's work to say whether it was good or bad, but I remember a documentary style of writing about his Black Widows. There was one response to one of his threads on one of the many forums I frequent that will always stick with me, it goes along these lines "people who feel the need to write more to justify being different are more insecure than those who find a way to fit in the cracks with what they make." There's no reason to build a foundation when you already have a bare house to work with.

 

I am part of what I would call a fairly large group of frequenters of this forum who absolutely hate Ecritter's White Hands. I'll go on with others and say to friends I've made here that Ace Debonair's Stonebound bore me and Grey Hunter Ydalir's Blazing Sons have aspects I disagree with. Do I have any justifiable reason for this? No, not really. I don't believe one should exist, I'm not particularly fond of dwarves, and I don't believe that a Chapter would ever disown its training cadre. This is my opinion and while it's not very helpful, and I try to read through them and pick out errors, I really can't because I don't have any interest. It is the responsibility of authors to make their readers care. When I don't get replies, I assume that I failed to make my readers care, it's also usually why whenever I bump my threads I have several things going at once so someone may see something they'd like to poke at.

 

My interpretations have made me realize that I also loathe many official, or as close as to official as possible, pieces of material. I, along with others, do not like the Soul Drinkers or accept them as a Second Founding Chapter despite having never read them. I really don't like how the Horus Heresy has been playing out in the series either. As a member of the camp saying “Loken was a martyr, let the man stay dead”, it's annoying for me to hear that even the author wants him to return. As a fan of the Emperor's Children, I also found Fulgrim's fall from grace terribly disappointing. I've read several of the Imperial Armour Campaign volumes and I can only say that Vraks was one of the most aggravating examples of assumed Imperial stupidity, I gave up halfway through the third volume and skimmed the rest, and I absolutely hate Imperial Armour's Badab War, losing interest before I even hit the halfway point in the first volume. And I liked the Astral Claws. Let me rephrase that, I liked the Tiger Claws who became the Astral Claws who became whatever it is they became in this volume of nonsense.

 

Unfortunately for me, I loathe lots of fan material too. I hate Philip Sibbering's Philverse with a passion, most of all or its neutering of the Imperial Guard. I don't like the Fighting Tigers of Veda, I don't think that the miniatures are particularly well painted or unified, and I think that the fluff is more of an exercise in explanation and justification than in actual background fluff. I also dislike the Black Widows on principal, and I from what I remember I thought that the threads were full of animosity with people criticizing Doctor Thunder. It never helped me empathize with him when his replies were just as condescending.

 

There were many Chapters I wanted to see continued that fell by the wayside. Others stick in my mind for how mind bogglingly bad they were. The Children of Thorns didn't have much to them, but the author turned his focus to specialized equipment. When he was told that this makes his Chapter a Mary Sue, he dropped it. I liked the name too, which made their dead end a bummer for me.

 

There was one DIY for one of the lost legions called the Phoenix Guard. This author had his head so far up his own butt it wasn't even funny. I can't quote directly, and I really don't want to go searching, but the idea here was that Fulgrim saw the legion fighting and admired them so much he named his bodyguard after them. Yeah, no. Worst of all was when this person went on in their thread about how “for his gaming group, the Phoenix Guard are the lost legion”.

 

There was a comedy chapter called The Aristocracy. I thought the idea was hilarious, basically European royalty being recruited to serve in the Astartes but being catered to by attendants. All of the Space Marines had attack bikes and drivers. It was truly funny, dare I say funnier than the Cosmic Space Knights (… of Doom), and had a great Monty Python feel. Maybe I'll take a crack at it, my comedy has fallen by the wayside after the second failure of the Emperor's 9mm Uzis.

 

Personally, I think the problem still extends from the lack of any foundation for the background, but that's a discussion for another time. Personally, I'd rather be hit with honesty in criticism. However, I do think that there is good and bad in most of the material people present. It helps a lot more when people say what's good and what needs work than what just needs work because then there's no real assurance that the rest of it is acceptable for an individual. If an author is wrong, they should be told outright, and given a source. There's no reason for anyone to hide what they like or dislike, and everyone needs a little praise once in a while.

[Ferrata]

The DIY Guide is currently weak on explanations in some aspects (where does it say the Space Wolves don't have successors, exactly?). There should be more explanations offered for what is said.

Are you looking at my computer? I am currently working on changing the "Don'ts" to be more fluff backed instead of just saying that they are. Thankfully, the Female Marine discussion was already done for me by me (and Doctor Thunder).

 

At this moment, I will put aside any comments I feel to make as it is interesting to read what you people think over what I think. As Ydalir put it I don't want people "Backing someone just because they are in a position of authority over you". However, Ydalir, I will have to beat you for suggesting that people don't follow me. Do not bring about a rebellion :)

[Marshal Renatus]

As a long-time lurker and, unfortunately, limited-time poster...I'd just like to point out that when you enter the Liber you are doing so to present your material to a wide audience of fans and critics. And just like fans and critics are wont to do...they're going to give you their opinion. Considering that there is no limitation to who can join the forum (and I'm not advocating that, "Today's Fluff Test cover 21.M39 to 436.M40...") this means that anyone can offer their view on your masterpiece. Could be the hobbiest that just bought his first model, the Fluff Messiah, or somewhere in between. Add to that the fact that many posters' grammar, spelling, and sentence structure are less than clear, and you've got the perfect mix for miscommunication.

 

Now, I've been yelled at by Drill Instructors. I've been yelled at by General Officers, lol. And I can tell you, nothing I've seen on here comes close. That's a credit to the Mods who keep a civil house in this gray but fertile wasteland of opinion. One of the things I love about the Liber is that it's one of the few places on earth where a civil discussion can still be held between two parties that will never agree. While those parties get nothing out of the exchange beyond establishing their position, the rest of us garner all their fluff, opinions, concepts, and development ideas that we can then get our own genius ideas from. My point with this is that as authors we should expect to receive dents in our pretty little paradigm that we've foisted upon the Liber. It's what we came here for. Would we all prefer it be done with a tack hammer instead of a wrecking crane? Certainly. But the reality of most writers minds is that we need the bowling ball approach to make us rethink.

 

My own work in progress is a great example. (Shameless plug, links in the sig, C&C welcome) Had NightrawenII not absolutely eviscerated me on some points, I'd never have changed them. I thought they were too cool to lose. And he was gruff and sarcastic and used harsh language. And I hated him for about 24 hours. But then, like a mature, 98.6 degree, carbon-based lifeform over the age of 16, I got over it. I read what he wrote again. And he was right. And I changed the IA, and it was better for it.

 

You don't have to take everyones opinion that offers it, but you have to respect them for the fact that they took the time to read your work, analyze it, and provide some feedback on what was good, bad, or otherwise. My IA has had 954 views at last glance. Take out my own replies on the thread and that means that less than 10% of the people who read it actually left me something. And everyone of them left me something tangible and well-thought out in order to improve something they had no ownership of and were not responsible for in any way.

 

If the Mods think someone is being out of line, then they can contact that person and let them know. If a post is out of line, they can remove it. But I do not want an atmosphere created where people are allowing my product to suck because they are afraid of hurting my feelings. If you can't handle the comments, you shouldn't have posted. Failure to plan or research on the part of the author does not constitute a compelling reason for me not to inform them of such. The author stuck it out here for all to see, time to cowboy up and turn crap into diamonds. (Still nowhere close to getting yelled at by a General Officer :D )

 

So for my part, thanks to all who comment. Even if it's excoriating, brutal, and makes me feel about two inches tall. That's what I came here for. You want to work with the best, you better expect to amp your game up to match them. :tu:

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

However, Ydalir, I will have to beat you for suggesting that people don't follow me. Do not bring about a rebellion :P

 

Rebel! Rebel! Rebel!

 

As an aside, beatings will ensue until moral improves. Beginning with mine.

 

.... Self imposed penitence is out of the question then? :tu:

 

@KHK

 

That is one major piece you've written there and I have to say that without reservation I agree. I much rather hear why you disagree with what I've written in the Blazing Sons for what are valid reasons rather than just blindly continue on my merry way, blundering through the fluff and making my chapter unreadable.

 

@Everyone else.

 

(Disclaimer: I'm using capitalized 'Author' as a noun as your name, because we are all the 'Author' here in the Liber)

 

I totally agree that 'Honesty is the best policy'. It's a given.

 

My only gripe is when people are honest but entirely unhelpful in the same sentence. 'I don't like X in your chapter', ok, why? What can I do to improve it in your eyes? What would be another suggestion in your opinion to get around the problem?

 

What's needed is less of the harsh approach for the sake of it which has become a really annoying trend in the Liber lately and increasingly over the last year.

 

The Liber has a long and glorious list of 'rip and tear' "critiqueers" (yay for me creating a new term). Octy was one of the first and best remembered in my mind, even if he's gotten a bit more gentle in his old age. Apothete is very much an honest-to-goodness giver of advice and so are a very many other Librarium members who used to be simple Liberites like the rest of us.

 

However, what separates these guys from the rest of the more recent 'harsh' crowd is that they (nowadays at least) try to offer alternatives and suggestions, along with reasons why the things they pick out don't work.

 

Then there are the more gentle souls who give equally good advice but for the life of me I've never seen them lose their temper or get (too) stroppy when an Author is showing all the common sense of two bricks tied together. These saintly individuals are known to me as Commissar Molotov, Ace Debonair, Sigismund Himself and Aurelius Rex.

 

(As an aside, funny it's all the guys with Two-Word names are more mellow than the One-Word'ers, eh?)

 

The only problem with the gentle approach is that you have to be extremely detailed, justified and explanatory in your critique as the Author will sometimes simply not take the advice on-board, or misinterpret it as not being as bad as it is.

 

I prefer to argue, debate and throw things (when given the chance) at people who I deep to be making a bad decision. I think it works better, but only when coupled with proper, constructive suggestions for improvement.

 

More than a few people in the last few months have taken the 'harsh' approach and made it the 'idiot' approach, giving only their complaints and little else. NightwaranII was treading this line recently and I made several posts in opposition because I felt it wasn't right to simply bombard the Author with problems and insults for no reason. CantonWC recently started to get my back up with a similar attitude.

 

(As an aside I'm not calling you out by name in order to start an argument, I'm simply telling you how it is.)

 

No I'm not a mod or an admin or even a Librarium staffer. I am, however, bound by my own internal morality and ethics to oppose people voicing things that I think are unfair or poorly thought out.

 

As such I have spent increasing amounts of time on the Liber since I joined the B&C critiquing other peoples C&C as I do C&C the actual IA's themselves.

 

The things I respond poorly to are condescending attitudes, arrogant assumptions and being a bleating sheep. You're a sheep if you simply bandwagon for no other reason other than giving you the opportunity to pontificate against the Author.

 

 

 

...... Err, I think I rambled a bit there. I'll go do something constructive now. :D

[Ecritter]

(As an aside, funny it's all the guys with Two-Word names are more mellow than the One-Word'ers, eh?)

 

Not to be disagreeable ... but I disagree. Aegnor has shown recently that One-Word'ers can be very sane and helpful. :tu:

 

Generally, as a One-Word'er myself I do agree with you.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Octavulg - It's still not an excuse to blast someone with hard logic and unflexible fluff.

 

But that is a separate issue. The problem is not with telling people they are wrong. It is with how you tell them, what you tell them they are wrong about, and how you back it up.

 

And this is where we are not understanding each other, because it isn't truly a seperate issue at all.

 

I'm not saying telling someone that they are wrong is wrong - I'm saying lacking common courtesy while you're doing it is wrong.

 

This is where it gets slightly murky - I agree that presenting it badly, and not giving supporting evidence is wrong as well, but that's a by-product (sp?) of not caring enough to give them evidence.* However, even if you give them evidence, you cannot do it with a "I'm right because of X, Y, and Z, so they must be corrected", it needs to be done with "They have some mistakes, let me help them, I'll use X, Y, and Z as examples".

 

Do you get what I'm saying? You can present teh evidence all you want, and you can ignore them if they choose not to listen, but does that really help, or does that simply tell them that the BnC isn't worth coming to?

 

Seriously, dude. It's linked on the main page of the Liber. It would have taken you ten seconds to look.

 

I know... I know. Don't worry, it won't happen again, I tend to learn from my mistakes.

 

----------------

 

 

KHK - That may have been the most logical and honest post on this thread. A thanks, then, before I argue my point.

 

There is one fundamental flaw, however, in almost the very first line. Cold and callous is what I'm decrying, what is wrong - most of the time, as I said, it merely drives people off. Those it does not are the ones who comment on this issue today - they were stubborn/mature/wise enough to either change their work or at the very least edit out the ridiculus bits. Compare the number of people commenting on this thread, to the number of people who enter and start a thread in the Liber.

 

Sometimes it is better. In the majority of cases, it is as you yourself have said - "people who feel the need to write more to justify being different are more insecure than those who find a way to fit in the cracks with what they make"

 

Your response to this... is cold and callous? I understand where you are coming from - you explained it quite well - but it really doesn't help the people who need the help the most.

 

Those who fall somewhere between the perservers and the ones who need to be different, the ones who are just willfully stubborn, are the exception. For those like poor Deric, this is where logic and evidence actually does need to applied. It just needs to be done with common courtesy, instead of condescendion.

 

---------

 

Renatus -

 

See my disagreement with KHK. The ones who change because of being beaten in the face with fluff are the ones who comment here today.

 

And while I agree you are opening yourself to criticism to posting here, that doesn't give an excuse for the criticism to be harsh and unforgiving when it could work as easily as kindness.

 

-----------

 

Ydalir -

 

Honesty is the best policy, yes. I'm saying you don't need to be rude to do it - you provided four examples yourself. I'm saying those who are unnecessarily rude need to be kinder, because the majority will not be helped, merely driven off.

 

And what about those of us with three words in our name? :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm wondering where I fit in to that categorisation.. I have three names for a start :D

[Ferrata]

And what about those of us with three words in our name?

You don't even deserve a mention ;)

 

I know this could be seen as negative for Liber morale, but at the moment I am finding it highly enlightening. I am disagree with some comments, agreeing with others and not always on a post-by-post pattern, it is even within posts. Even those I usually disagree with I am agreeing with on some points.

 

As the local Castellan around here, anything I can learn about how the local rabble feel is always useful. You can't repress thoughs you don't know :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I saw we shoot everyone who even thinks about attempting to complete an IA/IT.. There, problem sorted. Or we could all act like adults.

 

Or something.

 

*mental shrug*

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Honestly I think a thread that allows people to blow off steam and tell what they really think is nothing but a good thing, so long as everyone understands this isn't a place to argue, sledge each other or let their dissatisfaction with each others behavior or remarks become the focus.

 

You state what you think, but you don't react to others unless you're seriously discussing something without attacking the one who wrote it.

 

I'm saying those who are unnecessarily rude need to be kinder, because the majority will not be helped, merely driven off.

 

Now see this is where we have the problem. There is a difference between being blunt and being insulting.

 

Being blunt - while not always nice for the person on the receiving end - is favorable, for me at least. Being insulted is different.

 

While yes it's complicated it can be boiled down to a few variables in my eyes.

 

There is being blunt and then relating that opinion with condescending remarks, thinly veiled attacks on the Author's character and general arrogant, dickish behavior that more than a few of us have been wont to display here and there. That is what I don't like. Be as blunt as you like but if you are insulting in the same post any good advice you may have given will be thrown out like the baby with the bathwater as the person you're advising will dig his heels in and get defensive.

 

Then on the other side of the coin is being over-sensitive. There are plenty of people who mistake a blunt listing of their IA's flaws and even the accompanying advice as a personal slight, as if their chapter is an extension of their own ego and react as such.

 

This is where the real problems arise, as the person giving the critique is pissed off that they've essentially been given the short shrift and even though they were trying to help have been bashed simply for - in their mind - giving up their time and attention to another's work and then being lambasted for it.

 

The reason the latter example is worse is because it builds animosity on both sides of the fence. The Author can and and many times will rail against the injustice of an overly harsh forum and perhaps leave. Worse is when they stay and turn something small into a huge problem that eventually draws Ferrata in with the pain-stick to keep everyone in line.

 

Then there are the times when some random passerby takes a look at the argument and voices a 'it's a free world!' argument in the Authors favor. Then things spiral out of control as more and more people take sides and the topic not only gets derailed but then tends to turn into a battleground for whatever ideas are being disputed in the first place.

 

It's a pain. As one of the 'groups' that we all know we belong to that typically sticks together, this can turn into something akin to WWF Tag-Team matches as people argue and riff off of each other. Typically the random passerby's also multiply and join the author with the exact same argument as the rest of us are trying to either get the OP to listen to reason or battling with them futilely.

 

Incidentally, this is when the more mellow of our little community come in most handy as they tend to diffuse the tension with a gentle, well thought out and reasonable post that he Author will most likely listen to since it's not someone trying to murder him for being an (perceived) idiot.

 

 

 

On reflection a lot of threads go the same way. The Author posts, the criticism is leveled. If the Author gets defensive and a furor erupts, the mellow guys come along and get the Author to reason things out since as I said earlier, they are more likely to listen to a reasonable fellow when everyone else is trying to burn them at the stake.

 

I could go on and on and on about the intricacies that I seem to have noticed between the types of posters here in the Liber. I'm sure other people could make many observations about me too (many probably not too favorable), but as I said earlier this is just how I see it.

 

Sometimes the forum explodes in a riot over something and the argument will bleed over into multiple threads. However, sometimes the Liber functions like an exceedingly dysfunctional family and I like that.

 

As one of the less moderates however, I'd prefer if the random idiots didn't drop by to disrupt the flow of C&C by arguing for 'it's a free world/country/starship/forum!' line. It's not helpful at all.

 

 

Your response to this... is cold and callous? I understand where you are coming from - you explained it quite well - but it really doesn't help the people who need the help the most.

 

While we're all discussing this problem to a greater or lesser extent (this thread needs retitling, by the way), everyone seems to be talking about the one giving the criticism.

 

 

What, he's the one holding the hammer that's about to smash into all your hard work and bring it crumbling down? Yes, you're going to feel hurt at some point, disappointed or downright defensive about your work. Yes there are times when this is appropriate but that isn't what we're talking about here is it?

 

This isn't defiance in the face of bad-criticism or advice, this isn't a stand against unreasonable flak or bad behavior this is about letting your ego colour the constructive criticism and advice that another Liberite is taking the time out of his day to express to you in order to help you. To help you.

 

Just as you'd like your posters to have the courtesy to address you as you'd like, you can also spare the time to not be reactionary and actually take what they say without getting emotionally involved. Not only that but this is a text-based medium, you can't always assume what you're getting from someone's post is how they meant it at all. The attitude you are assigning something could be totally wrong and you've got to be accountable for jumping to the wrong conclusion (as so many people do).

 

To be honest, you yourself are guilty of this on more than one occasion as well, DAT, as am I and probably all of us at one stage or other.

 

because the majority will not be helped, merely driven off.

 

Honestly, people that are committed to actually improving their work will stay. Those that are here for praise (virtually everyone else) are those that are the most easily driven off when they see that they won't easily get it without doing some work.

 

If you're new to the hobby that's different. I can see someone new being driven off by the level of detail and assumption of knowledge that most of us unreasonably expect straight out of the gate. However in the end whether you stay or not really is a measure of your own commitment to the work we do here, nothing more, nothing less.

 

I'm sure plenty of us have horror stories of when we first arrived in the Liber and how we got our ideas ripped to shreds in plenty of disheartening ways, but we stayed.

 

 

Many of the problems being voiced here are common. We're a community here. A microcosm of a larger community that is itself relative to the wider society around us. We want to be treated as we wish, we don't always get that. Some people are closed minded and petty, some people are rude and others are cynical.

 

A lot of these things are largely unavoidable since we are a community of people, of human beings and we're all flawed. We try to mitigate each others shortcomings in many ways around here and that's admirable but you've got to take the good with the bad. Does this mean we should let people get away with bad behavior? No, but we shouldn't expect everyone to be saints either.

 

 

We're dealing with human emotion, intellect and ego interacting over an imperfect means, by a text based message board, we're going to have problems, but don't let them cloud your view of what is a wonderful place to be a part of.

 

I can hear a lot of you grumbling that you've no idea what I'm going on about since we're discussing reactions to fluff, but it's all related and you can't easily separate one from the other.

 

 

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;) :to:

 

I think I got lost somewhere and started ranting again. I'm going to bed. Don't burn me while I'm asleep... I'm looking at you Ferrata! :D

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I saw we shoot everyone who even thinks about attempting to complete an IA/IT.. There, problem sorted. Or we could all act like adults.

 

Or something.

 

*mental shrug*

What do you think this discussion is? Doing Irish jigs with the skill of a 2.5 year old? :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I saw we shoot everyone who even thinks about attempting to complete an IA/IT.. There, problem sorted. Or we could all act like adults.

 

Or something.

 

*mental shrug*

What do you think this discussion is? Doing Irish jigs with the skill of a 2.5 year old? :D

 

Honestly?

 

Some of the responses I've seen have been fairly petty, or ill-considered.. But by acting like adults I emant simply accepting that we will all disagree at some point and that even with substantiated points as to why we disagree that won't turn an argument.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

What do you think this discussion is? Doing Irish jigs with the skill of a 2.5 year old? :lol:

 

Honestly?

 

Some of the responses I've seen have been fairly petty, or ill-considered.. But by acting like adults I meant simply accepting that we will all disagree at some point and that even with substantiated points as to why we disagree that won't turn an argument.

Oh, of course we will disagree. I doubt that one side (although I hesitate to use the word) or another will 'win' (again, I hesitate to use said words). It's not about that, though, it's about... Different things to different posters. Myself, I am merely trying to make those who post new ideas feel selcomed, if incorrect, as opposed to feeling rejected because they didn't know everything there is to know about the fluff.

 

EDIT: What this discussion is about to the other posters, you have to ask them.

 

If they do know a fair bit about the fluff and still make ridiculus IAs/ITs...? Then they deserve to be corrected harshly. But the first assumption should be that they don't know until proven otherwise.

[Ecritter]

I think the main thing we have to remember is that this is all for a game, and that game is based in science fiction. Therefore, anything is possible and there is no right or wrong.

 

I think most of the problems come when people forget this and take things way too seriously.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

And while I made a huge long rant a lot of other people posted and now everyone will breeze past my ramblings. Fair play. :lol:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

And while I made a huge long rant a lot of other people posted and now everyone will breeze past my ramblings. Fair play. :lol:

 

The people who matter read your ramblings.. Like me, for example.

[Octavulg]

DAT:

 

And this is where we are not understanding each other, because it isn't truly a seperate issue at all.

 

Yes, it is. One is a question of what people are allowed to do, and one is a question of how they should do it. It's concept v. execution.

 

Compare the number of people commenting on this thread, to the number of people who enter and start a thread in the Liber.

 

People give up on their IAs or the Liber for dozens of reasons. I mean, is Commissar Molotov not posting in this thread because we were mean to him once a few years ago?

 

The majority of people who come to the forum want help with what they're doing and not much else. They don't look at what other people do. Hell, most of them don't even stick with with what they're doing - writing things takes time, and a lot of people give up on their own.

 

Some people give up because people aren't helping them the way they'd like. But some of those people would give up no matter what. And some of what those people expect is unreasonable.

 

The problem is confined to how a few people are framing their comments, not in the concept of criticism itself.

 

* * *

 

Ferrata:

 

Are you looking at my computer? I am currently working on changing the "Don'ts" to be more fluff backed instead of just saying that they are. Thankfully, the Female Marine discussion was

already done for me by me (and Doctor Thunder).

 

Omniscience is a difficult cross to bear, yet I endure. :P

 

* * *

 

Renatus:

 

Very well said. :lol:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

DAT:

 

And this is where we are not understanding each other, because it isn't truly a seperate issue at all.

 

Yes, it is. One is a question of what people are allowed to do, and one is a question of how they should do it. It's concept v. execution.

 

Compare the number of people commenting on this thread, to the number of people who enter and start a thread in the Liber.

 

People give up on their IAs or the Liber for dozens of reasons. I mean, is Commissar Molotov not posting in this thread because we were mean to him once a few years ago?

 

The majority of people who come to the forum want help with what they're doing and not much else. They don't look at what other people do. Hell, most of them don't even stick with what they're doing - writing things takes time, and a lot of people give up on their own.

 

Some people give up because people aren't helping them the way they'd like. But some of those people would give up no matter what. And some of what those people expect is unreasonable.

 

The problem is confined to how a few people are framing their comments, not in the concept of criticism itself.

We aren't argueing concept though. We are arguing execution... have we not agreed that evidence and explanation is necessary? Another mistake in my part, then, in explanation and wording.

 

Commissar Molotov gave up for whatever reason, and that's fine... But he was one of the editors. One of those who was willing to perservere. Not all do that.

 

I'm willing to bet that crushing of brain-children is one of the main reasons that people leave the Liber. How many of you wished to do so when you introduced your first concept to the Liber? Again, few are willing to perservere after seeing their ideas crushed.

 

I'm saying we shouldn't crush the ideas, instead kindly escort them from the premises. Those who will react the same anyways will react the same. The people who have unreasonable expectations will find that their expectations are unreasonable regardless. Neither is an excuse to be rude when you could be kind.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I, for one, come to the Liber because I need the help.. It's hard to really push on without input from other knowledgable people, for me at least, so the Liber represents a font of knowledge - or at the very least someone to say "No, and this is why..."